Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6064 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
26 crawler(s) on-line.
 7 guest(s) on-line.
 1 member(s) on-line.


 terminills

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 terminills:  3 mins ago
 kolla:  7 mins ago
 MEGA_RJ_MICAL:  22 mins ago
 Rob:  24 mins ago
 CLXIV:  53 mins ago
 BSzili:  1 hr 8 mins ago
 hotrod:  1 hr 18 mins ago
 AP:  1 hr 20 mins ago
 tygre:  1 hr 58 mins ago
 Mobileconnect:  2 hrs 23 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  Amiga Inc. Loses U.S. Trademarks
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 Next Page )
PosterThread
amigakit 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 14:44:15
#1421 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2410
From: www.amigakit.com

@geen_naam

Sure, I understand, If it helps we have separate developers mostly for Classic and NG. Most of them would prefer to work on one platform and not the other.

However there is some crossover, for example with the talents of our datatypes library developer. He has written both the sound datatype and datatypes library from scratch for both 68K and PPC. He has also written the Sound Prefs and AK-ILBM datatype. We also have another talented developer who has written the commands for us which co-exist on both 68K and PPC. These have been recently released on Updater.

We are always eager for new developers to reduce the development time.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | X5000

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 14:52:17
#1422 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11164
From: In the village

@amigakit

Quote:
We are always eager for new developers to reduce the development time.


Extremely similar statements made repeatedly by the 3.2 team btw.

In other words you have a niche within a niche here and different 3.x teams competing to attract developers.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 01-Jun-2021 at 03:00 PM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 15:01:43
#1423 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 940
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

No, paying people for their time and expertise is a mandatory part of our capitalist system!

Our "capitalist system" relies on the mechanics of supply and demand.

There is less than zero demand for most stuff in the Enhancer package - nobody needs new JPEG and PNG datatypes or CLI commands. The diehards at os4welt.de are trying to come up with their own install scripts now, so they can only install the useful stuff from Enhancer (read: the drivers).

Quote:

The coders still need to get paid.

That's what entities like Amigakit or Hyperion keep telling you. The truth is, most coders who worked on AmigaOS (let alone MorphOS or AROS) haven't been paid in a decade and a half.

I certainly don't mind people like Hans or Andy getting some money out of this. But before you throw more money at the problem, maybe you should check how well throwing money at the problem has worked in the past?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 15:05:37
#1424 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 940
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

My view on enhancer is to take aos4 further then Hyperion is able to.

Just to be clear: I feel nothing but respect for Hans' work. And obviously Hyperion hasn't moved os4 forward much in the last decade.

But Enhancer bundles replacements for standard shell commands, new Datatypes, a multiview replacement, a text editor and things like that. This is not about "taking aos4 further", it's about replacing OS4 - and Matt communicates that quite openly. I have a problem with *that*. Especially since Matt is well aware that AmigakitOS won't sell, so we can all look forward to more trademark drama.

Last edited by cgutjahr on 01-Jun-2021 at 03:08 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 15:09:26
#1425 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11164
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

Please don't leave out Amiga Inc. and the famous...
Amiga Inc. to KMOS to (rename back to Amiga Inc.) ploy.

Those debts don't exist because we're not the same Amiga Inc.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
amigakit 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 16:34:38
#1426 ]
Amiga Kit
Joined: 28-Jun-2004
Posts: 2410
From: www.amigakit.com

@number6

Quote:
In other words you have a niche within a niche here and different 3.x teams competing to attract developers.


Any developer working on AmigaOS code creates a derivative work which is the ownership and within the control of the copyright owner, unless an agreement has been made. As we have seen, agreements can be contested which puts development into jeopardy.

This means that we cannot work on other entities' code base and develop it commercially as it is very unlikely we would see any financial remuneration to even cover basic costs. In addition there is the uncertainty of working on a third-party code base entangled in a legal process.

It is far more advantageous to us and our customers to work on our own projects with the freedoms and long term benefits that this provides.

Last edited by amigakit on 01-Jun-2021 at 04:39 PM.

_________________
Amiga Kit Amiga Store
Links: www.amigakit.com | New Products | X5000

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 16:47:50
#1427 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11164
From: In the village

@amigakit

Quote:
This means that we cannot work on other entities' code base and develop it commercially as it is very unlikely we would see any financial remuneration to even cover basic costs.


Given that Amiga Corporation stated the settlement involved offering 3.2 "for free", I can see why you choose the word "unlikely". heh.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
matthey 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 21:01:03
#1428 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1063
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Given that Amiga Corporation stated the settlement involved offering 3.2 "for free", I can see why you choose the word "unlikely". heh.


While there is little hope of "financial remuneration" for further developing free AmigaOS components, competing against components which are free may not be very lucrative either, at least where there is development overlap and regular updates. The contingency plan logic makes some sense though, especially considering the lack of development for AmigaOS 4 and the legal mess.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 1-Jun-2021 22:55:57
#1429 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5832
From: UK

@Thread

While I agree with AmigaKit’s position as theirs is the only pragmatic one that can sustain the market beyond the short term, part of me thinks against all the odds Hyperion have managed to nearly get the Classic OS back to the OS3.9 functionality while bringing even low specced OCS and ECS machines along for the ride and they did what Cloanto and AmigaKit wouldn’t. Yes, it’s legally dubious now back porting code to AmigaOS 3.2 but the code base from AmigaOS4 would have likely been lost if Amiga Inc had been custodians and we have a lot to thank them for.

For all the cr@p, Hyperion HAVE delivered! I think most people view that as a miracle and maybe even a great parting gift before Cloanto and Hyperion nuke each other to oblivion!

I think Ben should sell to A-EON as that’s the only way this can end semi-respectfully with Ben saving face too. Wishful thinking I know.

Last edited by BigD on 01-Jun-2021 at 10:57 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
kolla 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 2:34:46
#1430 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1733
From: Trondheim, Norway

@BigD

Quote:
Hyperion have managed to nearly get the Classic OS back to the OS3.9 functionality while bringing even low specced OCS and ECS machines along for the ride


Huh - chipset is not relevant, CPU is. The choice to drop 68000 support back in 3.5 days was a choice done on several misconceptions and should never have happened. I have been running OS3.9 sans Reaction on low specced OCS and ECS machines for a mighty long time.

Quote:
and they did what Cloanto and AmigaKit wouldn’t.


Couldn't. Even the actual owners of Amiga did not have the sources when this circus with Hyperion started, so Hyperion had to get them elsewhere (Olsen? I don't recall.) Original plan was that Hyperion was contracted to develop OS4, and once it was done, return sources etc to Amiga. Well, this never happened, and sources remained hostage at Hyperion.

Quote:
Yes, it’s legally dubious now back porting code to AmigaOS 3.2 but the code base from AmigaOS4 would have likely been lost if Amiga Inc had been custodians and we have a lot to thank them for.


Many would also argue that it is also technically dubious to backport code from OS4 to OS3. Personally I find it extremely annoying to see more and more OS4 crap landing on my favourite recreational platform.

Quote:
I think Ben should sell to A-EON as that’s the only way this can end semi-respectfully with Ben saving face too. Wishful thinking I know.


Cloanto will win, will be legally get access, and will hopefully see the value in open sourcing as much as possible, so anyone can cherrypick features and options from our own personal taste and hardware.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 8:13:54
#1431 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@kolla

Quote:
Cloanto will win, will be legally get access, and will hopefully see the value in open sourcing as much as possible, so anyone can cherrypick features and options from our own personal taste and hardware.


If amigaos4 is open source than you create even a larger division. The amiga is apparently a magnet for those who like to be in control.

At least in linux there's an official team who controls the kernel. How did you envision this for an open source amiga world?

There are a lot of people who think that things should have been implemented differenty. When they get access to the source, this will actually happen too.

I forsee a lot of instable behaviour or non-working programs because you have installed dependancies from developers X and Y while the programs depend on the same dependancies from developer Z.

Testing your code on different platforms and configurations seems out of the ordinary anyways.

And what about the commercial parties? Why should they keep investing when others are making a mess of their effort? Having to explain that their software only works with a certain tested configuration over and over again.

And what about direction? Who is in control when all the "captains" who are now on the sideline are suddently trying to take control? The amiga ship will be torn apart.

That an open source amigaos could suddenly attract large numbers of professional coders is nothing more than a fairy tale to me either.

So no. An open source amigaos sounds like a horror scenario to me. But it would be nice that the closed source would be in the hands of a company that is actualy willing and able to move the platform forwards.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
dalek 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 8:20:21
#1432 ]
New Member
Joined: 7-Jun-2017
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Open source would work just fine - Mike Battalina has already talked about that possibility.

It would work just fine - anyone can do what they like. If people want the "official" release they buy it from Amiga Inc. The developers already seem happy to work for free. Amiga Inc. would appoint a steward that decides what makes it to release. That doesn't stop anyone else making their own non-standard release.

Remember Hyperion is not a software company, it's a lawyer. That company makes money by stealing rights then charging itself legal fees to represent itself. It's not a business, it's a scam.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 8:50:20
#1433 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@dalek

Sure, Hyperion is one lawyer. But I said that I would like to see a closed source amigaos in the hand of a company that is willing and able to move forward. So we agree on this point.

Cloanto is a guy using someone else their emulator. They did exactly zero to improve the OS or the amiga in general. Or will he suddenly pay guys like HDR to write graphics drivers at a loss? No of course not. He is not interested in amigaos. Only the classic emulator business. That's why he is involved in that lawsuite against Hyperion. To secure his emulator business. Amigaos itself is just a detail. A burden even. Hence the open source suggestion.

To control an OS needs leadership. Someone saying:" That distribution is allowed to call themselves the official distribution" is no leadership.

And for sure, many future captains will not accept different leadership except themselves anyways. See MorphOS.

AROS is the perfect example of how open source works for the amiga in a best case scenario. After 25 years, it's still amigaos 3.0. None of the platforms are fully supported. And vitually no developers left.

Development effort needs order to be able to get somewhere. Not chaos.

The linux market is large enough to support different distributions and visions. The major distrubutions (Ubuntu, Redhat) are in control of companies who actually have a profitable business strategy to earn money and get something done in a professional way. But nevertheless, the kernel is under control of one team. and that team is also professional and well funded.

Last edited by geen_naam on 02-Jun-2021 at 09:22 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 12:39:29
#1434 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11164
From: In the village

@thread

The focus of all parties is resolution, so I suggest discussing the future is a bit premature.

However, there is nothing wrong with thinking ahead, and this location might be more on-topic:

A Discourse on Possible Amiga Futures

Spawned from this: http://cloanto.org/

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
dalek 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 12:56:02
#1435 ]
New Member
Joined: 7-Jun-2017
Posts: 9
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

To control an OS needs leadership. Someone saying:" That distribution is allowed to call themselves the official distribution" is no leadership.


I think fairly paying to acquire and owning the rights to the software gives Cloanto that right.

I think that Hyperion's theft of Classic Amiga OS, regardless of whatever shiny new toys it allows is plain wrong, immoral and abhorrent.

All the fanboys/girls/whatevers that keep sending Benny the Lawyer money for something he has no right to shows how selfish the community in general is.

I can't believe how so many people think it's okay with what Hermans has got away with so far. In any case he'll lose, and if for some unlikely reason he weasles through a legal loophole, then Amiga Inc. can just open source and make it all moot. Noone will feel the need to pay the lawyer then.

Last edited by dalek on 02-Jun-2021 at 01:02 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
geen_naam 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 13:26:05
#1436 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2003
Posts: 111
From: The Netherlands

@dalek

Quote:
I think fairly paying to acquire and owning the rights to the software gives Cloanto that right.


Fair enough.

But if you care about continued development of os4 then it is in equal wrong hands as with Hyperion. So as an os4 user you gain nothing at best.

Hyperion got away with it so far because the legal system and the ones who signed the settlement agreement allowed him to do so. Now wait and see what this new judge will rule.

Personally I don't care about emulators or os3.1 in general. So for me personally, cloanto can open source it or preserve it in the cleanroom of a museum if they like.

But I hope that OS4.1 will end up in the hands of people that actually care. Trevor for example.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 13:32:37
#1437 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5832
From: UK

@dalek

They pay for a product they want and will use and to support the efforts of the developers to who feel the reward of seeing the sales figures if not money on their pocket.

It is surely more of an issue that Hyperion agreed with Cloanto that AmigaOS 3.2 should be a free update then they broke the agreement! That sort of stuff won’t go down very well in court!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BigD 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 13:35:11
#1438 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5832
From: UK

@geen_naam

Quote:
But I hope that OS4.1 will end up in the hands of people that actually care. Trevor for example.


It is my understanding that Trevor is a shareholder or has a stake in Hyperion so he should be given preference if he wants to buy it IMHO.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 13:36:51
#1439 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11164
From: In the village

@geen_naam

Quote:
see what this new judge will rule.


It's deja vu for him really. Same man, although there was a mediator involved as well, with the prior case.

The only obvious change is that he became head judge in the intervening time.

Given the complicated nature of the case, the transfer to Judge Marinez was seen as a plus, given prior familiarity.

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
cgutjahr 
Re: Cloanto acquire Amiga Inc Trademark
Posted on 2-Jun-2021 14:02:00
#1440 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 940
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

Quote:

At least in linux there's an official team who controls the kernel. How did you envision this for an open source amiga world?

How did we get from "Leaman is trying to make his own AmigaOS" to "open source is bad, people could fork!" in just one or two postings?

The party that controls the trademark would be the one that gets all the attention. In a perfect world, they would also act less stupid than their predecessors: Communicate your goals clearly, attract a few key developers - any forks somebody might create will not matter much.

Quote:

There are a lot of people who think that things should have been implemented differenty. When they get access to the source, this will actually happen too.

First of all: so what? It already happens - just ask Mr. Amigakit.

Also, the number of qualified developers is quite small. A few bedroom hackers might be tempted to "optimize" stuff, but preparing an entire release requires a lot work. And you can't call it "Amiga" or "Workbench", so nobody will care anyway.

Quote:

That an open source amigaos could suddenly attract large numbers of professional coders is nothing more than a fairy tale

Which is why nobody ever claimed it would do that.

Open sourcing AmigaOS would be about stopping shady entities from keeping it hostage, about ending the stupid games with copyright assignments or 'NDA's, about making sure a developers knows that whatever happens to the publisher his work will not end up locked in a safe somewhere.

And it would force whoever is in charge to actually act sensible - instead of just relying on legal threats to people, or the fact that he once had a beer with the guy who registered amiga.org in 1994,.

Quote:

So no. An open source amigaos sounds like a horror scenario to me. But it would be nice that the closed source would be in the hands of a company that is actualy willing and able to move the platform forwards.

Literally anything would be better than the status quo. Not sure which events from the last three decades make you think a company "willing and able to move the platform forward" is going to show up.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle