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/  Forum Index
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      /  common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
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terminills 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 11:22:32
#41 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1377
From: Unknown

@amigang


Then whats the point of AmigaOS, AROS or MorphOS at that point?

_________________
Support AROS sponsor a developer.

"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 12:22:15
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@terminills

exactly.

@amigang

people were posting requests for an improved browser, especially for big endian platforms, all over the place for ages in kilometer long threads, this is a thread on actual attempt on this.

this is not for ranting on personal fancies.

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nikosidis 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 14:43:26
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 933
From: Norway, Oslo

This in a way only show how small this community is right now.
Almost no interest in the most important piece of software for any OS.

Some years ago, how much money did the bounty for Firefox recive?




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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 15:18:54
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
Some years ago, how much money did the bounty for Firefox recive?


admittedly, porting firefox to something as obscure as an amiga like platform is a completely different task than simply getting some piece of software compiled for another slightly different target. which is, what has been achieved so far. and it wouldnt even be possible without massive help from kalamatee, who implemented a whole set of c++11 features into our headers as well as if the net wouldnt be providing templates for many encountered problems.

Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 03:23 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 15:41:54
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9638
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hans

Quote:
(CMake doesn't work properly, at least on AmigaOS 4.x); it requires a cross-compiler.


I had issues due to the shell getting confused over pathnames. But ABC shell was updated that fixed those. The CMake version we have was better than in the latest Linux Mint which I found amusing.

But CMake isn't easy to get going. It used to be static. But the current version used SOBJs. IIRC there wasn't a list for all needed. So when I installed I kept running it, downloaded and installed what it wanted, ad infinitum. By the end of it I had already installed what it wanted and it didn't see it so I grabbed a bunch of objects together and hacked them in my system so it worked.

It no wonder people avoid building on OS4. Too complicated and it tends to break anyway. Plus even on the fastest machines it's still the slowest way to build things.

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ASiegel 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 15:44:51
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
This in a way only show how small this community is right now. Almost no interest in the most important piece of software for any OS.

Not exactly.

At best, it shows that there is limited interest in a port of a 3 years old version of Odyssey to a CPU architecture that, if we exclude emulation and other virtual reimplementations, is likely too slow to adequately run the browser in the first place.

To me, the tepid interest is by no means surprising.

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nikosidis 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:02:21
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 933
From: Norway, Oslo

@ASiegel

Yes, the 68k version is to me funny but I'm talking NG systems.
Sorry not being clear about that.
Even if Wawa is set on the 68k version it is ment to be a project for all Amiga platforms.

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Hypex 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:09:09
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9638
From: Greensborough, Australia

@amigang

I first looked at AmiCygnix with a view to solving the browser problem. But it it's a tad slow and always looks fake. So we might as well run TimberWolf. LOL.

I tried to get FusionPPC to work on WarpOSEmu and got somee interrupt error. I didn't get around to looking into it. Was going to hack the API if I could to get it working.

I also tried to compile MOL on OS4. I was getting somewhere with it. But it turned out all I had done is get the machine configurator compiling and not any real code.

But the problem with suggesting a VM running on top of OS4, as an example, is that OS4 is not sophisticated enough. For example, in this case, you'd need to run a kernel with multi-tasking, multi-threading, memory protection, virtual memory and separate address space on an OS that has almost none of those things.

I've thought about this. And you might as well do the opposite. You might as well run OS4 in a VM on top of Linux. I've ran AROS on top of Linux on PPC and it's damnned fast. It wasn't Icaros. And those demos slowed it down. But it works well.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:26:12
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

Quote:
At best, it shows that there is limited interest in a port of a 3 years old version of Odyssey


you keep hammering on this and the other issue. admittedly there are too many changes since deadwoods latest webkit version in comparison to the current one that you can simply iron the safari webkit over them (which also appears to be outdated) or use internetzekls diff. that doesnt mean however, that basing on these diffs a current, or close to current version cant be put together. but even if i have already started to add aros code to my webkit fork involvement of skilled coders will be likely mandatory to achieve anything.

Quote:
to a CPU architecture that, if we exclude emulation and other virtual reimplementations, is likely too slow to adequately run the browser in the first place.


i am tired to repeat, my attempt and repository is not exclusively m68k oriented. i have also already compiled a ppc version. whether trying to compile odyssey for m68k appears to be rediculous for any of you, it is my point of interest as of current. the m68k related changes to the code are very slight. mostly it is simply related to implementing a platform that wasnt there in the first place. few others are based on m68k webkit fork for debian (whoaa?). also there are extensions to vapor.h that are necessary in this respect (parametrizing of callback hooks for m68k, mostly mui stuff).

we could work on this together. i by no means consider myself anything else than a bloody amateur who is simply trying pick a task in absence of anyone better. i do even wonder that im progressing at all. i wouod love to work and exchange with the knowledgable ppc fraction allright. but, with all due respect, if all you want to submit is putting this attempt down from a high horse, then it doesnt help much.

Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 04:28 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 04:27 PM.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:31:13
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Hypex

whats wrong with crosscompiling for os4 on a fast x86 and linux? aint there templates how that gets done? i think compiling odyssey natively is almost out of question withot fast cpu and multicore support to run compiling jobs in paralell.

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arthoropod 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:42:50
#51 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@wawa

I think Andre has some really good points.
And as a MorphOS developer who might have some perspective on Fab's browser, he probably has clued into the real issue.

We need a shift to a little endian ISA.
Reworking WebKit for big endian platforms has become too problematic.

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nikosidis 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 16:58:54
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 933
From: Norway, Oslo

Yes, this could be the case.

It is simply only AROS that could see a worthwhile update since it can run on mothern CPU platforms.

Wawa: I don't what to be negative or show stopper but as you say you are amatur and Andres is far from it. Might be better to try to focus on the i386, x64 version if you have interest in it. I can try to help out.
We could try to find devs. from outside amigaworld if you know what is needed.

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Mr_Capehill 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:24:40
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2003
Posts: 1923
From: Yharnam

@wawa

Can it be stack-related? Do you know whereabouts the code stops (serial prints or such)?

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:34:16
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
Might be better to try to focus on the i386, x64 version if you have interest in it. I can try to help out.


as you know i have already compiled an x86 abiv1 version and provided it. should i ever be able to get odyssey updated to a later webkit x86 version will surely be the easiest to deliver and will happen by the way, as it has happened now.

i dont really have an interest in aros x86, yet im supporting it. though please dont try to force me to do other things than those than that rock my boat.

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arthoropod 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:38:25
#55 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2018
Posts: 63
From: Gotham

@Mr_Capehill

No, it's primarily issues related to coding specific to little endian processors.
And from what I've seen, I don't think Wawa would be adverse to an ISA switch or supporting AROS.

I am primarily a MorphOS user, but I'm exploring AROS this Summer on PPC, ARM, and X64 platforms.

And while the 68K is one of my all time favor ISAs (I worked for companies building systems and designing software for 68K based machines), it's been a dead ISA since the turn of the century.

Only Power 9 and up hold any promise for Power PCs, ARM still hasn't gained a foothold in the desktop market (which might not matter), and its never safe to count the X64 out.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:41:23
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@arthoropod

Quote:
I think Andre has some really good points.


first of all, i dont get why you need another account every other week, iggy.. btw whats about your aros ppc project? maybe its as sensless as my odyssey for amiga?

well, i actually hold a siegel in rather high regard, among others as a person who took responsibility about p2p, as an initiative to collect and control bounties not just for one offshot of amiga one has a preference for. the less i understand disencouraging attitude he displays, even if i openly admit that i might not be able to pull this stuff all alone.

now if i was only bragging on this or that forum about what would i do if others did that for me, but im actually working on it, even if it takes me much longer than anyone else, since im probably least skilled in programming from all of you.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:47:17
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@Mr_Capehill

Quote:

Mr_Capehill wrote:
@wawa

Can it be stack-related?


no. stack is enough. besides it doesnt crash.

Quote:
Do you know whereabouts the code stops (serial prints or such)?


im currently looking at
Source/WebCore/platform/network/curl/ResourceHandleManager.cpp
because latest i could catch via snoopdos is coming from there, after that
odyssey doesnt get get to be loading scrollbar theme as it should. certainly, now a lot of manual work is awaiting, gdb would be much better in this case, but i have never got it to work with m68k.

Quote:

19 [1] CLI GetVar owb Alias Fail..
20 [1] CLI FindVar owb Alias Fail..
21 [1] CLI FindVar echo Local Fail..
22 [1] CLI ChangeDir SYS: ..
23 [1] CLI ChangeDir aros:Extras/Networking/Apps ..
24 [1] CLI Open owb Read OK ..
/25 [1] CLI Load owb ..
26 [1] CLI Open owb Read OK ..
25 [1] CLI Load owb OK ..
27 [1] CLI ChangeDir aros:Extras/Networking/Apps ..
28 [1] owb FindVar __debug_mem Local Fail..
/29 [1] owb RunCommand 5000000 ----..
30 [1] owb OpenLib z1.library Ver 1 OK ..
31 [1] owb OpenLib posixc.library Ver 0 OK ..
32 [1] owb OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
/33 [1] owb OpenLib pixman.library Ver 3 ..
/34 Lib & Dev Loader D Load pixman.library ..
/35 Lib & Dev Loader D Open pixman.library Read ..
36 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib stdcio.library Ver 0 OK ..
37 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
33 [1] owb OpenLib pixman.library Ver 3 OK ..
38 [1] owb OpenLib freetype2.library Ver 6 OK ..
/39 Lib & Dev Loader D Load freetype2.library ..
/40 Lib & Dev Loader D Open freetype2.library Read ..
41 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
42 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib utility.library Ver 36 OK ..
43 [1] owb OpenLib png.library Ver 52 OK ..
44 [1] owb OpenLib z1.library Ver 1 OK ..
45 [1] owb OpenLib posixc.library Ver 0 OK ..
46 [1] owb OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
/47 [1] owb OpenLib openurl.library Ver 7 ..
48 Lib & Dev Loader D Load openurl.library Fail..
49 Lib & Dev Loader D Open openurl.library Read Fail..
50 Lib & Dev Loader D Load libs/openurl.library Fail..
51 Lib & Dev Loader D Open libs/openurl.library Read Fail..
/52 Lib & Dev Loader D Load openurl.library ..
/53 Lib & Dev Loader D Open openurl.library Read ..
/54 Lib & Dev Loader D Load libs:openurl.library ..
55 Lib & Dev Loader D Open libs:openurl.library Read OK ..
47 [1] owb OpenLib openurl.library Ver 7 OK ..
56 [1] owb OpenLib rexxsyslib.library Ver 33 OK ..
/57 [1] owb OpenLib jfif.library Ver 52 ..
/58 Lib & Dev Loader D Load jfif.library ..
/59 Lib & Dev Loader D Open jfif.library Read ..
60 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib stdcio.library Ver 0 OK ..
61 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
57 [1] owb OpenLib jfif.library Ver 52 OK ..
62 [1] owb OpenLib stdcio.library Ver 0 OK ..
63 [1] owb OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
64 [1] owb OpenLib posixc.library Ver 0 OK ..
65 [1] owb OpenLib stdcio.library Ver 0 OK ..
66 [1] owb OpenLib stdc.library Ver 0 OK ..
/67 [1] owb OpenLib codesets.library Ver 6 ..
/68 Lib & Dev Loader D Load codesets.library ..
/69 Lib & Dev Loader D Open codesets.library Read ..
70 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib utility.library Ver 37 OK ..
/71 Lib & Dev Loader D Lock LIBS:Charsets Read ..
72 Lib & Dev Loader D Open LIBS:Charsets/iso8859-10.tx Read OK ..
73 Lib & Dev Loader D Open LIBS:Charsets/windows-1250. Read OK ..
74 Lib & Dev Loader D Open LIBS:Charsets/windows-1252. Read OK ..
75 Lib & Dev Loader D OpenLib locale.library Ver 37 OK ..
/76 Lib & Dev Loader D GetVar CODEPAGE Any ..
77 Lib & Dev Loader D FindVar CODEPAGE Local Fail..
78 Lib & Dev Loader D Open ENV:CODEPAGE Read Fail..
67 [1] owb OpenLib codesets.library Ver 6 OK ..
/79 Lib & Dev Loader D Open ENVARC:CODEPAGE Read ..
80 [1] owb OpenLib cybergraphics.library Ver 51 OK ..
81 [1] owb OpenLib workbench.library Ver 44 OK ..
82 [1] owb OpenLib intuition.library Ver 36 OK ..
83 [1] owb OpenLib iffparse.library Ver 33 OK ..
84 [1] owb OpenLib graphics.library Ver 39 OK ..
85 [1] owb OpenLib locale.library Ver 39 OK ..
86 [1] owb OpenLib utility.library Ver 36 OK ..
87 [1] owb OpenLib bsdsocket.library Ver 4 OK ..
/88 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_DEBUG Any* ..
89 [1] owb FindVar OWB_CURL_DEBUG Local Fail..
90 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_CURL_DEBUG Read Fail..
88 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_DEBUG Any* Fail..
91 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_CURL_DEBUG Read Fail..
/92 [1] owb GetVar OWB_POLLTIME Any* ..
93 [1] owb FindVar OWB_POLLTIME Local Fail..
94 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_POLLTIME Read Fail..
92 [1] owb GetVar OWB_POLLTIME Any* Fail..
95 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_POLLTIME Read Fail..
/96 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_REUSE Any* ..
97 [1] owb FindVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_REUSE Local Fail..
98 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_CURL_FORBID_REUSE Read Fail..
96 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_REUSE Any* Fail..
99 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_CURL_FORBID_REUS Read Fail..
/100 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_ENCODING Any* ..
101 [1] owb FindVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_ENCODING Local Fail..
102 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_CURL_FORBID_ENCODIN Read Fail..
100 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORBID_ENCODING Any* Fail..
103 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_CURL_FORBID_ENCO Read Fail..
/104 [1] owb GetVar OWB_DISABLE_MOBILE_COMPRESS Any* ..
105 [1] owb FindVar OWB_DISABLE_MOBILE_COMPRESS Local Fail..
106 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_DISABLE_MOBILE_COMP Read Fail..
104 [1] owb GetVar OWB_DISABLE_MOBILE_COMPRESS Any* Fail..
107 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_DISABLE_MOBILE_C Read Fail..
/108 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORCE_SSLv3 Any* ..
109 [1] owb FindVar OWB_CURL_FORCE_SSLv3 Local Fail..
110 [1] owb Open ENV:OWB_CURL_FORCE_SSLv3 Read Fail..
108 [1] owb GetVar OWB_CURL_FORCE_SSLv3 Any* Fail..
111 [1] owb Open ENVARC:OWB_CURL_FORCE_SSLv3 Read Fail..

Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 05:49 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 24-May-2018 at 05:47 PM.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 17:58:11
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@wawa

again. this thread is meant as a place to report progress on the attempt i started. i am happy about any help and competent advice. but i dont want to engage into meta discussions about what else should i better do instead. whoever has a different idea is welcome to start working on it.

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ASiegel 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 24-May-2018 18:20:40
#59 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2013
Posts: 185
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

Quote:
Yes, the 68k version is to me funny but I'm talking NG systems. Sorry not being clear about that. Even if Wawa is set on the 68k version it is ment to be a project for all Amiga platforms.

"Meant to be" does not mean anything though. Just by declaring world peace and the end of all crime, that does not magically make it real.

If wawa or anybody else manages to have a newer version of Webkit run reliably on big endian platforms than is currently available, I am sure this will pique the interest of both users and developers. But until that happens, it seems perfectly reasonable to not get overly excited.

@wawa
Quote:
the less i understand disencouraging attitude he displays, even if i openly admit that i might not be able to pull this stuff all alone.

You are miscategorizing my feedback. I gave some very specific pointers regarding what I think is the fastest route to get a usable 68K port up and running, despite having no personal interest in 68K hardware.

Either way, back then and now I was primarily trying to point out that I find the repeated complaints regarding a perceived lack of interest in this effort to be very much unfounded. The muted reaction and wait-and-see attitude seems quite rational to me.

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wawa 
Re: common odyssey upgrade effort and repository.
Posted on 25-May-2018 0:14:27
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6190
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

seriously, you put a bit too much expectation on me to start with. i understand that you have certain experience that leads you to believe in certain most convenient way to engage the problem. but my abilities and my deficites may differ and therefore it may be that i (personally) need to take another way. for instance i had to learn how to build such a big project at all. i probably wouldnt be able to do that without aros toolchain. and then one needs to familiarize oneself with cmake. im not saying a different approach is impossible or that one cannot use mrophos or os4 practices instead, but this is how it was possible to me to proceed given my background.

and i am listening to your hints. in fact i have started work to get current webkit to compile with aros toolchain and to incorporate aros and internetzels patches or adapt their merits. i do not promise anything though. im also not complaining very much about the general passivity of the scene, however i find it curious that you can have people writing walls of text about some illusionary subject, but as soon as some work is being undertaken in given direction they all fell instantly silent.

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