@pavlor

Quote:

Not yet. Close to 500 MHz G3 on my hardware.

That IS better than Amiga Forever emulating a Phase 5 PPC board.
But its not in the range of a 2.2 GHz P5020 or my 2.7 GHz G5 yet.

Or for that matter the board I think might work which would either be a 1.4 GHz T1042 or a 1.8 GHz T2080.

The integer performance figures posted for comparison don't surprise me either.
Of course, if we were to include a 68060 in the comparison...

@iggy @1Mouse

The PowerPC on a PCI(e) card is exactly what I proposed A-Eon should have done instead of a complete X1000 system several years back in an article I wrote for the Amiga Roundtable site.

Someone in this forum challenged me with "Don't just complain about A-Eon unless you have an alternative approach". So I wrote that developing a daughter board that would work with an existing low cost motherboard would have been a less costly and a faster to market exercise.

Yes, it would be like a PPC extended classic Amiga where the 68k classic components are replaced with off-the-shelf x86 components. There would be an x86 based OS that starts first, just enough to kickstart (see what I did there?) AmigaOS 4.x.

My article also covered a different software strategy, e.g. Talking to Adobe and paying them to port the PPC version of Adobe AIR to AmigaOS 4.x. The users would immediately get access to some existing apps, but also to have a more mature framework and platform for rapidly developing much needed AmigaOS 4.x apps.

And as you've already mentioned. The added benefit is that on such a hardware platform you could migrate from PPC to x86 incrementally. You could have the core OS functions on PPC, but you could have a h.264 decoder/encoder running on x86. Just like in the old WarpUP days.

Last edited by agami on 15-Dec-2015 at 03:19 AM.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami: the problem here is that anybody can have an idea, but it's has to be seen if it can work or not.

Technically speaking, there cannot be any hybrid platform, with some ported to x64 and some other left as PowerPC or even 68K code (which is the OS4 case for sure; I don't remember if MorphOS has still some 68K code not replaced by a PowerPC one).

It's the same reason why you don't see a 64-bit o.s. version of OS4/MorphOS: you cannot share resources with the legacy 32-bit PowerPC and 68K applications. With x64 is even worse, because it's (naturally) little endian.

What you have to resort with is something like WinUAE, with an isolated sandbox, and you have to define a protocol for communicating with the new o.s., and to share something in a controlled way.

The PowerPC card has to ship some memory too, because accessing the system one through the PCI-Express kills the performance, since the access latency is very high.

As you can see there are a lot of problems with such solution, and still you have no hybrid system.

The software solution (PowerPC emulated by WinUAE or QEMU standalone) is far much easier to achieve, and cheap also.

@cdimauro

Quote:

It'll be nice to see how a modern game runs on the topmost PowerPC machine.

Im sure will run great I hope the NX will show it

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Yep, ppc CPUs are a huge bottleneck for modern video cards.
Even my old gf 570 in my spare i7 gains about 60% vs. being in use in my former AROS PC (c2d@3.9ghz,... upgraded since). Being that a c2d at that frequency is significantly faster than any ppc CPU, its fair to assume that a ppc system, especially with its outdated PCI express interface will be lucky to see %50 of potential performance of a modern card, even if drivers were perfect.

The real problem when using a slow CPU though is bottom frame rates. Average might be OK, but when things get heavy things drop to an unplayable speed.

Also, the idea that a g5 can compare to anything but a modern toy laptop is laughable. Which is what atoms, a4/a6/a8,etc. laptops are...... cheap toys. They cope OK on the net, but they're not really intended as a proper general use system.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 15-Dec-2015 at 09:11 AM.

@agami

And how do you propose byte ordering be handled in said hypothetical hybrid system? :)

There's reasons people scoff at some of your "solutions".

@fishy_fis

Quote:

Yep, ppc CPUs are a huge bottleneck for modern video cards.

Depends what ppc you are you using, on what hardware architecture.

If was the cpu explain me how i make battlefield 3 was run at 1400x900 60fpson P4 dual with 7750HD GDR5 with a PCie->Pci adaptor... Arma 3 beta was gave me 1400x900 24fps
In this case what was making the bootleneck was the pci slot if i was increase the resolution the game was running at 1080p at 1 fps (Battlefield 3).

Im sure at 100000% if there was a modern game for ppc on quad g5 i will have good performance on it with only a new capable video board.
The quad G5 have Pcie 16x a 1.25 ghz bus speed .

http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html

Check here (all video did with an old 2005 GPU)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=698lVfoSvX0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXi7Y1raXbQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nytVd2xFjM

What make games need CPU are only physics and shadows and some post processing effects the others things today are all did by GPU ... for the physic if you have a physix nviida in hardware the cpu will be used less moore .

Last edited by tlosm on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:27 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 15-Dec-2015 at 10:26 AM.

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@fishy_fis @cdimauro
The hybrid part of the solution is an added bonus if somebody worked it out. Thanks for getting stuck on that one point.

The core of the article was about there being a better way to get AmigaOS 4.x compatible hardware to the Amiga community. The alternative proposed could have been executed much quicker, the final cost to the Amiga consumer would have been less, and there would be some software to run.

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@iggy

Quote:

That IS better than Amiga Forever emulating a Phase 5 PPC board.

As Amiga Forever uses WinUAE, performance should be the same (unless you try Blizzard603e emulation which is broken = slooooooooooooow ).

Quote:

The integer performance figures posted for comparison don't surprise me either.

Performance varies by benchmark: eg. mplayer is faster (pure CPU decoding) than SAM460. (note: really fast RAM plays probably great role here - if one believes Ragemem numbers cca 2000 MB/s...)

Last edited by pavlor on 15-Dec-2015 at 03:45 PM.

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote: @fishy_fis Quote: Yep, ppc CPUs are a huge bottleneck for modern video cards. Depends what ppc you are you using, on what hardware architecture. If was the cpu explain me how i make battlefield 3 was run at 1400x900 60fpson P4 dual with 7750HD GDR5 with a PCie->Pci adaptor... Arma 3 beta was gave me 1400x900 24fps In this case what was making the bootleneck was the pci slot if i was increase the resolution the game was running at 1080p at 1 fps (Battlefield 3). Im sure at 100000% if there was a modern game for ppc on quad g5 i will have good performance on it with only a new capable video board. The quad G5 have Pcie 16x a 1.25 ghz bus speed . http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html Check here (all video did with an old 2005 GPU) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=698lVfoSvX0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXi7Y1raXbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nytVd2xFjM What make games need CPU are only physics and shadows and some post processing effects the others things today are all did by GPU ... for the physic if you have a physix nviida in hardware the cpu will be used less moore .

Let me recap a bit.

You compared a MOBILE i5 (which is 2 cores / 4 threads instead of 4 cores; plus some other stuff missing) with an integrated HD 3000 graphic card (MOBILE version; less powerful) to a Quad G5 with a discrete GeForce 6600 GT, right?

And you did with Doom 3 and Quake 4, which are more than 10 years old games. So A BIT different from the "modern games" which I asked before.

What do you want to prove with such nonsensical test still remains up to you...


@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @fishy_fis @cdimauro The hybrid part of the solution is an added bonus if somebody worked it out. Thanks for getting stuck on that one point. The core of the article was about there being a better way to get AmigaOS 4.x compatible hardware to the Amiga community. The alternative proposed could have been executed much quicker, the final cost to the Amiga consumer would have been less, and there would be some software to run.

I don't know if it wasn't clear, but I repeat it again: there's and cannot be any "hybrid solution".

The two environments are totally different, and you can't have a franken-platform with part of the code running on the new architecture, and part on the PowerPC card. No way.

You end-up with something like WinUAE which runs the legacy PowerPC & 68K code under the host o.s., only sharing SOME resources (NO CODE!) in a limited and controlled manner.

So, it doesn't matter about reducing the final costs: there are no costs for an impossible solution.

Please, take a deeper look at the link already provided by Zylesea, which explains in more detail the problems and what's needed.

@cdimauro

Quote:

GeForce 6600 GT, right?

No 7800 Gtx (2005 video board) , are you say the INTEL HD is shitty GPU? whaha

Check better it was running Quake 4 mod evolved old game with totally new video graphic features ..

PS are you writing i5 mobile 2.3 ghz is shitty compared the G5 quad
PPS: in the video you was watching quake 4 was using 15% of 1 of the Core of the Quad

AMEN!!!!!!!

PPPS: i hope nx will be what i see in past rumors ... for now i dont had make errors about xbox one im better than Patcher

Last edited by tlosm on 15-Dec-2015 at 06:41 PM.

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@tlosm

What is "nx" ?

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@Sky7
Quote:

Was this a combination Motorola 680xx/Amiga AGA limitation thing that drove AmigaOS 4.x to be PowerPC only?

Because the PPC was the only available desktop platform available, with the right byte order.

@tommysammy

New Nintendo Console (hybrid) probably in CES we will see it ...
Someware was write will use Power8 core modded for the console

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MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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@fishy_fis


Your definition of utility is different than mine.
I don't play a lot of games.
The Core2Quad I am typing on has an Nvidia Quadro K600, which would not work too well for games.
I does wonders in Quadro enabled CAD programs though.

I had a G2 based mobile i7 I rather liked.
Compact size is a nice thing, but long battery life is important to me in portable devices.
Choose an i7, and you're drawing about 35w.
With some of the devices you have dismissed, less.

Personally, I'd rather have a lower spec machine than you seem to think you need.
That will be true for me in an X64 based MorphOS system as well.

A four to eight thread PPC with a decent video card (but more mid range than you appear to like) and I'd be good until an ISA shift.

Last edited by iggy on 15-Dec-2015 at 06:53 PM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

t's the same reason why you don't see a 64-bit o.s. version of OS4/MorphOS: you cannot share resources with the legacy 32-bit PowerPC and 68K applications. With x64 is even worse, because it's (naturally) little endian.

Yes that's the reason you can't have 64bit windows, running 32bit windows programs

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@fishy_fis

Quote:

The real problem when using a slow CPU though is bottom frame rates. Average might be OK, but when things get heavy things drop to an unplayable speed.

Well, that might be, but also down to API's available when SDL games was first ported to AmigaOS4.x, there was no DMA, to video memory, there was not possible to composite graphics on the graphics card, unless you used Warp3D, so any 2D game had no acceleration at all.

Anyway DMA was parity much broken on AmigaONE-SE/XE and MicroAmigaONE.

But on the Sam460 and AmigaONE-X1000, (Pegasus-II) DMA is working, and its totally different beast, and Sam460 and X1000 has PCI-e, not just PCI so big upgrade on the hardware front as well.

when AmigaONE-SE came out, on PC there was AGP-2 or AGP-4 or some thing, the AmigaONE-SE and XE has AGP, but really just operates as 66Mhz slot, I don't think ever got AGP GART working.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 07:45 PM.

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@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote: @cdimauro Quote: GeForce 6600 GT, right? No 7800 Gtx (2005 video board) ,

Strange. I've seen the 6600 GT somewhere, that's why I've reported it.

However the 7800 GTX is way faster than the 6600, so the comparison becomes even worse.
Quote:

are you say the INTEL HD is shitty GPU? whaha

It's very well known that the Intel's GPUs were very low-end. Only in the last years they gut pumped a lot.

If you make a quick search, you'll find many people NOT recommending at all to use the HD 3000 for gaming.

And, guess what: you used it for a comparison... with a game!
Quote:

Check better it was running Quake 4 mod evolved old game with totally new video graphic features ..

The engine is the same.
Quote:

PS are you writing i5 mobile 2.3 ghz is shitty compared the G5 quad

Well, looking at your video and considered all the limits of both the CPU and the integrated GPU, I can only say that it excels.
Quote:

PPS: in the video you was watching quake 4 was using 15% of 1 of the Core of the Quad

What do you expect from an old game, with one of best video cards produced?
Quote:

AMEN!!!!!!!

That's the only which I agree with, but for the opposite reason: you've shown that your test is totally non-sense.
Quote:

PPPS: i hope nx will be what i see in past rumors ... for now i dont had make errors about xbox one im better than Patcher

Quote:

New Nintendo Console (hybrid) probably in CES we will see it ... Someware was write will use Power8 core modded for the console

Those are very old rumors, which we discussed on your forum and even here.

The latest ones report that likely Nintendo will abandon the PowerPC platform and follow the other console vendors, jumping on the x64 wagon.

In fact, another recent rumor regarding AMD says that the company got another commission from a reality involved in the video game market. Since Sony and Microsoft were already served by AMD, you can make your deductions here.

On the other hand, it's the logical and obvious solution for Nintendo, because developers demand from long time a PC-like platform.


@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: t's the same reason why you don't see a 64-bit o.s. version of OS4/MorphOS: you cannot share resources with the legacy 32-bit PowerPC and 68K applications. With x64 is even worse, because it's (naturally) little endian. Yes that's the reason you can't have 64bit windows, running 32bit windows programs

Everytime the same story with you. You make EXACTLY the same statement. Then I reply explaining why the Windows (and Linux, Mac OS, etc.) case is totally different from the Amiga o.ses.

And, again, after some time, you start repeating the same stuff...

The next time I'll answer shortly with:

No, it's a completely different thing! Go look how it works and compare it with the Amiga o.ses.!

@cdimauro

No its not

Most of AmigaOS4.1 memory is virtualized none shared memory, that memory can be swapped if the OS needs to, the flat memory model of any computer exists, it also exists on x64 running Windows64 bit.

Have you ever emulated a OS on windows, can that emulator share resources with host OS?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2015 at 08:21 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga: no, it's not, because you, again, don't remember, I suppose.