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PosterThread
hth313 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 18:59:12
#1021 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 152
From: Delta, Canada

@bison

Kickstart 1.3 is not part of (included in) 3.1, and you cannot use 3.1 disks on top of 1.3.

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hth313 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 19:17:55
#1022 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 152
From: Delta, Canada

@Lou

In addition I got personal support from Mike when I was trying to get my classic A3000 real hardware running again. Advice that included all aspects of where to obtain images and various ways of doing things, not limited to his own products, but rather an honest view on the alternatives.

If he was only into emulation he could have given me some advice more tailored for that or even part dismiss me saying they only do emulation, but instead he took time to help me with my classic hardware.

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Nonefornow 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 21:08:53
#1023 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 136
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@Lou

We shall add this to the list


https://www.amigaforever.com/classic/download/

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 21:30:57
#1024 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11117
From: Norway

@Lou


Quote:
note the large disk support that 3.1.4 thinks is a *new* feature...


Not really did you read this from Clontos page

"For maximum compatibility, the Amiga boot partition should be the first partition of a disk, and it should not be larger than 4 GB. "

It's the same old patches from haage&partner
repackaged and resold.

Quote:
yeah so nothing at all...


Yeah that was really long time ago, most of the program I have not heard about.
what are Clonto doing now, to improve user experience for users of the platform?
with exception of trying to shut down Hyperion recent work.

I think Clonto is trying to create a monopoly, where they do not need to compete or improve anything.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jul-2019 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jul-2019 at 09:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jul-2019 at 09:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jul-2019 at 09:45 PM.

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megol 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 21:55:12
#1025 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 316
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Lou
I think Clonto is trying to create a monopoly, where they do not need to compete or improve anything.

Create? Hyperion already did it.

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hth313 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 22:16:20
#1026 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 152
From: Delta, Canada

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

Yeah that was really long time ago, most of the program I have not heard about.
what are Clonto doing now, to improve user experience for users of the platform?
with exception of trying to shut down Hyperion recent work.

I think Clonto is trying to create a monopoly, where they do not need to compete or improve anything.


From what I read in that document, what Cloanto is trying to do is to stop Hyperion from doing other things than develop and sell AmigaOS 4.x (5.x and so on). Hyperion is stepping in everywhere like they own AmigaOS and the trademarks. Hyperion has a license to develop their own operating system 4.x (based on 3.1 source) and use a couple of trademarks with that product to make it be some kind of Amiga product.

I think Cloanto is trying to put up fences (or a border) on the beach to make it clear what each side can do and not do. As I see it, Hyperion acts as if they own the entire beach and do what they want, which seems reasonable clear is not within their rights.

There are a couple of things I would like to understand. Why did Olsen&Co side with Hyperion to make 3.1.4 and not with Cloanto? If Cloanto manage to erect this fence properly, what rights do they have to develop new things based on 3.1 and would that potentially become a problem later?

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 18-Jul-2019 22:29:25
#1027 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10684
From: In the village

@hth313

Quote:
Why did Olsen&Co side with Hyperion to make 3.1.4 and not with Cloanto?


Thomas Richter made this abundantly clear numerous times. He felt this was a way to get the work out. Whether he based this solely on his own judgment or through discussions with Ben doesn't matter.

Fact is that when the injunction to stop the distribution was refused by the court, everything reverted to a pre lawsuit status regarding 3.1x, meaning they could proceed for the time being.

#6

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TRIPOS 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 0:12:22
#1028 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 984
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@thread

Re:post #946 this thread outlining the trademark case

Quote:
C-A Acquisition Corp et al v. Hyperion Entertainment CVBA

Source


FIRST AMENDED COMPLAINT FOR TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT (now available)

#6


The document lists and describes all the events chronologically and factually correct (easily verifiable). The argumentation is solid, and the sought for solutions are very fair and reasonable.

It's a crystal clear case. Just swing the judge-hammer and be done with it!

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TRIPOS 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 0:35:58
#1029 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 984
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Quote:
note the large disk support that 3.1.4 thinks is a *new* feature...


Not really did you read this from Clontos page

"For maximum compatibility, the Amiga boot partition should be the first partition of a disk, and it should not be larger than 4 GB. "

It's the same old patches from haage&partner
repackaged and resold.


Haage & Partner did never release a 3.1[.x] version, and they didn't release an updated Kickstart ROM. But Cloanto (the owners of Amiga) did release a 3.1 update. If you read the release-notes of Cloanto's 3.1, it explicitly say that a 3.X ROM is needed to take full advantage of this particular feature at boot. This was way before 3.1.4. RIght?

Edit: And you should take special notice when the Amiga Emulation experts talks about "for maximum compatibility". In this case you quoted out of context to make a political point. In reality, the entire paragraph was about a recommendation on how to make the most SW run, including very old SW:

For maximum compatibility, the Amiga boot partition should be the first partition of a disk, and it should not be larger than 4 GB. In order to remain compatible with older software that uses 32-bit values to measure disk capacity, a maximum partition size of 2 GB is recommended.

So it’s about compatibility to older programs. Old programs don’t magically get new with an updated OS. But if this isn’t important to you (you decide!), then you can ignore that 2 GB recommendation.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 19-Jul-2019 at 09:53 AM.
Last edited by TRIPOS on 19-Jul-2019 at 12:54 AM.

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Nonefornow 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 1:21:26
#1030 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 136
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@hth313

Quote:
There are a couple of things I would like to understand. Why did Olsen&Co side with Hyperion to make 3.1.4 and not with Cloanto? If Cloanto manage to erect this fence properly, what rights do they have to develop new things based on 3.1 and would that potentially become a problem later?


It seems that based on the pre-existing agreement the fence was already up.
Cloanto to develop for Classic Amiga and Hyperion for PPC Amiga. Hence the lenghty dissertation on OS 3.1 vs 4.x

From my understanding of the court proceeding, I do not think Cloanto wants to enter the PPC arena, they just do not want Hyperion to produce for the Classic Amiga and asked for the injuction on OS 3.1.4.

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Lou 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 1:35:31
#1031 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3976
From: Rhode Island

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Lou


Quote:
note the large disk support that 3.1.4 thinks is a *new* feature...


Not really did you read this from Clontos page

"For maximum compatibility, the Amiga boot partition should be the first partition of a disk, and it should not be larger than 4 GB. "

It's the same old patches from haage&partner
repackaged and resold.

Quote:
yeah so nothing at all...


Yeah that was really long time ago, most of the program I have not heard about.
what are Clonto doing now, to improve user experience for users of the platform?
with exception of trying to shut down Hyperion recent work.

I think Clonto is trying to create a monopoly, where they do not need to compete or improve anything.

We know where you stand. You can read how wrong your statements are in post # 1029 of this thread.

Cloanto PAID developers of OS 3.5 and 3.9 for their work to include their work in 3.10 aka 3.X. 3.X(10) includes a 3.X ROM which can be burned into an actual chip. So yes, they have developed to OS to 3.10/X, far ahead in version numbers of 3.1.4 … Hyperion didn't pay for anything in 3.5 & 3.9 which is why you have back-ported features in 3.1.4.1.5.9

So yes, Cloanto released OS 3.X aka 3.10 so that we can all benefit from 3.5 and 3.9 and a new ROM and more features. This is part of AmigaForever as mentioned in multiple court documents...not to mention all the people who bought AmigaForever and already had the upgraded OS for maybe 10 years now...

Let me re-iterate a key difference between Hyperion and Cloanto: Cloanto actually pays developers.

Last edited by Lou on 19-Jul-2019 at 01:39 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 19-Jul-2019 at 01:37 AM.

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bison 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 3:01:08
#1032 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1408
From: N-Space

@hth313

Quote:
Kickstart 1.3 is not part of (included in) 3.1, and you cannot use 3.1 disks on top of 1.3.

Thanks. I somehow lost track of what "the software" was referring to. Legal documents are not really my gig.

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kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 6:57:43
#1033 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1289
From: Trondheim, Norway

@hth313

From what I recall when OS 3.1.4 was announced (but I have not found the actual post, if it was on amiga.org, eab or a1k) ThoR wrote that "they" (he?) did approach Cloanto, but were told by Mike that only Hyperion sits on the actual source tree of OS 3.1. Remember, when Hyperion were granted rights to use OS 3.1 sources for OS4 development, Amiga Inc. were unable to provide the source code, so Hyperion had to find them elsewhere, which they did. With OS4 finished (to some degree), Hyperion were supposed to hand sources back to Amiga Inc, but this never happened, both parties claiming the other had broken the contract etc. After the settlement, Hyperion see the OS3.1 sources as their own, a subset of the OS4 sources, and continued to refuse anyone else, including the actual IP owners, access.

Hyperion has been strangling any OS3 development for more than 15 years.

Last edited by kolla on 19-Jul-2019 at 07:08 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 19-Jul-2019 at 07:07 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 19-Jul-2019 at 07:06 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 9:30:51
#1034 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 984
From: Unknown

@hth313

Unlike Copyright issues, an owner of a trademark is obliged to take actions against any violation on their rights immediately, or else they risk losing that rights. This is what Mike Battilana is doing here, defending his property, as he must do. When it comes to Copyright violations, you (as an owner) are free to either react immediately or not. You don’t lose your Copyright if you don’t defend it. And you don’t give up your rights to act at a later point either, should you desire to.


@kolla

Any and all rights to the 3.1 sources that Hyperion may have gotten from Amiga Inc (explicitly for the creation of 4.x, and explicitly NOT for new releases of 3.x), is now owned by Mike Battilanas companies. Excluding Olsens GCC rewrite/port of course, which is the only usable sources in practice (without them you would have to begin with creating your own port/rewrite to a contemporary programming language and toolchain before any real development could start), but on the the other hand his rewrite is based on Battilanas copyrights and can never be separated from it. It’s a shared copyright. Actual access to the sources shouldn’t be a problem. They were leaked all over the community and many (most?) people have them now. If Battilana missed downloading them, he should PM some users here. But it would make a lot more sense and probably be a lot easier to just get Olsen &Co on board. This is probably what will happen in a not too distant future.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 10:07:26
#1035 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 984
From: Unknown

@Lou

No need to burn your 3.X ROM’s yourself, you can buy them if you want to!

https://www.vesalia.de/e_kickstart%5B8707%5D.htm



And with them you can indeed boot from larger than 4 GB partitions with Cloanto’s updated 3.1 disks.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 13:11:15
#1036 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10684
From: In the village

@bison

I have a question too.

There have been a significant number of documents filed in the trademark case, including but not limited to a complaint and the amended complaint you've now seen.
Yet Hyperion has responded to nothing and they show no legal representative for this trademark case, unlike the contract case.
Is this normal?

#6

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cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 13:28:28
#1037 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 882
From: Unknown

@kolla
Quote:

ThoR wrote that "they" (he?) did approach Cloanto, but were told by Mike that only Hyperion sits on the actual source tree of OS 3.1.

I don't remember him saying that. It would be wrong anyway, because Cloanto is known to have a big archive of Commodore stuff, and pretty much everyone sits on the "actual source tree of OS 3.1".

Thor said multiple times that he was approached by Hyperion and agreed to do it. When questioned about Cloanto, he stated they couldn't have helped him anyway because 3.1.4 contains several components backported from OS4, and Cloanto couldn't have provided these.

Quote:

Remember, when Hyperion were granted rights to use OS 3.1 sources for OS4 development, Amiga Inc. were unable to provide the source code, so Hyperion had to find them elsewhere, which they did.
[...] After the settlement, Hyperion see the OS3.1 sources as their own, a subset of the OS4 sources, and continued to refuse anyone else, including the actual IP owners, access.

The problem is not finding the sources, they have been leaked multiple times in the last 20+ years. If you can't find them on your favourite torrent site, go ask the MorphOS team. I'm sure they can help out

But a copy of the old CBM source archives won't do you much good - to compile them, you need a rather exotic setup involving Sun workstations and a 30 year old proprietary Green Hills compiler. Olsen is the one who reworked that in the nineties, to make it compile using SAS/C and GCC. This (extensive) work is still the property of Olsen. He only licensed it to Hyperion, and AFAIK, he never got fully paid anyway.

Olsen's reworked 3.1 sources are also the base for the official OS4 source tree, which Olsen used to be managing anyway. Hyperion could certainly block other people from using that., but that has nothing to do with refusing other parties access to the 3.1 sources - they can't do that, neither legally nor technically.

Quote:

With OS4 finished (to some degree)

I love your optimism.

Last edited by cgutjahr on 19-Jul-2019 at 04:14 PM.

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number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 13:36:23
#1038 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10684
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

Well, "finished" can mean different things. heh.

#6

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Lou 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 14:54:20
#1039 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3976
From: Rhode Island

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@hth313

From what I recall when OS 3.1.4 was announced (but I have not found the actual post, if it was on amiga.org, eab or a1k) ThoR wrote that "they" (he?) did approach Cloanto, but were told by Mike that only Hyperion sits on the actual source tree of OS 3.1. Remember, when Hyperion were granted rights to use OS 3.1 sources for OS4 development, Amiga Inc. were unable to provide the source code, so Hyperion had to find them elsewhere, which they did. With OS4 finished (to some degree), Hyperion were supposed to hand sources back to Amiga Inc, but this never happened, both parties claiming the other had broken the contract etc. After the settlement, Hyperion see the OS3.1 sources as their own, a subset of the OS4 sources, and continued to refuse anyone else, including the actual IP owners, access.

Hyperion has been strangling any OS3 development for more than 15 years.

Odd that they wouldn't have been just been allowed to pull a copy from some source control server... (Olsen's)
I mean it's not like sources are imprinted on Sumerian cylinder seals...

Last edited by Lou on 19-Jul-2019 at 02:56 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 19-Jul-2019 14:59:10
#1040 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3976
From: Rhode Island

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@Lou

No need to burn your 3.X ROM’s yourself, you can buy them if you want to!

https://www.vesalia.de/e_kickstart%5B8707%5D.htm



And with them you can indeed boot from larger than 4 GB partitions with Cloanto’s updated 3.1 disks.

My only "working" Amiga is a CD32 ans my SX-1 is flaky ... :/
I do have an A500 in the basement that someone handed me 15 years ago missing a PSU and expansion cover. Needless to say - I've never powered it up.

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