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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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PosterThread
Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 6:55:06
#1821 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

@hth313

Regarding AROS ontop of AOS;

I think using AROS natively is being worked on, by wava and Olaf (and Kalamate too now?).
And it would be better resourceusage to use AROS directly instead of thru a layer (AOS).

Im sure there are usercase situations where you want to use other OS's ontop of AOS, during development or whatnot.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 7:34:53
#1822 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

And Gunnar commented on the Enforcer topic;

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=21155&x=1&z=tSL-pq

Quote:

Regarding the Enforcer question.

AMIGA OS has a 4 GB (32bit) address range.
By design AMIGA OS can _NOT_ protect any used memory from getting overwritten. Amiga OS can not prevent crashing.

You can not detect access to other programs memory.
You can not prevent this.

What you can do, is "detect" access to unused memory
or unused address ranges.
This can also be done on Apollo 68080 CPU.

This will NOT help you detect programming errors which write in other programs memory. But it can detect programming errors going into "random" address that are unused.

APOLLO 68080 has the HW support for this.
If someone wants then he/she could add support for this into Enforcer.

Last edited by Overflow on 29-Jun-2019 at 07:35 AM.

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 10:07:05
#1823 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
@hth313

And it would be better resourceusage to use AROS directly instead of thru a layer (AOS).


thats misunderstanding. hth refers to the method in which aros is being started, namely soft kicked. after aros kickstart has been mapped and a reboot executed it is being used instead of the genuine one. thats as native as it gets and there is no active amiga layer or anything on top of it, underneath nor anywhere.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 10:15:27
#1824 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

@wawa

Ahh. Thanks ^^

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wawa 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 10:38:32
#1825 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Overflow

hth in fact is taking part with aros development.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 10:52:46
#1826 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1605
From: Norway

@wawa

Hey, then its great he shares his knowledge, and educates the illiterate filthy masses (me)

Considering the mess that is AOS x, I really hope AROS will be a viable OS for Apollo/Vampire overall.

Last edited by Overflow on 29-Jun-2019 at 10:53 AM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 29-Jun-2019 15:09:55
#1827 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 149
From: Unknown

Amiga is hobby, and will be a hobby.
Amiga is not a job and not will be a job.
There are more important things in life than amiga like for example family and own buissnes/first time job.
Some idiots in this community think that most important thing is price/performance ratio.
They are wrong.
What is important is time.
Amiga is hobby and time which may be wasted for this hobby is limited.
It is not important that Amiga NG is overpriced.
It is important that Amiga NG provide necesary tools for developers that shorten development time.
And vampire has not necesary tools for developers,
Some may not like this, but if vampire team will not provide necesary tools for developers,
developers will be using Amiga NG and Amiga 68k with MMU instead of vampire.
Proper way to handle this is to solve problems with MMU.
Not pathetic try to convice that MMU is not needed.



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agami 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 1-Jul-2019 7:23:26
#1828 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 552
From: Melbourne, Australia

@ppcamiga1

Let me try.

Amiga didn't start as a hobby, so it needn't be just a hobby.
Amiga used to be a job and can be a job again.
What is important in life in entirely subjective, which means it's up to each person to decide for themselves.
Some misguided fools in this community think that price/performance ratio is not important.
There is no right or wrong, only opinion. But it's the opinion of the majority that seeking value for money in a mature and commoditised computing market is a sane action.
Exactly because time is important we shouldn't waste it on dead-end strategies. Also, time is money.
All time is limited, irrespective of the activity.
It is very important that Amiga NG is overpriced: It's Economics 101.
Providing tools for Amiga NG developers will not make any meaningful difference.
Vampire is behind on the tools, and there should be more 68k development tools coming.
Some may not like this, but Amiga NG real world performance of many applications is easily matched by the Vampire FPGA '080.
Like most developers, Vampire developers have set priorities: MMU is on the list but it is not a high priority.
It is indeed a fact that much of the software written for Amiga 68k does not require, nor is it able to take advantage of an MMU. I used an Amiga for many years before finally one day buying an '040 accelerator board which had MMU. I can count on the fingers of one hand the software titles I had that supported MMU.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 1-Jul-2019 20:30:13
#1829 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1321
From: Trondheim, Norway

@agami

Quote:

MMU is on the list but it is not a high priority.

Wrong, if you had been paying attention to what Gunnar is writing, you would understand that MMU is very much there already, and it is used extensively already, but not from any software running on AmigaOS (but rather "under" it) - without the MMU, AmigaOS would not work at all on Vampire, giving users access to the MMU would crash the whole system.

Last edited by kolla on 01-Jul-2019 at 08:30 PM.

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 3-Jul-2019 14:32:26
#1830 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 326
From: Unknown

@kolla
Quote:

kolla wrote:
@agami

Quote:

MMU is on the list but it is not a high priority.

Wrong, if you had been paying attention to what Gunnar is writing, you would understand that MMU is very much there already, and it is used extensively already, but not from any software running on AmigaOS (but rather "under" it) - without the MMU, AmigaOS would not work at all on Vampire, giving users access to the MMU would crash the whole system.

Come on now how would that follow? If access to the MMU is handled right it wouldn't be a problem even if you're correct about it being used already.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 3-Jul-2019 17:03:11
#1831 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1321
From: Trondheim, Norway

@megol

Of course, but to "handle it right" you would first have to know the MMU, and then have to know how the core is already using it (to "fool" Amiga OS in various ways I'm speculating .. just a random made up potential use "oh you thought you were copying data from one memory address space to another? Noticed how fast it was? Well, I just temporarily mapped the address space you copied to, to the same memory you copied from - you cannot tell the difference"). You essentially need to know the core, intimately.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-Jul-2019 3:39:20
#1832 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 149
From: Unknown

@agami

Amiga is hobby, and will be a hobby.
Amiga is not a job and not will be a job.
There are more important things in life than amiga like for example family and own buissnes/first time job.
Some pathetic idiots in this community think that most important thing is price/performance ratio.
They are wrong.
What is important is time.
Amiga is hobby and time which may be wasted for this hobby is limited.
It is not important that Amiga NG is overpriced.
What is important is that Amiga NG provide necesary tools for developers that shorten development time and vampire not.

vampire is as fast as amiga NG only in cheated bencmarks made by vampire team, in real world aplications vampire is hundred time slower than Amiga NG.

I use only one software on Amiga NG that use mmu, it is gdb, and this is enough.

vampire followers have to accept that for developers Amiga NG/real 68k 030+ is better, or provide necessary tools.
They may use of course not compatible mmu if they want. It is not important as long as necessary tools works.

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bhabbott 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-Jul-2019 6:17:24
#1833 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 32
From: Unknown

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:

Amiga is hobby and time which may be wasted for this hobby is limited.
True, but 'wasting time' is what hobbies are all about. It's the doing that hobbyists enjoy. So why get upset about it taking a little longer?

Quote:
It is not important that Amiga NG is overpriced.
NG being overpriced is good, because then I'm not tempted to buy it (already got way too many computers that I will never do anything with, and having to learn the idiosyncrasies of yet another OS is not something I look forward to).

Quote:
What is important is that Amiga NG provide necesary tools for developers that shorten development time and vampire not.
Not for this developer it isn't. Just having all that raw power in a classic Amiga is enough for me. Why is it that some Amiga owners are never satisfied with what they have?

Quote:
vampire is as fast as amiga NG only in cheated bencmarks made by vampire team, in real world aplications vampire is hundred time slower than Amiga NG.
Who cares? I know what the Vampire can do in my A600 compared to my other Amigas, and that is plenty enough. I don't want a machine that is a hundred times faster than that, as it would just encourage development of bloatware that won't work on lesser machines.

Quote:
vampire followers have to accept that for developers Amiga NG/real 68k 030+ is better,
030 MMU is better for catching illegal memory accesses with Enforcer, but Vampire is many times faster compiling. So it depends on what is more important to you. I program my A1200 in assembler so you might think using Enforcer would be mandatory, yet I can't remember the last time it had a hit. Good programming practices make it redundant (and relying on it to catch bugs is not good practice!). For compiling C code I use the Vampire because I tend to run out of patience on the A1200. But again, with good programming practices the kind of bugs you need an MMU to pick up shouldn't occur anyway.

I'm not saying having MMU development tools for the Vampire wouldn't be nice, it's just not a priority for me. If I just wanted to develop large projects as quickly as possible I would use a PC, rather than playing around with 30 year old technology - but then I wouldn't have the enjoyment of doing it on the Amiga, where the challenge of working within its limitations is part of the fun!

Last edited by bhabbott on 04-Jul-2019 at 06:18 AM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 04-Jul-2019 at 06:17 AM.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 4-Jul-2019 16:23:06
#1834 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1321
From: Trondheim, Norway

Right, but not everyone who release some software are equally good at it. The tools are more used to find and get rid of broken software others have written, typically by slightly advanced users. Also, even the cleverest developer may not have thought of all corner cases their software will end up in, and rely on users being able to submit detailed bug reports. With Vampire, such bug reporting will just have to go through "the team" for now.

Last edited by kolla on 04-Jul-2019 at 04:27 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 5-Jul-2019 6:54:52
#1835 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 149
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

Quote:
True, but 'wasting time' is what hobbies are all about. It's the doing that hobbyists enjoy. So why get upset about it taking a little longer?


hobby is wasting time for something creative and/or pleasure.
Wasting significant amount of time because platform does not provide necessary tools is stupid.

Quote:
030 MMU is better for catching illegal memory accesses with Enforcer, but Vampire is many times faster compiling.


Buy Amiga NG, You will have enforcer like tools AND faster compiling.

Rest of what You wrote is usual and boring.

vampire has not tools for c , use asm.
vampire is too slow for develop large project use pc.

It is better to spend little more and have fast Amiga with necessary tools.

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bennymee 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 5-Jul-2019 7:16:11
#1836 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 554
From: Netherlands

@ppcamiga1

Spend more, in money ? My Sam460ex was actually less then my A600+Vampire in cash.



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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 5-Jul-2019 11:29:58
#1837 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5615
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

no professional developer uses embedded hardware or FPGA for development

you use fastest hardware available (in most cases PC) for cross-compiling

serious developer do not develop for amiga anyway (at least if you have to earn your living with it)

the few who develop do it for fun

Last edited by OlafS25 on 05-Jul-2019 at 03:51 PM.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 17-Jul-2019 11:28:54
#1838 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

Gunnar posted a thread on Apollo Core forums:

they are porting Diablo to Vampire

Have a look


Everything started HERE

Last edited by ErikBauer on 17-Jul-2019 at 11:31 AM.
Last edited by ErikBauer on 17-Jul-2019 at 11:29 AM.

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 17-Jul-2019 11:32:11
#1839 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

Also, Apollo team is improving Sprites on SAGA:



Thread Here


Here's a Youtube Video that shows what can be achieved by using ONLY SPRITES and a small copperlist on the background.
Yes, the parallax scrolling is handled by using only SAGA sprites.

Enjoy!

Last edited by ErikBauer on 17-Jul-2019 at 11:54 AM.
Last edited by ErikBauer on 17-Jul-2019 at 11:34 AM.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 17-Jul-2019 12:03:21
#1840 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1321
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Cross compiling for "wrong endian" can be a challenge though, as build scripts, makefiles, toolkits etc easily come out with the wrong result when they run their tests on the build system.

A funny example - I used to cross-build for Linux/m68k, and at some point I noticed how ssh stopped working when I was using cross-built packages. The odd thing was that the ssh client worked just fine with the localhost sshd. Well, I shrugged it off for the time. Later, as I was building for big-endian ARM (but natively, not cross-building), it happened again.. so I fired up the old 68k build and to my amusement I could log in back and forth over ssh on the two broken systems, one armeb, and one cross-built 68k. I traced it down to openssl and optimistic ways to detect endianes.

I have no doubt that getting rid of such "complications" is one reason almost all embedded systems are now little-endian, as almost all cross-building is taking place on little-endian PCs.

M68k however, remains big-endian, and hence cross-building on PC comes with an extra vector of complection.

Oh - and I stopped using cross-building for m68k and instead went for building inside emulator (aranym first, later also qemu).

Last edited by kolla on 17-Jul-2019 at 12:06 PM.

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