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      /  It's time to join the forces - Part IV
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AmigaBlitter 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 19-Jan-2018 21:45:08
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3394
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
@AmigaBlitter Since OS4.x development is split between Hyperion Entertainment C.V.B.A., A-Eon Technologies/Amigakit, please tell me who would be speaking on behalf of THAT group to make any deals with anyone else?


You're right, completely; but this doesn't mean that a coordinated, well thinked attemp to settle things can't be done.


I remember that some time ago i did a powerpoint presentation, a project to create a joined developer platform, including not only Amiga platform. I sent the presentation to someone, that invited me to create a new presentation Amiga related only. He was right, cause i was to optimistic with the vision of collaborating with other OS's teams.
Interesting enough is that none these other "invited" team exists today. I would like to find back this (irrealistic) presentation made by an old (young) full of enthusiasm and, yes, i know, Amiga dreamer.

Or if the person i shared the presentation with still have it

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retired

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 0:06:08
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

Quote:
I couldn’t agree more, the benefits of conjoined forces just for a decent maintained web browser would be something that would maintain many peoples interest in using AmigaOS and MorohOS. Unfortunately the stalemate of each camp protecting their ip believing they are the true spiritual successor to Amiga will go down to the very end and death of the community.


actually the browser, in this case odyssey, ie exactly an example thet the camps are able to shar the sources rather tha to try o keep them to themselves. on the contrary os4 camp develoers are inclined to keep their changes to sources that are licensually required to be disclosed, as in case of the, in the meantime outdated, port of firefox for os4. so please if you want to accuse someone, do your math first.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 0:10:26
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@hotrod

Quote:
all ships are sinking


thats the human condition. i prefer to be on a ship, where at least i can try to do something, be it trying to stuff one hole when the other opens, ather than on oane i can only helplessly call for a capitain, who probaly has jumped the wreck to watch it form some safe distance.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 0:11:28
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@Amigo1

Quote:
since when does aros run on amiga?


i wOuld have to google that, but it is some years by now.

Last edited by wawa on 20-Jan-2018 at 02:48 AM.

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recedent 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 8:48:28
#25 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2010
Posts: 206
From: Unknown

OK, let me sum the thread up:

AmigaBlitter: "The overal situation is not good, we must join the forces!"
Random AmigaOS4 user: "Yes, we need to unite all NG solutions to one AmigaOS4!"
Regular AROS user: "If we're to unite, only as AROS!"
Average MorphOS user: "Only MorphOS is the way to go!"
***fighting goes on***

Shouldn't we focus on cooperating in things that we actually could cooperate? Like the web browser?

1. Gather three developers (one for each camp) with one as a project leader and two other as maintainers for each of their platforms.
2. Set a bounty price range that everyone of them agrees.
3. Start a bounty.
4. Gather money.
5. Wait.
6. Oh joy!

Last edited by recedent on 20-Jan-2018 at 08:49 AM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 9:41:10
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 320
From: Unknown

@recedent

Quote:


AmigaBlitter: "The overal situation is not good, we must join the forces!"
Random AmigaOS4 user: "Yes, we need to unite all NG solutions to one AmigaOS4!"
Regular AROS user: "If we're to unite, only as AROS!"
Average MorphOS user: "Only MorphOS is the way to go!"


Joining the forces would be a good idea, if that idea would have come from the OS developers.

But as long as some OSes are blocked by NDAs oder by personal ownership of code this will rarely happen.

The OS developers from Hyperion or MorphOS would give up their property if they would give their code away to others.

Quote:


Shouldn't we focus on cooperating in things that we actually could cooperate? Like the web browser?


Cooperation for applications could be possible, but you may stumble over issues because of different targets.

Examples:
OWB (Origyn Web Browser / Odyssey Web Browser)

AFAIK it is currently supported by Fabien Coeurjoly (MorphOS developer).
Backports are made to AROS (and AOS4). The main problems is a faster/better JavaScript implementation (JIT) difficult for non x86 byte ordering. AROS x86 doesn't seem to have the problems the other AmigaOids have.
So there will not be very much support by AROS users/coders.

FinalWriter

AROS x86 is not 68k compatible, they would need a simple working port of FinalWriter for their system, AOS4 or MorphOS could both use existing versions. A new version of FinalWriter would not make sense to them as long as it doesn't provide new functions.





Last edited by OneTimer1 on 20-Jan-2018 at 09:43 AM.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 9:56:10
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@myself

oh man. posting back from a bar doesnt contribute fo readability.

@recedent

Quote:
Regular AROS user: "If we're to unite, only as AROS!"


you mean me. but i didnt call for people to give up their choices (in favour of aros). i simply indicated, that such a call for "cooperation" we have repeatedly witnessed usually by os4 fans, boils down to such a demand. uniting camps is impossible, i think. but if someone insists on it, we must agree on a base, and in this case neither os4 nor morphos offer an option, because they dont accept involvement from the users, and they already assimilated all the developers they could attract.

honestly i dont see a reason for such threads, but having them regularly pop up, its hard not to comment upon.

Quote:
Shouldn't we focus on cooperating in things that we actually could cooperate? Like the web browser?
...


it has worked before but it become completely unrealistic today. the community grew too small by now. anyway there were few people around who could leverage such a task, not to speak of maintaining it for years. these perople, eiterh left, or become inactive and the few remaining are burried under the load of other essential tasks.

i cannot think of a single person who i had insolence to approach and demand to work on something like this, even when i had enough money to offer, which we do not have.

and what concerns bounties, it isnt the ultimate solution. see os4 port of firefox.

Quote:
6. Oh joy!


so in conclusion no joy, and even if, immediately after that, some other essential problem would become apparent.

@onetimer.

i agree.

Last edited by wawa on 20-Jan-2018 at 09:59 AM.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 10:59:45
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@OneTimer1

As a regular AROS user I'd happily contribute (i.e. stump up money) to to an effort which maintained and developed OWB for all of the platforms. As wawa indicated, this is really too much for one person, but if there was a group bringing pockets of expertise in each area which could be tapped into then you stand a chance. However, as noted by recedent this would take stong leadership to ensure the project progressed and was beneficial to all. Also, unlike FinalWriter, I think regular updates would be vital so that supportors from all platforms could see there was progress for their preferred system

Of course, what makes cooperation more difficult is that all the platforms are evolving away from each other; even the classic will start to evolve away from standard 68k AmigaOS under the influence of Vampire. What we are seeing is an IT verison of Darwinian evolution; a species starts to split into sub-species to fill various environmental niches. If the species are isolated and unable to interbreed (for us read proprietry ownership, NDAs) the variations accumulate ultimately producing new, distincly different species which only fit their niche environment. The problem with this specialisation is that it's very easy for the niche's environment to collapse and the species to become extinct...

Cheers,
Nigel.

Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 11:01 AM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 11:01 AM.

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Fairdinkem 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 11:06:02
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 477
From: Victoria, Australia

@wawa

Dude the browser port to AmigaOS is what I want more of no accusations were made in this case, so please relax and don’t shout me down. A full conjoined effort from all camps for a maintained browser is what I want, even more than the small team of Fab and Kas1e and the other contributors have achieved so far. Imagine all teams working together to overcome endien issues and maintain a modern browser with all new features etc for all to enjoy wouldn’t that be great?

_________________
Pegasos 2 G4 - AmigaOS 4.1 FE / MorphOS 3.6

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 13:32:13
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@Fairdinkem

+1

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 13:42:24
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@Fairdinkem

as i said odyssey in its current shape and form is already a shared project. the sources are online. feel free to find contributors among the users of all camps. myself, i dont know of any left.

now, i dont know if you imagine how much skill, time and work is necessary to maintain it. i would welcome if there was someone, who of his own interest would pick up that task at least for some time. but i think you need to realize that if it wasnt for fun of it, but rather a contracted work, you are very very unlikely to gather funds to reward a volonteer.

that said, there is no practical necessity for an updated browser, as much as for any other program on any amigalike system. its all just fancy, because people have pcs and mobile devices at hand. no software propsal will radically change the situation anymore. enjyo what you have and do not long for the impossible.

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Signal 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 14:25:10
#32 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 612
From: USA

@

Threads like this just go on and on and zilch is accomplished. Perhaps the problem(s) is not the various OS's but rather the lack of a common platform.

I would not suggest any of the current hardware as being proper Amiga hardware as they all suffer from the same lack of multi-processor functionality that is key to what could be called an Amiga.

The OS need not be multi threaded if the hardware does the heavy lifting and the various tasks only need OS service on a preemptive hierarchy manner. Just like the original design.

Now you get three or more OS's striving to best utilize Amigaish hardware and then you can talk about cooperation for the benefit of all developers that wish to be in on the next Amiga revolution.

I state again, todays hardware is not Amigaish, Amiga-like, nor will it ever be a PLATFORM for Amiga.

Capisce?

Now go forth, explore and find a multi-processor system to run a multi-processor OS on and then talk about cooperation.


_________________
Tinkering with computers.

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hotrod 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 16:16:16
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2776
From: Stockholm, Sweden

@wawa

I so agree and that makes perfect sense too :)

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ne_one 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 16:24:18
#34 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 771
From: Unknown

@Signal

Quote:

Signal wrote:

Threads like this just go on and on and zilch is accomplished. Perhaps the problem(s) is not the various OS's but rather the lack of a common platform.


And the lack of a guiding force that isn't woefully incompetent or corrupt and a puerile but ageing user base that wants to maintain the status quo.

The post Commodore era has been a disaster marked by scams and squabbling.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 17:32:32
#35 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@wawa

Well, the point is its not impossible. At the moment I'm very happily using exclusively AROS systems at home. We do have one Windows laptop at home on the insistence of the children; it very quickly screwed up its own Windows installation and as a result hasn't been touched for six months. The children have an iPad and an Android tablet, but anything that involves online shopping is done on AROS. I do the bulk of my professional work on AROS too.

I guess its like the difference between owning a classic car you just take out at weekends and your daily drive; I don't just want to my preferred style of system for nostagia, I want to use it daily. But the web browser has a particular importance in any modern system, and if it doesn't get updated it is game over.

Cheers,
Nigel.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 17:33:59
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

Sorry - double post.

Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 05:50 PM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 05:49 PM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 05:48 PM.

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wawa 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 18:23:40
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5930
From: Unknown

@ntromans

Quote:
I want


look, what you want and what somebody else may fancy to deliver are two different things.
why dont you simply take the odyssey sources from deadwoods repo and try to compile it as is, just for starters..
and if you now say that you are not a coder, then i confess that im probably less of a coder than most of people here, who apparently usually work in some it field anyway.

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ntromans 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 19:15:37
#38 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jul-2004
Posts: 103
From: West Midlands, UK

@wawa

I'm definietly not a coder at anywhere near that level and certainly don't have the time to get to grips with a fiendishly difficult piece of software like OWB, but I would definitely be willing to pay for it; if OWB was a commercial package I'd happily shell out for it, just as I do for Holywood. In terms of 'want', well, actually it is more like need. If all of a sudden the only alternative left for an Amiga-like system was a hobbyist retro 68k one, then that woudn't be what I need for my day to day work and I'd be forced to move on. Don't get me wrong, I've absolutely nothing against those here for whom that is the goal, but it just doesn't work for me.

Probably I'd be forced to live with Linux, or maybe look to Haiku (although after a quick glance at their webpage their hardware support looks more limited than AROS's). But I really hope it doesn't come to that; I love the Amiga phiolosphy and way of doing things. Even if AROS development peters out (and again I very much hope that is not the case), there's some hope with the proposed MorphOS on x64.

Cheers,
Nigel.

P.S. I suppose on reflection the big difference between my viewpoint and the majority of people here is that I've never viewed the Amiga, or systems which follow the Amiga phiolosphy, as a hobby or simply entertainment; for me it is a tool. I bought my A500 to run DTP and spreadsheet software for work, and have pretty much continued in that vein ever since. It's a tool I'm really happy to use, it fits me well, but if at some point that tool can no longer do its job effectively it will be time to find another one. Or retire, whichever comes first...

Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 11:29 PM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 07:47 PM.
Last edited by ntromans on 20-Jan-2018 at 07:16 PM.

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Signal 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 20:54:10
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 612
From: USA

@ne_one

Quote:

ne_one wrote:
@Signal

Quote:

Signal wrote:

Threads like this just go on and on and zilch is accomplished. Perhaps the problem(s) is not the various OS's but rather the lack of a common platform.


And the lack of a guiding force that isn't woefully incompetent or corrupt and a puerile but ageing user base that wants to maintain the status quo.

The post Commodore era has been a disaster marked by scams and squabbling.



I am proposing new hardware configured Black Box similar to to original hardware where the elegance and simplicity of all Amiga wannabes can flourish and advance into a future regardless of compatibility with the past but not so radical that those gems of programs can't be brought forward and be developed on a common platform.

Does that sound like I want to maintain the damn Status Quo.

Right now the status quo is to point fingers, call names, and DO nothing else.

We either have power as a community, or we bow down to what is,,,,,,,, The Status Quo.

_________________
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AmigaMac 
Re: It's time to join the forces - Part IV
Posted on 20-Jan-2018 23:34:19
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2002
Posts: 1010
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun!

@AmigaBlitter

It's definitely long past due to bury the hatchet and make amends. The future of the Amiga platform as a whole needs much collaboration and synergy amongst the factions (AOS, MorphOS, AROS, etc...) in order to keep the dream alive.

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