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      /  Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
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Amigo1 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 9-Jun-2018 7:50:08
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1499
From: Cork Ireland

@AmigaBlitter

As much as I love my x1000, I would sell it and buy one of these if it run AmigaOS. At least if it did as well as the x1000 does run the OS and the software. The x5000 unfortunately feels still unstable.

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Hammer 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 10-Jun-2018 18:29:07
#82 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3936
From: Australia

@arthoropod

Quote:

arthoropod wrote:
@Hypex

GOOD point, Power 9 is not emulating a PPC, its code compatible with big endian PowerPCs running in a session under the hypervisor.
It would just be the other SAM460 hardware that would be emulated.

Giving Power 9 a big advantage over X64's reliance on qemu.

We've seen how long it took to get decent 68K performance on X86, how much of a drag will qemu be emulating Power?

Right now, the best platforms for SAM460 emulation would be the Talos II and the PowerMac 11,2, both capable of running PPC code natively.

And as I've pointed out, no X64 single cpu platform is capable of matching Power 9's maximum of 88 concurrent threads.

Each Power 9 CPU core can issue 8 instructions, 24 Core version has 192 instruction issue per cycle.
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ibm/microarchitectures/power9
The bottleneck is Dispatch stage with 6 instruction issue per cycle rate. Sharing 6 instructions per cycle rate with 4 threads.... Power 9 is not a quantum leap CPU design.


Each Ryzen CPU can issue 4 instructions + 4 to 8 instructions from decode cache, 32 Core version has 256 to 384 instruction issue per cycle
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/microarchitectures/zen

Each Skylakke X CPU can issue 5 instructions + 6 instructions from decode cache, 28 Core version has 302 instruction issue per cycle
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/intel/microarchitectures/skylake_(server)


Intel X64 Skylake HD GT2 has 24 IEU for vector processing.
Intel X64 Skylake Iris Pro GT3e has 48 IEU for vector processing.
Intel X64 Skylake Iris Pro GT4e has 72 IEU for vector processing.

Each IEU has 7 threads with each thread having 128 SIMD8 32bit payload.
24 IEU model has 168 threads.

Each Skylake X CPU core has two 512 bit AVX v3 SIMD units.


AMD X64 Ryzen Mobile has Vega 11 CU with 704 stream processing for vector processing. Each CU has 1024 threads.

----

AMD Epyc 2 has 64 cores with 128 threads and sampling H2 2018 this year. Prototype shown in Computex 2018.


Heavy vector processing are shifted into GpGPU e.g. AMD Vega 64 has 13.1 TFLOPS and 65536 threads.

Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 07:09 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 07:06 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 07:05 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 06:59 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 06:55 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Jun-2018 at 06:36 PM.

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 10-Jun-2018 20:37:38
#83 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Hi Hammer,

Before we start, as per discussions a couple of weeks ago, with some messages back and forth with the sysops, I have changed my account to reflect my actual name.

On Zen, I've been impressed since its release.

I can't afford Intel Skylake X CPUs.
The cheapest i9 Skylake X cpu I can find costs $939.
And it draws 140 watts.

Only the best Ryzen mobile cpus have a Vega11 gpus.
Not that that matters as outside of laptop applications I'd eventually use a discrete graphics card.
Right now, I'm looking at the slower 65 watt components like the 2700, myself.
I can always upgrade later.
And I am considering a Ryzen laptop, as soon as I see a few more that aren't 2 in 1 systems.
My last laptop was i7 based, and my current i5 laptop isn't cutting it.

EPYC is fair game for comparison, since Power 9 isn't really aimed at the desktop, and EPYC not intended for the desktop either.
But clock speeds for EPYC start out fairly low.

While there are some cheaper EPYC cpus, the 32 core version, which has a standard clock of 2.2 GHz costs $4,619.99 and draws 180 watts.

Still, it nice to see AMD focusing on AMD64 server chips and not ARM.
The few ARM boards that got out were awful.

Right now benchmarks favor X64 cpus, the only bench I've seen that put Power9 in a more favorable light was OSBench.

However, X64 cpus run PPC code poorly via QEMU.
Once the kinks are ironed out, Power 9 will not require QEMU to run our current PPC software.
And with KVM, both little and big endian sessions should be possible.

I suppose if your only interest is running 68K software, then a X86 or X64 system running at at least 1GHz should be adequate.

You don't need server grade hardware for that.

My primary interest in Power 9 is that it would make a nice final platform for PPC NG, where the new features we've been talking about could be implemented while still having full backward compatibility.

Since all these multi-core/multi-thread cpus you been touting don't significantly improve on clock speed, and Amigoid OS currently don't support SMP, AmigaOS or MorphOS will run better on a single thread of a Power 9 system than it would on any X64 platform because the code can be run 'bare metal' (natively).
That can't be done on X64, and the overhead needed by QEMU will always disadvantage that platform.

Doesn't matter if you throw a $1000 i9 at the task or a $4000 EPYC cpu.

So unless we are talking recompilation, your argument is pointless.

Last edited by JimIgou on 10-Jun-2018 at 09:57 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 10-Jun-2018 at 09:55 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 10-Jun-2018 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 10-Jun-2018 at 09:00 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 10-Jun-2018 at 08:38 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 12-Jun-2018 0:52:58
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3936
From: Australia

@JimIgou

FYI, EPYC's 32 cores has been released as 12 nm ThreadRipper 32 cores. You can't say EPYC tech to remain as server only products. Both EPYC and ThreadRipper shares the same socket infrastructure.

I'm waiting for 7 nm Ryzen Mobile 2-in1 13 inch tablet/laptop.


Single thread runs better on lesser core count e.g. 5Ghz on Intel's recent CPUs.

My argument is not about QEMU issues.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FE U1 + MS Windows 10 Pro X64
Intel i7-7820X @ 4.5 Ghz, DDR4-3600 32 GB RAM, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti

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wawa 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 12-Jun-2018 1:51:13
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6155
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

Quote:
I have changed my account to reflect my actual name.


doesnt seem you changed any account, instead you opened another one.. lol ;)

Last edited by wawa on 12-Jun-2018 at 01:57 AM.
Last edited by wawa on 12-Jun-2018 at 01:51 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 10:30:58
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@thread

fastest computer in the world is a Power 9 based computer:

https://www.fudzilla.com/news/ai/46498-ibm-powers-fastest-summit-supercomputer


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bennymee 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 10:57:29
#87 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 497
From: Netherlands

@AmigaBlitter


Raptor lite, lite as workstation lite.

As a normal user 2 or 4 DDR4 slots and ATX / MicroATX would be really lite ;)

Technically it could be possible imho, as the TR4 socket from the Threadripper wth it 4094 pins is possible on MicroATX. And this compares a little to P9. https://www.anandtech.com/show/12272/asrock-unveil-their-new-microatx-
threadripper-motherboard-the-x399m-taichi




So more pro-consumer based would be much more interesting for 'us' here :)

But nevertheless great development from RaptorCS.

Last edited by bennymee on 14-Jun-2018 at 10:59 AM.
Last edited by bennymee on 14-Jun-2018 at 10:59 AM.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 13:41:12
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@bennymee

Quote:

bennymee wrote:
@AmigaBlitter


Raptor lite, lite as workstation lite.

As a normal user 2 or 4 DDR4 slots and ATX / MicroATX would be really lite ;)

So more pro-consumer based would be much more interesting for 'us' here :)

But nevertheless great development from RaptorCS.


RaptorCS is fairly new in the game and probably going through some growing pains. It probably would not hurt to drop a line to them expressing your thoughts.

I think a full ATX would be possible in a relatively short time frame.

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 15:24:02
#89 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@wawa

Like you would know, I was offered the option to change the name on the other account and can produce the PM to prove it.
Why don't you stop pontificating on crap you know nothing about?

It's one of your signature traits.

@Signal

Quote:
I think a full ATX would be possible in a relatively short time frame.


Its in the works.

And I've contacted Raptor Engineering about that, and some questions I had on the Talos II Lite.

Since the Lite version only supports two PCI-E slots, I asked about the potential to further break the PCI-E x8 slot apart (it is already part of an X16 split with an onboard controller).

They've responded positively to this, and stated they have several test platforms using devices to do this.

Even with only the PCI-E channels the TalosII Lite supports, an ATX board with one x16 (or two X8 slots), an x4 slot, three X1 slots, and one or two PCI-E slots could be created.

And unlike the X5000, with its four lane X16 video card slot, and X8 slot on a Gen 4.0 PCI-E system would have the same bandwidth as an x16 Gen 3 slot.
A sixteen lane x16 slot would have more bandwidth than current video cards require.

Last edited by JimIgou on 15-Jun-2018 at 07:50 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 03:36 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 15:35:47
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

I see, again, another missed opportunity.

It's seems to me that we are wasting time

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 15:45:32
#91 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
It's seems to me that we are wasting time


Doesn't it though?
We are sitting here waiting for the release of hardware that is dated when compared to a 2005 Apple system.

Its the hobbyist mentality prevalent in the community.

I build hobbyist related boards using 6809, 6309, and 68HC000 cpus.

But if its going to run at 1GHz or higher, its going to have to be built with more practical intentions.

When OS4 and MorphOS development was started, they were considered serious commercial products.

With Windows progressively getting worse, and no other alternatives,I may have to fully adopt Linux.

That community proved that something started by hobbyists can grow into a realistic alternative.

Last edited by JimIgou on 16-Jun-2018 at 02:09 AM.

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Signal 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 17:16:08
#92 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@JimIgou

Quote:

And unlike the X5000, with its four lane X16 video card slot, and ..........

Naaaah, that can't be right. Really?

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 18:13:15
#93 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@Signal

Yes, the e5500 and e6500 cored cpus dedicate too many SerDes lanes to NIC interfaces.
But they do operate at the Gen 2.0 specs of 5 GHz.
Still, the X1000 supported more SerDes lanes to begin with.

AFAIR, the X5000 only supplies four PCI-E lanes to its x16 video card slot.
These DO operate at twice the speed of the lanes used on the A1222 though (Gen 2.0 vs Gen 1.0 PCI-E).

And again, if the A1222 supports SATA II and a NIC, without a switch I don't see how they are providing more than three lanes to Tabor's video card slot.

It should be four, but Freescale/NXP PPCs do not allow SerDes lanes dedicated to NIC interfaces to be used for other purposes.
And SATA II would require two PCI-E lanes (thus two SerDes lanes).
Six minus two? That leaves four.

So how do you provide for the video card AND the network interface(s)?

Look, some of us have been poring over the tech specs for this cpu, and there are issues here that no one has brought up with the community as a whole.

I supported Paul Gentle when he suggested that Qorlq cpus were the direction to go when the X1000 was being introduced.

But I don't think backtracking to a crippled 32 bit variant makes sense.

Edit - Sorry for a multiplicity of clarifications, but according to the second page of this:
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/fact-sheet/QP1022FS.pdf
Sharing allows for four PC-E lanes.

Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 10:00 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 07:13 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 07:00 PM.
Last edited by JimIgou on 14-Jun-2018 at 06:14 PM.

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Signal 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 20:25:57
#94 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

@JimIgou

Your post on the X5000 limitations is -- well, saddening.

I view the P9 offerings as an opportunity for growth. That of course is up to the powers that be. (shrug)

I don't do retro projects, but rather small controllers. I have used things like the BASIC Stamp for many applications. Some silly, some serious, people(?) I'll probably switch to something like the Pi zero for that stuff, they are certainly cheap enough.

It's really sad what happened to the PA6T. Imagine a dual PA6T Amiga. It would have taken some OS innovation to make it work, but wow!

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 14-Jun-2018 21:54:23
#95 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@Signal

Yeah, I rather liked the PA6T.
It was actually Paul Gentle that told me it wasn't an option for new devices.

Trevor is lucky Varisys was a previous customer of PA Semi, that's how they arranged to purchase them.

AMCC isn't developing PPC, NXP has a long term availability program, but they aren't developing further either.

The biggest problem I see with Qorlq cpus is that they have multiple SerDes channels dedicated to network interfaces that cannot be redirected.

On the A1222, I just saw a diagram of how four PCI-E lanes can be supplied to the PCI-E slot, while SATA and the NICs still get supported, and it involves sharing resources.

It can't post the diagram, as images must be posted via urls.

But its on page two of this pdf.

https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/fact-sheet/QP1022FS.pdf

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Hypex 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 17-Jun-2018 16:58:01
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9513
From: Greensborough, Australia

@arthoropod

I knew the G5 Macs were pretty good as far as PowerPC machines go, aside from the built in noisy heater, but wasn't aware that they enabled 10.4 for a 64-bit build. I knew 10.5 came in 64-bit also.

Yes it looks like big endian PPC is on it's last legs. And the last gasp for air will be PPC running on little endian for a time. Though it almost seems pointless even though ARM runs largely on litlle endian without being another x86.

But, when you say "no more big endian Power cpus", does that mean the end of the Power line as we know it? Or Power will run exclusively in little endian and native big endian mode will be dropped? Or as I would call it, ppc64intel mode, the extended version of ppc64el, since it looks like a sell out due to the demands of industry.

Last edited by Hypex on 18-Jun-2018 at 06:36 AM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 18-Jun-2018 6:27:49
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3403
From: Unknown

@JimIgou

Quote:
Its the hobbyist mentality prevalent in the community.


I agree!

I'm sick of hearing that ours is a hobby platform or a niche market. In part this is true, but it is the attitude (in my opinion) of resignation and lack of a vision and a clear program that is pushing me to get further and further away from the platform.

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Wizzard_o 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 18-Jun-2018 6:37:32
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Sep-2004
Posts: 701
From: UK, Northern Hemisphere, Earth, Solar System, Alpha Quadrant, The Milky-Way, Universe. 1.1.1.3.44.HP

It's hard to promote a brand when the owner has no interest in it themselves (unless you want to use it, then its sue sue sue!)

Wizz.

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JimIgou 
Re: AOS4 is a private property of Hyperion. If you can't stand it - leave it.
Posted on 18-Jun-2018 14:11:42
#99 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@Wizzard_o

Quote:
It's hard to promote a brand when the owner has no interest in it themselves....


These days, its hard to figure out who actually owns the "brand" or the IP or the "rights/license".
And everyone is suing except for those that can't afford further counselors.

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Signal 
Re: Talos II Lite (Power 9 mobo) $1400, AmigaOS MUST be ported to this!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2018 14:57:20
#100 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 657
From: USA

I really don't know what label to pin on myself when it comes to computers. Enthusiast?, hobbyist?, software geek?, hardware nerd?, ?.

I don't use home computers for work really. Unless it's to look something up for knowledge to fix something, and I have an x86 to do that, but I don't consider the x86 a device to play around with. It's more of an appliance used to discover what is necessary for my ....... (see paragraph one).

If AOS were to go x86 it had better work on the one sitting under my table, and the next one I put together when this one goes belly up. And no, I would not consider it an Amiga and spend time doing what I do as a AmigaNut.

At this point my X1000 sits in my computer closet due to lack of hardware support. After waiting 5 1/2 years for a full serial port (card) and 6 1/2 to 7 years for a proper xorro slot proto board I have moved along.

I will have a P9 computer and I will be involved in projects and discussions and time and money will be spent without considering the price/performance ratio and if Hyperion or the MOS guys want to jump on board I would be thrilled even if it means paying more for their product.

Enough.


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