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      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
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BigD 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 0:04:39
#1981 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5387
From: UK

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote:
Some exciting news about the new V4 SAGA Sound Chip presented by Gunnar here:

Linky


Gunnar had me at 16 channels

Last edited by BigD on 19-May-2020 at 12:06 AM.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 7:50:05
#1982 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1521
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote:
Linky


There, I fixed the link for you - remeber that the ampersand needs to be written as an html entity, also in links - so & :)

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 8:05:14
#1983 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1521
From: Trondheim, Norway

Quote:

Looking back now, AHI was a misguided approach for which is no need anymore. AHI has actually a very sad story behind, as you might know. The author of AHI got so frustrated about the performance loss of AHI mixing that he got mentally depressed, needed psychiatrists treatment and totally stopped coding.


Typical utter irrelevant rubbish that is to be expected from Gunnar. Thomas Richter does the same - what is it with these “alpha nerd” Germans and their tendencies to making ridiculous claims about the mental state of people they disagree with? Perhaps it is time to take legal actions against such obvious attempts at defamations.

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evilFrog 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 9:21:32
#1984 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2004
Posts: 359
From: UK

@kolla

Aye. In a world where we have AROS, MorphOS, OS3, 3.X, OS4, UAE, Vampire... there has never been a better argument in my eyes for things like P96, CGX, and AHI.

This is one of the saddest parts of it for me. I strongly believe the old saying that "every dollar you spend is a vote for the way you want the world to be". The tech in the Vampire camp is really exciting to me... but then I see things like that and I just can’t bring myself to buy.

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bennymee 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 10:41:48
#1985 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 595
From: Netherlands

@evilFrog

Gunnar wrote that AHI allready is working on the Vampire, also Picasso96 is running. That is good isn't it ?

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 11:29:02
#1986 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 350
From: Unknown

@kolla

Strong narcissism, likely not strong enough to be a personality disorder?

A stupid piece of *redacted* complaining about their solution not being the standard 24(!!!) years after the release of something that actually existed and used? That's beyond delusional.

I've suggested a solution that would expand legacy hardware capability and add 32-64 audio channels with very little extra hardware, with a little more hardware 2D/3D positioning of each channel. Should we be impressed by something that doesn't compare with the 1992 Gravis Ultrasound (32 audio channels) or Atari Falcon (8 HW channels + Audio DSP)? Things existing 28(!!!!) years ago?!?

*** ******* **** ****!!!

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BSzili 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 13:15:37
#1987 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@kolla

He conveniently left out the fact that that Martin Blom got depressed about the performance of AHI on PowerPC, not 68k

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megol 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 15:21:53
#1988 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 350
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Yeah, and that it's probably just a rumor. Don't think there's any reason to talk about it at all.

BTW 1987 posts in this thread right now. Best year, best thread(?).

Last edited by megol on 19-May-2020 at 03:28 PM.

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 17:21:05
#1989 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4050
From: Rhode Island

Almost 2 years ago, I got banned to asking for a SUPER AKIKO.

Gunnar called it a useless chip.

Gunnar's execrement-guzzlers rallied behind him.

I got banned for also mentioning creating a highly parallelized version that could do perhaps 1k bytes at a time instead of 32 and adding other functions for 3D processing...and calling his CELL-processor/PS3 approach to a cpu-centric machine is not the true Amiga spirit and that using custom chips was.
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=17188

Meanwhile almost 2 year later...now he brags about how he uses AKIKO to do C2P icon conversions...
http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=28256&order=&x=1

This is why I will never buy a Vampire.

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coldacid 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 18:41:54
#1990 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2019
Posts: 41
From: Candinavia

This is starting to make me regret having interest in the Vampire tech. Unfortunately it doesn't look like there's anything else offering even similar bang:buck ratio, never mind better.

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bennymee 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 19:21:42
#1991 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 595
From: Netherlands

@coldacid

The Vampire is stil a great product imho! You can't please everybody.

But alternatives are the Warp boards for the Amiga classic.

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bennymee 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 19:26:34
#1992 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 595
From: Netherlands

@BSzili

Wow, that story - on his website which is still running - is >20 years old now !


At least the source code of AHI is now available, but nobody did something with it until today.

http://martin.blom.org/ds/

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coldacid 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 19:27:44
#1993 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Oct-2019
Posts: 41
From: Candinavia

@bennymee

The problem with the Warp boards is that they require having functional classic Amiga hardware in the first place, the cost of which right now is astronomical. In other words, bang:buck ratio is pretty damn poor.

The Vampire is indeed great hardware, and I still intend to get myself a V4SA. But the supply issues and all-around bad attitude of the Apollo team really leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and makes me wish there were decent and reasonably-priced alternatives.

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ealm 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 19:38:33
#1994 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 14-Jun-2003
Posts: 112
From: Unknown

I don't agree that the Vampire team has a bad attitude. Gunnar has much of an attitude, yes and in a larger organization he wouldn't handle external communication. But like the rest of the Amiga world today the Vampire team is a small group of idealists and I rather see a hardware genius like Gunnar there even if he isn't smooth with people. I mean, so what, I'm not buying a V4 to make friends with the developer.

I respect the entire Vampire team, including Gunnar, highly for what they do: develop classic Amiga 68k hardware. Something that hasn't really been done on a fundamental level like this since the early 90's.

PS. It's pretty hilarious that people still after 20 years don't realize that Martin Bloms goodbye letter is highly sarcastic.

Last edited by ealm on 19-May-2020 at 07:39 PM.

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 20:25:53
#1995 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4050
From: Rhode Island

@ealm

I think sarcasm is lost on non-native English readers. It was a humorous read.

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evilFrog 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 21:55:30
#1996 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2004
Posts: 359
From: UK

@bennymee

Quote:

bennymee wrote:
@evilFrog

Gunnar wrote that AHI allready is working on the Vampire, also Picasso96 is running. That is good isn't it ?


Sure is. I was aware of P96 in any case, and AHI doesn’t surprise me. But, the tech isn’t the thing that stops me.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 22:24:35
#1997 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 809
From: Kansas

Quote:

ealm wrote:
I don't agree that the Vampire team has a bad attitude. Gunnar has much of an attitude, yes and in a larger organization he wouldn't handle external communication. But like the rest of the Amiga world today the Vampire team is a small group of idealists and I rather see a hardware genius like Gunnar there even if he isn't smooth with people. I mean, so what, I'm not buying a V4 to make friends with the developer.

I respect the entire Vampire team, including Gunnar, highly for what they do: develop classic Amiga 68k hardware. Something that hasn't really been done on a fundamental level like this since the early 90's.


Don't be fooled by the word "team". Is a dictatorship a team effort? Narcissists demand complete loyalty turning those they can manipulate into servants and attacking those who "betray them" or stand in the way of their goals. Psychopaths are devoid of morality and empathy, while I believe narcissists have some but have trouble controlling their compulsive behavior. They will attack, manipulate and use, "especially", those closest to them that they love most. How do I know? My mother is a narcissist.

Quote:

PS. It's pretty hilarious that people still after 20 years don't realize that Martin Bloms goodbye letter is highly sarcastic.


Sarcasm helps to deal with the frustration but I expect the problems were real. EGCS generated very poor code and was replaced by GCC. PPC assembler is much more difficult to program and get good performance from. The 68060 did outperform higher clocked PPC chips while using a fraction of the caches, memory bandwidth, memory, units, etc. and having inferior compiler support. PPC was divided from the beginning with PowerUP, WarpOS, MOS and AmigaOS 4 divisions making development and support more difficult. Martin's idea with AHI was to introduce standardization while the Amiga was dividing and disappearing. Amiga was going nowhere. I abandoned all my development for the Amiga due to some of the same reasons, people who made development more difficult and because it really doesn't make sense anymore with expensive and rare hardware. The Amiga is dead, RIP.

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Fl@sh 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 19-May-2020 23:23:16
#1998 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 168
From: Napoli - Italy

@matthey

Quote:
PPC assembler is much more difficult to program and get good performance from


IMHO it's the exact opposite
I found ppc assembly much more advanced and simple to use than every else.
Yes.. even considering the old 68k used in many schools as educational language.
I.e. One of the most fun in ppc asm was his simd programming.

It's also really simple to get the max from ppc code without looking for all little tricks used in 68k. The computational power is at least 10x on a g4, let using us more recent software.

Coming back to thread until the apollo team will not develop a chip with a power comparable to a powerpc like a g4, it will be not a my interest considering it only as retrocomouting.

Maybe in future they could use much faster fpga ad make a great step forward.

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 4:41:00
#1999 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 809
From: Kansas

Quote:

Fl@sh wrote:
IMHO it's the exact opposite
I found ppc assembly much more advanced and simple to use than every else.
Yes.. even considering the old 68k used in many schools as educational language.
I.e. One of the most fun in ppc asm was his simd programming.

It's also really simple to get the max from ppc code without looking for all little tricks used in 68k. The computational power is at least 10x on a g4, let using us more recent software.


Peephole optimizing should be done automatically by the assembler. Scheduling and bubbles are what you need to worry about for superscalar pipelined CPUs. Let's take a look at 68060 vs PPC 604e code for a simple strlen() function.

size_t d0=strlen(*str a0)
;inline start
strlen:
lea (1,a0),a1
.loop:
tst.b (a0)+
bne .loop
sub.l a1,a0
move.l a0,d0
;inline end

or smaller code but not as readable...

size_t d0=strlen(*str a0)
;inline start
strlen:
move.l a0,d0
.loop:
tst.b (a0)+
bne .loop
sub.l a0,d0
not.l d0
;inline end

Example 68060 execution using the string "test" and assuming everything is cached.
move.l a0,d0 ; pOEP 1
tst.b (a0)+ ; sOEP 1
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
tst.b (a0)+ ; pOEP 2
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
tst.b (a0)+ ; pOEP 3
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
tst.b (a0)+ ; pOEP 4
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
tst.b (a0)+ ; pOEP 5
bne .loop ; predicted incorrectly as taken 12
sub.l a0,d0 ; pOEP 13
not.l d0 ; pOEP 14
Total: 14 cycles, 10 bytes

size_t r3=strlen(*str r3)
;inline start
strlen:
subi 4,3,1
.loop:
lbzu 0,1(4)
cmpwi 0,0
bne .loop
sub 3,4,3
;inline end

Example PPC 604e execution using the string "test" and assuming everything is cached.
subi 4,3,1 ; 1
lbzu 0,1(4) ; 1
2 cycle load-use bubble
cmpwi 0,0 ; 4
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
lbzu 0,1(4) ; 4
2 cycle load-use bubble
cmpwi 0,0 ; 7
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
lbzu 0,1(4) ; 7
2 cycle load-use bubble
cmpwi 0,0 ; 10
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
lbzu 0,1(4) ; 10
2 cycle load-use bubble
cmpwi 0,0 ; 13
bne .loop ; predicted correctly as taken
lbzu 0,1(4) ; 13
2 cycle load-use bubble
cmpwi 0,0 ; 16
bne .loop ; predicted incorrectly as taken 20
sub 3,4,3 ; 21
Total: 21 cycles, 20 bytes

I'm no expert in PPC assembler so feel free to point out any mistakes or optimizations. Good luck unrolling the PPC code to remove the load-use bubbles. The PPC code is already twice the size and significantly more cycles. A little more complex function like strcpy() gets even worse for the PPC. I don't think many people will agree with you that the PPC code is easier to read than the 68k code either. Where were you during the x86 vs PPC wars when x86 trounced PPC due in large part to x86 assembler optimizations. Assembler coders preferred ugly x86 assembler to cryptic PPC assembler too.

Quote:

Coming back to thread until the apollo team will not develop a chip with a power comparable to a powerpc like a g4, it will be not a my interest considering it only as retrocomouting.


The chances of developing a 68k chip as powerful as a PPC G4 are probably better than developing another PPC chip as powerful as the G4. There is always POWER for the rich and elitist Amiga users just don't expect any software for an even smaller user base.

Last edited by matthey on 20-May-2020 at 06:34 PM.

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CosmosUnivers 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 20-May-2020 9:08:02
#2000 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2007
Posts: 86
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:

PPC was divided from the beginning with PowerUP, WarpOS, MOS and AmigaOS 4 divisions making development and support more difficult. Martin's idea with AHI was to introduce standardization while the Amiga was dividing and disappearing.


It's because of hardware & software divisions we don't have (or very few) new softwares and coders now...

That's the reason they add the AMMX : a new niche inside a niche, to sink more deeply our computer...


Quote:

Amiga was going nowhere. I abandoned all my development for the Amiga due to some of the same reasons, people who made development more difficult and because it really doesn't make sense anymore with expensive and rare hardware.


Anyway, I don't care about the sinkers, and I still continue to code for fun and to NOT enter into their wanted destructive circle.

Stopping developement is what they want.


So my message to all Amiga developpers : do the exact opposite of what our Amiga elite do !

Sell hardware at resonnable price, keep unity (never add a new division), produce good work to be proud of yourself (not for fame)... That's the only way to be POSITIVE and CONSTRUCTIVE for the our computer...


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