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Tuxedo 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 14:46:02
#361 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@thread

I read the whole thread on AmigaNews.it I read quite all thread here...

I'm really disappointed about all that problems and also think that tlosm was a bi too angry for 50+vat €...
Ok the bad feeling him havd with Trevor and others that dont reply to its mail(unforunately a thing that on AmigaOS seems quite "normal"...).
The bad behaviour, IMHO, was the complete absence of some AmigaOS "important" guys in that thread...really nonsense...

However reading Hans replyes seems that something can be done to "solve" the probems that seems realted much for software problem than hw for some reported problem...

For the rest...I like x5000 for AmigaOS, linux was good plus but nothing more...if I really like to use linux I'll buy a REALLY cheap x64 hw and not a less compatible and with less apps than x64 like linuxppc was...
I dont like ppc so much...only needed to run AOS...nothing more...

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 15:17:34
#362 ]
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Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Tuxedo

Quote:
if I really like to use linux I'll buy a REALLY c

in fact i had buy a pi3 36 euros with better linux experience than x5000

probably you dont understand the point... i like linux because is the only os that make me understand the really power of x5000 because i can compare it performances with my other ppc hardware.
what i say is for sure x5000 is the fastest amigaos machine on the scene ... but this machine expecially in the 5020 version is much more slower than a Pmac G5 2.3 ghz ... and slower than an Odroid Xu 60 euro arm machine...

about my extra pay was near 100 euro
about my email without reply was not from amigaos team ... but no reply from a-eon team expecially when i report some issue ... no support at all from they .

by the way the best thing of this experience is that i wake up . and im starting watch everything really clear .

Last edited by tlosm on 17-Dec-2017 at 03:22 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 17-Dec-2017 at 03:21 PM.

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Tuxedo 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 18:05:16
#363 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@tlosm

mmm...maybe misunterstood, however...

I know that you talk about AEon for unreplyed mail, I dont say anything else, however here in "public" due to some flamers, AmigaOS4 team wasnt much present...and that was a mistake I think...
For the about 100 € that was your decision to be anfry and I respect you, no problem.

For the Linux point...I DONT like linux.
And the ppc hw, however, wasnt the right choice to use it IMHO, no developers, so slow on new hw compared to more cheap and with more developers like x64, ARM ones. so complaining about it wasnt exactly the right decision...the PPC Mac was really a much "common" hw and developed from many years compared to a "rare" p5020 and so expensive...

So, sorry, I can get your point of view, but dont exactly understand why try to use ppc Linux in 2017 when you can use it for almost everything without problems...

AmigaOS4 was anoher thing....no hw available and no choice(or really low choice...),.

I simply think that...

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 18:37:31
#364 ]
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Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Tuxedo

Thanks to linux on X5000 i was able to browse internet right, use office online use dropbox watch youtube in the browser, print go online with wifi, play last mame and last qemu, use sheepshaver use libre office 5. use my 16 GB of ram my 2 Gb of gpu and use the 4 cores in smp . On amigaos all this is not possible today too. and months ago on my x5000 was not possible use amigaos too.
but performances are other thing ...
PS: im selling X5000 for use a A1micro 512mb that i thing is more than sufficient for see amigaos and use most of it programs without issue.
Now i have an old pc here vfio capable im courious to see how it will work in one of my project,

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Tuxedo 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 19:21:04
#365 ]
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Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@tlosm

As said above if I will buy X5000 was for AmigaOS4, Linux maybe was usefull only to fast render my blender projects use advanced browser if needed or so...how ever all of that as an add-on and not for primary use...
using AOS4 on micrA1 with 512mb was pretty useless to my AOS4 use...
I use blender and same time Odyssey and maybe CycassCAD and also looking at some pics with LoView or similar, and also print with Google cloud print thank to ChrisY Young driverand other multitasking tasks...
With my Peg2 G4@1131 with 1GB I can do that quite easly and only a bit slower on Odyssey(especially using Google drive or general browsing on heavy JS sites that was really cpu demanding), with a microA1 especially for the only 512MB of RAM all of that was quite impossible(Odyssey itself hardly works wtih such a low ram)...
So no really need Linux especially since my wife had a quite old but fully functional Win7 PC if I need something that AmigOS cant do(quite nothing btw)...
So...I will use AmigaOS because I love it but only if it can give me the ability to do things I need...
Using AmigaOS (only) as a toy was no use to me like retrocomputing(there's emulators for that imho), but everyone have its ideas naturally.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 17-Dec-2017 23:13:02
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Tuxedo

do not think that x5000/20 is much more faster than the peggy2 overclocked to 1266mhz. you know i had it and improvements are not too much if we dont count the not true used pcie boards and the use of "faster ram" that run not too much faster than the peggy2. i think if you swap your peggy with a x5000 with exit from your pocket extra 2000 euro ... i think you will be start hungry like me after see it truly performances.

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Tuxedo 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 18-Dec-2017 22:30:45
#367 ]
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Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@tlosm

According to my thread:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=30008&forum=2&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0

and blender benchmark thread:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=30693&forum=32&start=200&viewmode=flat&order=0


x5000 seems about 2 time faster on cpu tasks and probably in genreal was really much faster due sata/PCIe modern RAM etc...

So, speaking about OS4, for sure was a good improvement also if not so good as we need and overpriced...
For the Video performances according to what said by Hans seems that with DMA enabled thigs will improve sensibly...and probably also tests like quake timedemo will improve a lot...

The problem was only one...what someone want to do with AmigaOS4?
If only joking and do some tests no worry how to use it(also emulating it with WinUAE on a rather fast modern PC was ok, but if you want to do something "serious", well...you need the faster hw available...and also that wasnt so much fast to do everything naturally...the problem was simply that we are stuck on that crappy ppc architecture that today wasnt improved anymore(if not with $$$$ CPUs)...

And no...also the best PPC Mac around was so fast nowadays...

IMHO naturally...

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 19-Dec-2017 18:41:34
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Tuxedo

Quote:
And no...also the best PPC Mac around was so fast nowadays...


for sure... think this for have a Imac Pro performances in cpu computing you need about 10 G5 quad machine in series . but G5 quad the best apple ppc machine was born near 13 y ago. and in second hand market you can buy it in mint for about 400 euro ... my configuration is a super mega ultra you can have for near 750 euro... and is 2x time faster than X5000/40 in fpu operations plus have altivec .
Comparison?

ioquake3 640x480
G5 Linux 280 Fps Radeon 6570 8x 1.1 Pcie slot
G5 OsX 360 Fps old Nvidia 7800Gtx 16x 1.1 Pcie Slot

X5000/20
Linux 119 fps RadeonHd 6570 16x 2.0 Pcie slot *truly 4x
Os4 95 fps Radeon 7750 with warp3dsi. 16x 2.0 Pcie slot *truly 4x

X5000/40
Linux 135 fps RadeonHd 6570 16x 2.0 Pcie slot *truly 4x
Os4 102 fps Radeon R5 270 with warp3dsi. 16x 2.0 Pcie slot *truly 4x

Integer operations?
Qemu full emulated not kvm systems gave me if build with optimized 970MP gcc 2x performances compared the e5500 optimized gcc performances


Just for understand my G5 Quad Configuration

8 GB Ram
7800Gtx 512mb *the best apple ppc gpu
6570 2Gb
2x SSD
2x SSHD
1x sata3 pci board

at the end ... just for clarify . the big delusion was not the crappy or not crappy hardware but for me was all the situation ... the big delusion for me was the persons involved in all my horrible a-eon adventure.

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Dec-2017 at 08:04 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 07:02 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 06:48 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 06:46 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 06:45 PM.

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MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Spectre660 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 19-Dec-2017 21:12:32
#369 ]
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Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@tlosm

It is not possible to make proper conclusions from these results.

All they show is the optimization of the drivers for the graphics cards .
One would expect the G5 Linux Radeon 6570 8x 1.1 Pcie slot to be better than the MacOS 7800Gtx results if the drivers were optimized.
Passmark rating of the HD6570 is 760 vs 223 for the 7800Gtx .

None of your test reflect Warp 3D Nova under AmigaOS 4.1 as there is currently no ioquake running under Nova.
The only public benchmark that show the possible performance difference between Wap3D and Nova is the Cow3D demo which gives a boost from 3x to 7x faster for Nova across 3 different machines.
https://keasigmadelta.com/blog/warp3d-novas-performance-boost-partially-hidden-by-lazy-cow/
As 3x speed up for the X500/020 under AmigaOS would give at least 285 FPS in theory .






Last edited by Spectre660 on 19-Dec-2017 at 09:15 PM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 19-Dec-2017 at 09:14 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 19-Dec-2017 21:44:46
#370 ]
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Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Spectre660

Quote:
One would expect the G5 Linux Radeon 6570 8x 1.1 Pcie slot to be better than the MacOS 7800Gtx results if the drivers were optimized.

MacOsX use Cuda . and for sure are optimized compared the opensources one.

7750 was using warp3dSI i wrote nova as a mistake

6570 is faster than 7800gtx and 7750 is faster then 6570 ... but on linux PPC g5 quad with 6570 is faster than X5000/40 with 6570 and much more then X5000/20 with 6570 ... buy a g5 quad and you will see the difference.

just for gave you a numbers
timedemo demo2 quakegl on g5 quad 7800gtx 876 fps
timedemo demo2 glquakpro on amd athlon 2 x2 215 with r7 250 643 fps on windows 7 .

all res at 640x480
timedemo demo2 darkplace on g5 quad 7800gtx osx 514 fps (cuda)
timedemo demo2 darkplace on g5 quad 6570hd linux 370 fps (mesa)
timedemo demo2 darkplace on x5000/20 6570 linux 280 fps (mesa)
timedemo demo2 darkplace on x5000/40 6570 linux 303 fps (mesa)
temdemo demo2 darkplace on x5000/20 OS4 ... let me know.

PS:if you have the cow for macosx ppc and for linuxppc gave me the link i will build and test and report.

Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 09:49 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 09:48 PM.

_________________
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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Tuxedo 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 19-Dec-2017 22:18:28
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2341
From: Perugia, ITALY

@tlosm

welll...but from that bench seems x5000 and g5 not so much difference...only linux values was to consider, OSx ones no matter since optimised really well than on Linux/OS4...

Last edited by Tuxedo on 19-Dec-2017 at 10:18 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 19-Dec-2017 22:44:46
#372 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Tuxedo

hu? 70fps? is like you put a 460ex power for every core on x5000/40 for arrive to g5 power and g5 6570 gpu run on pcie 1.1 8x
blender 2,76 blender bench
x5000/40 43 seconds 4T
x5000/20 124 sec 2T
G5 Quad 23 sec 4T

Last edited by tlosm on 19-Dec-2017 at 10:46 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Hans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 20-Dec-2017 22:40:58
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:

7750 was using warp3dSI i wrote nova as a mistake

Could you please go back and correct your post. People may well read that post later, and not see your correction below. Then they'll reach incorrect conclusions from faulty data.

Quote:
hu? 70fps? is like you put a 460ex power for every core on x5000/40 for arrive to g5 power and g5 6570 gpu run on pcie 1.1 8x

I wouldn't compare it to the 460ex. 303 fps vs 370 is about 82% the performance. I'm not sure what your Quad g5 is clocked at, but that sounds pretty decent considering the raw performance specs.

Quote:
blender 2,76 blender bench
x5000/40 43 seconds 4T
x5000/20 124 sec 2T
G5 Quad 23 sec 4T

No doubt, the G5 benefits from altivec here. I wish that altivec came included as standard for most PowerPC chips, instead of being treated as an optional extra.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 20-Dec-2017 at 10:43 PM.
Last edited by Hans on 20-Dec-2017 at 10:41 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 8:10:24
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Hans

i fixed my mistake

the q5 quad is dual 970MP and is the only one model made bu apple like this
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html

in blender is not alivec the difference but the 2x fpu performace power compared the P50xx

just for gave more numbers

on X5000/40 i can have 24 Darkplace running at same time on g5 quad i can have 48 darkplace running at same time

Qemu is 2x more faster on g5 quad in systems emulation
UaeJit 109 mips on quad and 94 mips on X5000

More comparisons?
Firefox on quad i can have 4k 3D running without frame drops ... on X5000 run but full of frame drops.
on both machine 6570 with va and vdpau working.

Im not sharing doom3 benchmark or people will start understand how much is slow x5000 compared an old Pentium4

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Dec-2017 at 08:27 AM.
Last edited by tlosm on 21-Dec-2017 at 08:26 AM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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TRIPOS 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 9:40:53
#375 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:
@Tuxedo

what i say is for sure x5000 is the fastest amigaos machine on the scene



But that’s only because Hyperion never ported OS4 to the faster mainstream PPC H/W that has been available all along. It does in no way mean that the x5000 is fast at all by today’s standards, not even by old PPC standards. Old mainstream Mac H/W beats it, and then we are talking about H/W from 2005 or earlier. This while the world is about to move into 2018.

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 12:23:48
#376 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@TRIPOS

for sure if was AmigaOs available on G5 quad ... for sure X5000 will be not the fastest amigaos machine
and for sure me pay for a machine with performances of odroid xu4 more then 25 times the prize of odroid xu4

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Dec-2017 at 12:25 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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Spectre660 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 13:47:00
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

I have configured my X5000 in a satisfactory way and I am satisfied with its performance .

X5000 configuration information .

Full 3D GPU acceleration under both AmigaOS 4.1 and Linux up to supported levels under both OS'es.
Open Gl 3.3 capabilities under Linux so 3D games run including Christian's Supertuxkart-0.8-1-2 version, Caseycullen's Xonotic version and Torcs.

PCIEx16 = Radeon R7-250 (verde) Graphics Card
PCIEX4 = Empty (Blocked by video Card)
PCIEX1 = SATA 3 Controller (Marvel 88SE9215 chipset) for Linux Hard Drive
PCIEX1 = TP-Link Gigabit Ethernet PCI-Express Network Adapter (TG-3468) works under both OS'es
PCIEX1 = ATI FirePro 2260 Graphics Card (Does not function under AmigaOS 4.1FE)
PCI = Empty
PCI = SoundBlaster LIve! ( Does not Function under Linux)

Linux sound via external USB sound card . AmigaOS 4.1FE sound via the SoundBlaster Live!
Both video cards connected to the same monitor .

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tlosm 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 13:51:57
#378 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2746
From: Amiga land

@Spectre660

for sure you are satisfy from x5000/20 because your is an upgrad upgrade from a sam 460...
for me is a downgrade g5 quad to x5000/40. ... and a big downgrade that prize like a super computer but have the performances like a pc took from trashcan

Last edited by tlosm on 21-Dec-2017 at 01:52 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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Hans 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 21-Dec-2017 23:50:20
#379 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:
@Hans

i fixed my mistake

Thanks.

Quote:
the q5 quad is dual 970MP and is the only one model made bu apple like this
https://everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html

Ah, so it is a 2.5 GHz machine. I suspected as much.

This thread has been going on for almost 4 months now. It's great that you're proud of your 2.5 GHz Quad-core G5, and you've already proven that it's beating it the X5000 in various benchmarks.** The X5000 still looks pretty good, regardless. Perhaps its time to get back to simply enjoying the machines you have, and letting others do the same.

Hans


** Not too surprising given that the quad-core 2.5 GHz 970 based machine was designed to push the limits of what was possible with the technology of the time, whereas the P5020 has more modest goals.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Is X5000 worth its price? Too many issues and limits...
Posted on 22-Dec-2017 2:15:40
#380 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1204
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:

** Not too surprising given that the quad-core 2.5 GHz 970 based machine was designed to push the limits of what was possible with the technology of the time, whereas the P5020 has more modest goals.


You almost make it sound like 2017 H/W ”having modest goals” in relation to 2005 level H/W is a good thing, when at the same time costing like an overpriced high-end, modern Mac?

The x5000 gets hammered by several Mac PPC computers that are so old compared to x5000 that literally the entire Commodore Amiga history (Amigas entire model evolution) could fit into the time gap in between them. it’s not stronger, it’s weaker.

Of course everyone is free to spend as much money as they like on whatever they want. It’s a free world. Do whatever makes you happy. But the topic of the thread is whether x5000 is worth its price considering its limitations, and speed is one such limitation. And the discussion about help processors (GPU’s etc) to play common HD films sounds a lot like back in the 90’s, when Amigas couldn’t even do basic contemporary stuff like playing mp3’s, while common PC’s could, and some people said: “The Amiga can too play mp3’s, all you need is to attach extra H/W to it that takes care of all the actual decompression and playback in 16-bit stereo, that’s all!

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