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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 30-Jun-2017 18:30:26
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11993
From: Norway

@number6

Workbench is the desktop in AmigaOS, so it nice to not get sued for using that name don't you think. anyway what's next branding "DIR", so no one have "DIR" command in C:,

I think it's in everyone best interest if workbench is treated as common word, instead being exclusive to Cloanto.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Jun-2017 at 06:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 30-Jun-2017 at 06:32 PM.

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amigang 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 10:28:49
#62 ]
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Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1728
From: Cheshire, England

anyone notice this in Amiga kit celebrates 13 years

Hyperion Entertainment licenced ROMs to Amiga Kit for manufacturing in 2012, revoking that licence later in July 2017."

And I feel that whole doc is up there to show to any court as to why Amiga kit should still be able to trade with the Amiga name, I think something big going on behind the scene on the Amiga trademark, which we all kinda notice anyway. I will say it again, I just hope that not too much money and time is wasted on who owns whats and all current parties can come to some kind of agreement.

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Overflow 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 10:33:39
#63 ]
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Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@amigang

The Amiga name is all over the place.

Next to where I live, there is a phyiscal store;

http://amiga.no/

And then you have;

http://www.amigasystem.no/

I guess you could make a Workbench from the stuff they sell, but not quite what we have in mind

Last edited by Overflow on 01-Jul-2017 at 10:35 AM.

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A1200 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 11:17:04
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3086
From: Westhall, UK

@iggy

Quote:

iggy wrote:
@number6

Aggressor? Again, two dogs fighting over a well worn bone.


Well said - let them fight over it. I might have a fight over the rights to 2 sticks and some kindling.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 13:43:50
#65 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@amigang

Quote:
Hyperion Entertainment licenced ROMs to Amiga Kit for manufacturing in 2012, revoking that licence later in July 2017.

Source

And Amiga.org where I see the post linking to the history...posted yesterday (June).

Source

Interesting...

#6

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 16:55:24
#66 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11993
From: Norway

@number6

Yes they have been supporting Amiga OS user for long time, Amiga Kit are great people.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 22:48:40
#67 ]
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Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1159
From: Unknown

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:

Hyperion Entertainment licenced ROMs to Amiga Kit for manufacturing in 2012, revoking that licence later in July 2017."

And I feel that whole doc is up there to show to any court as to why Amiga kit should still be able to trade with the Amiga name


I think you may be a bit confused or misinformed. Amiga kit as a reseller has never needed to own the Amiga trademark to do business, neither has any other Amiga dealer needed to own the trademark (or even having a trademark license to the Amiga name). I think you misunderstood.

The license you refer to is about copyright, not trademark. The Amiga operating system has never been open source or free for anyone to distribute as they see fit. It has always been a proprietary operating system. The Amiga ROM and Workbench is still available for resellers to sell, including Amiga kit. This in the shape that can be called the "Checkmark Branch", meaning the original binaries from Commodore itself, published by Cloanto.


Quote:
I think something big going on behind the scene


If you read the original post in this thread again, you may get the picture. The "revoked license" that Amiga kit mentions is merely for what can be called the "Boing Ball Branch" version of OS 3.1, meaning the version based on the rewritten, ported and cleaned sources from Olaf Barthel. And please note that this is NOT(!) the same thing as anyone trying to prevent the "Boing Ball Branch" from existing in general, no, it's merely an acknowledgement that Hyperion in particular lacks the rights to issue licenses for it! Big difference!

Cloanto is the copyright owner!

If you do as I suggested in the first post in this thread, and read Olaf "Olsen" Barthels posts in the "Timothy De Groote - Director Hyperion Entertainment CVBA" thread, you will see that he is very concerned about the past, current and future situation of the Amiga. He is of the opinion that something went terribly wrong, it must be corrected, and that a future proof platform enabling a future existence, maintenance and development of Amiga needs to come in place.

If you read post #52 in this thread again, you will see that what Cloanto is looking for, is providing an answer to Barthel's concerns! One possible outcome (as I translate it) would be to transfer IP to some foundation to secure an independent future(!!!). IMHO this would be the best thing that could happen to the Amiga. And something like that was actually what I expected from Cloanto. Everyone who has been involved in the Amiga scene since the nineties knows perfectly well that Cloanto is genuinely the good guys in the community, and their efforts and good deeds for the platform since the death of Commodore is truly monumental. The pathetic attempts by "NutsAboutAmiga" to belittle Cloanto's work is very sad. Don't be fooled by such miserable talk.

Also, please understand that Olsen is the author of the "Boing Ball Branch" source code, which is the foundation for any and all OS development beyond the "Checkmark Branch" version from Commodore. This should put some weight behind his words. The whole purpose of the "Boing Ball Branch" was to make it possible to advance the operating system at all, beyond the pre-historic programming languages, toolchains, hardware, etc. The "Checkmark branch" and the "Boing Ball Branch" is not the same, not even in the "3.1 version". Today they have different purpose and use, preservationist versus evolutionist, thus there is a purpose and need for both. History and future.

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 1-Jul-2017 23:58:52
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6106
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
If you read the original post in this thread again, you may get the picture. The "revoked license" that Amiga kit mentions is merely for what can be called the "Boing Ball Branch" version of OS 3.1, meaning the version based on the rewritten, ported and cleaned sources from Olaf Barthel. And please note that this is NOT(!) the same thing as anyone trying to prevent the "Boing Ball Branch" from existing in general, no, it's merely an acknowledgement that Hyperion in particular lacks the rights to issue licenses for it! Big difference!


The Cloanto 3.1 ROM is version 45.061 which moves workbench.library out of the ROM and includes the following:

*Patches originally released under the ESCOM and Gateway Amiga ownership (no SetPatch or reboot required)
*scsi.device and exec.library updates by Alexander Benedictov, Chris Hodges, Heinz Wrobel, Jeff Weeks and Toni Wilen
*expansion.library fixes by Jeff Weeks
*FastFileSystem fixes by Etienne Vogt
*mathieeesingbas.library fixes by Harry "Piru" Sintonen
*Fix to floppy drive issue affecting some systems in version 45.061



It's based on but most certainly not the last Commodore version which was 40.63.



Which incidentally is the version that Amigakit have been selling under license from Hyperion since 2012.



If Hyperion lacks the rights then how come Amigakit were selling and distributing it since 2012 and the license has only just now been revoked and the actual ROMs have not been pulled from sale?

Hyperion also licensed Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 ROMs to Individual Computers way back in March 2013, more than a full year before Cloanto got in the act of selling physical ROMs.

How come both licenses have seemingly gone unchallenged from Amiga inc or Cloanto up until now? That Hyperion have revoked Amigakit's license due to a dispute is only an assumption at the moment. Surely if this is the reason we can expect an an announcement from Individual Computer stating that they can no longer supply Kickstart ROM files with the ACA500+ or any other hardware from them.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 0:00:19
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@TRIPOS

Quote:
it's merely an acknowledgement that Hyperion in particular lacks the rights to issue licenses for it!


iirc, the legal term is an "admission".

#6

Last edited by number6 on 02-Jul-2017 at 12:02 AM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 10:05:39
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1159
From: Unknown

@Rob

Please, if you are confused, don't spread it further!

You can buy Cloanto ROM's of all important versions (1.3, 2.05 and 3.1) for all supported Amiga machines, scroll down on this page and marvel at the options: http://www.vesalia.de/e_kickstart.htm

The latest 3.1 ROM (rev. 40.xx) that Commodore managed to put in a product before the bankruptcy was the CD32 ROM (rev. 40.60), but later 40.63 was released for the A600, 40.68 for A1200/A4000/A3000, and 40.70 for the A4000T.

40.60
40.63
40.68
40.70

The version you erroneously label "The Cloanto 3.1 ROM" is NOT the Cloanto 3.1 ROM(s) at all (they are listed above!), it is the 3.X ROM! Huge difference! It is of the 45.xx "evolutionary" branch and helps you get the most out of the post-Commodore Workbench 3.X! It is basically the "Checkmark branch" 3.1 ROM (40.68) with some changes and additions.

Read about the 3.X ROM here!

The complete up to date catalogue of all ROM versions imaginable can be found here! (The "Boing Ball Branch" 40.72 ROM not (yet) listed)

Images of all important versions are of course available in the excellent Amiga Forever package!

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Rob 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 11:56:51
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6106
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
You can buy Cloanto ROM's of all important versions (1.3, 2.05 and 3.1) for all supported Amiga machines, scroll down on this page and marvel at the options: http://www.vesalia.de/e_kickstart.htm


I wasn't aware that Cloanto had made other physical ROMs aside from the 3.x branch available.

Quote:
45.xx "evolutionary" branch and helps you get the most out of the post-Commodore Workbench 3.X! It is basically the "Checkmark branch" 3.1 ROM (40.68) with some changes and additions.


The same could be argued for 40.72 apart from 40.72 does not have any third party software added into the ROM.

Also do you have any theories as to why Hyperion's sub-licensing of 3.1 in 2012 and 1.3 and 3.1 in 2013 went unchallenged if they didn't have the right?

P.S. We'll just brush over the fact that you claimed that Amigakit produced 40.72 ROM under license from Hyperion and rather than the 40.63 Commodore era version that was actually produced and sold by Amigakit and it's dealers.

Last edited by Rob on 02-Jul-2017 at 11:59 AM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 14:02:40
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@Rob

Quote:
Hyperion also licensed Kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 ROMs to Individual Computers way back in March 2013, more than a full year before Cloanto got in the act of selling physical ROMs.


And even as late as last year wiki (and Jens) still referred to 1200 reloaded as "Amiga 1200 reloaded", which later became "Commodore 1200 reloaded". I've recently seen reference to "1200 reloaded", so I'm not sure what he actually intends to use.

Also, it's now been about 9 weeks since Jens reported sending contracts (3) to Hyperion concerning P96. Every time a status report is requested, absolute silence follows.

These 2 events alone would indicate that Jens has had his own share of legal difficulties to deal with, and strongly indicate multiple parties are/were involved. This may be more complicated than just ROM licensing...

#6

Last edited by number6 on 02-Jul-2017 at 02:22 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 14:23:08
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11993
From: Norway

@number6

Picasso96 is on the way out, it is an obsolete from AmigaOS4.1, similar commands/functions are now part of Graphic.library, Picasso96Mode prefs, is also obsolete, you now create own mode using just tooltypes of video mode, there are indications that wont to do something about current low level infrastructure. It's not clear what part of Picasso96 will remain, after this changes if any.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 14:41:33
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@NutsAboutAmiga

I understand that.

I think most would agree with TripOS when he said "Today they have different purpose and use, preservationist versus evolutionist, thus there is a purpose and need for both. History and future."
Jens might well fit into the former category, but I won't speak for him.

My point above has nothing to do with the value of P96. I'm merely pointing out that any agreements people seem to have made 4 years ago, might not be viewed as highly today.
Also the legal wranglings over all aspects serves to further muddy the waters as to what rights people can prove that will allow them to deliver any product to *cough* market.

#6


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amigang 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 15:42:34
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1728
From: Cheshire, England

@TRIPOS

Quote:
I think you may be a bit confused or misinformed. Amiga kit as a reseller has never needed to own the Amiga trademark to do business, neither has any other Amiga dealer needed to own the trademark (or even having a trademark license to the Amiga name). I think you misunderstood.


I know I get it, the main issue that seeem to be going on is who own Amigaos 3.1 and what can it be used for, however this whole thing started when the trademark of Amiga was'nt re-newed and clonato claimed ownership. This means if they get world wide rights they could start asking web site and computer shops, etc using the Amiga trademark to stop.

The famous Apple inc vs Apple corp is a perfect example of the kind of crap we could soon be going though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v_Apple_Computer

Just wanted to point it out that this could go beyond the os code, the Amiga trademark and what it can be used for might be worth a pretty penny with the rise of retro market, maybe more than who owns the os.

Last edited by amigang on 02-Jul-2017 at 03:45 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 02-Jul-2017 at 03:45 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 02-Jul-2017 at 03:44 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 02-Jul-2017 at 03:43 PM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 15:54:40
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@amigang

Quote:
This means if they get world wide rights they could start asking web site and computer fairs using the Amiga trademark to stop.


Obviously the principal threat of the Cloanto U.S. filing for Amiga (born out by the potential opposers Hyperion and Itec LLC) is to Hyperion and their sublicensees ((law) A person to whom a sublicense is granted) that they feel responsible for....aka Trevor.

#6

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iggy 
Re: Amiga for the future?
Posted on 2-Jul-2017 16:26:39
#77 ]
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Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@number6

I'd agree that P96 is essentially irrelevant. It sprang from the same basic idea as CyberGraphX, and can be reimplemented without legal wranglings or licensing requirements.
RTG drivers are not that proprietary that we need to worry about the issues of specific implementations.

Does the Linux market feel obligated to pay gpu manufactures for the rights to develop code?
No, that's part of the reason that modern gpu manufacturers are so stingy with their documentation.

One of the appealing things about the Vampire is the fact that they don't feel obligated to label it the 'Amiga' Vampire, that it will run AROS 68K well (not just Amiga OS/Workbench), that it is an independent development from the community.

In a thread over at Amiga.org, on of the posters (bloodline) recently suggested the idea of an fpga based laptop. Now there is a good idea for the community to pursue.

I like to idea that some of this is coming from us, the PPC laptop project, Vampire accelerators, AROS (in all flavors), and hopefully further creative ideas.

Designed by people that want something for themselves, what gains traction is likely to have a market.
After all, WE are what has kept this community alive, so why not help shape its direct and future?

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