@Barana

Are you always this gullible?

I have two Vampire cards myself, I know perfectly well how fast they are and how well they compare against 50MHz 68060 - unless running certain well chosen bench-marks is something that makes you wet your panties, the "wow factor" is rather limited.

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@kolla

if you really own vampires you are certainly aware that the core is much more than 68080 replacing lots of expensive components. There were some people who were disappointed because they wanted a cheap turbo card integrating in their big box amigas or only making A500/A600 faster and add memory and not a solution replacing more or less all amiga parts. So even if the hype around it is overdone most people are happy with the package. And it was always stated (even I have read that), that software most benefits if it is adapted to the new options, existing software obviously is not. But I assume that you are skilled and intelligent so you certainly know that, even though always emphasize other topics

Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Sep-2018 at 09:52 AM.

Quote:

if you really own vampires you are certainly aware that the core is much more than 68080 replacing lots of expensive components.

Beastie Boys has an album called "Ill Communication".

When you say "the core", what are you talking about?

The topic here is _clearly_ the CPU core, the AC68080, not SAGA or whatever "glue" that is around it.

EDIT: Btw - why don't you put an effort into making sure that AROS is optimised for 68080?

Last edited by kolla on 17-Sep-2018 at 12:46 PM.

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@kolla

I do not talk down other projects in opposite to others, do I?

The "core" is what people download and put in the FPGA, nobody can download "apollo" as a separate component, can anybody?

But you know that already for sure

And when you program f.e. games you use the infrastructure the system offers, not just the processor

Last edited by OlafS25 on 17-Sep-2018 at 01:04 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

I do not talk down other projects in opposite to others, do I?

No, unlike certain team apollo members, you don't do that.

Quote:

The "core" is what people download and put in the FPGA, nobody can download "apollo" as a separate component, can anybody?

If you license it, you can. But AFAIK, such licensing has never happened, there simply is very little interest among other hardware vendors in using the 68080 CPU core, and the Apollo Team is stuck with hardware they make themselves.

SAGA was said to become open source, what are the odds that this will really happen?

Quote:

And when you program f.e. games you use the infrastructure the system offers, not just the processor

Exactly, which is also why these benchmarks are of little value, most of the times, the bottle-necks are elsewhere.

Guess I must ask you again - why don't you put any effort in making sure AROS is 68080 optimised? Maybe because there is extremely low interest in hand-optimising assembler for AC68080? I am just guessing.

Last edited by kolla on 17-Sep-2018 at 02:10 PM.

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@kolla

I am not a low-level asm developer so I could not do that

Besides I do not own vampires (in opposite to you) because I do not need "real hardware" to be happy

The only reason why I post at all here is that you constantly talk down gunnar and his project. If your problem is that you have spend money for the vampires I assume you could easily sell them again at the moment. If Gunnars project is not satisfying you then do not use it.

Problem solved

@kolla

Quote:

Guess I must ask you again - why don't you put any effort in making sure AROS is 68080 optimised? Maybe because there is extremely low interest in hand-optimising assembler for AC68080? I am just guessing.

because there is not enough interest in aros unfortunately especially on m68k. its usually hard to find anyone that helps with that platform and particularly with asm.

@OlafS25

Any new Amiga project should be praised not put down. Its a miracle we have any developers left at all after 30 years. Well done to all that bring new hardware/software to the Amiga community

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@g01df1sh

Quote:

g01df1sh wrote: @OlafS25 Any new Amiga project should be praised not put down. Its a miracle we have any developers left at all after 30 years. Well done to all that bring new hardware/software to the Amiga community

Which is what everyone does already!!! If one want a reasonable priced accelerator and the features right now are good enough just buy a Vampire with the Apollo core.

But don't believe the exaggerations, cherry picked benchmarks or promises of future performance or features - because anyone that have followed the whole thing knows the PR factor is on overdrive and that level-headed people aren't welcome at least on their forum.

@megol

I agree with you for the most part.

Regarding "levelheaded", maybe - but certain people have a tendency to add constructive critisism with a poke in the eye.

Your and many others knowledge are much deeper than mine on all things Amiga. And my impression this is very welcome. But SOME have the tendency to add the poke at many of their post, and that just increases the tension to the point where even constructive critisism is taken as a poke.

But I feel this is the kind of behavioural discussions we have had for years, regarding other products, OSs etc

Why make 080 for AROS 68k when you can run some emulator where speed is way past any Vampire no matter what 68k cpu. AROS is quite compatible but does not have the assembler code as the original OS have. For a normal PC under emulation it does not matter. For Vampire it does.

Vampire is most about being compatible and run stuff out of the box no matter what Amiga model.

Like others point out it is just a dream if people think this could be some Amiga NG system.

Work on 080 is kind of pointless I think.

Last edited by nikosidis on 17-Sep-2018 at 04:14 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 17-Sep-2018 at 04:12 PM.

@nikosidis

Ive seen this talked about on IRC.

What you say is what the team plans to provide; a 68k compatible system (work in progress!), with new features that allows active developers to enhance performance vs legacy design.

Then there is the OS. AOS 3.x is a mess with regards to development; who owns what, and who can develop it (legally).

AROS has been looked at as an alternative, but requires active developers too, that support Apollo.
Its not the goals per see of the team, but a viable open source alternative, that negates the need to worry about lawyers.

If all you want from the Vampire/Apollo is an accelerated legacy expirience, then thats fine. AOS (or whatever) is all you need.

68060 50 MHz integer performance, non standard FPU, no MMU, no 3D. Crap !!!

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: 68060 50 MHz integer performance, non standard FPU, no MMU, no 3D. Crap !!!

Come on, it's 68060/80 integer performance and RTG (and maybe AGA), best accelerator for A500/A600 ever.

@OneTimer1

shall I comment the performance of PPC based browsers without JIT versus standard hardware that is now years old?

It is boring always to see OneTimer, Kolla and ppcamiga always saying the same nonsense

Why are people outside not jumping on your great PPC hardware? Where are the millions of customers? All have hidden under the table?



Vampire is a toy, a nice hobby platform for former amigans who are willing to spend the money for it and some nerds. Nobody claims different

@ppcamiga1

So much fail in one sentence.

I just don't get the PPC vs non-PPC bashing. Many users have ownership in both platforms and enjoy them for what they are. New Vampires? Cool. New A1222? Cool. Whatever floats yer boats matey.

Last edited by gregthecanuck on 17-Sep-2018 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by gregthecanuck on 17-Sep-2018 at 07:44 PM.

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote: @nikosidis Ive seen this talked about on IRC. What you say is what the team plans to provide; a 68k compatible system (work in progress!), with new features that allows active developers to enhance performance vs legacy design. Then there is the OS. AOS 3.x is a mess with regards to development; who owns what, and who can develop it (legally). AROS has been looked at as an alternative, but requires active developers too, that support Apollo. Its not the goals per see of the team, but a viable open source alternative, that negates the need to worry about lawyers. If all you want from the Vampire/Apollo is an accelerated legacy expirience, then thats fine. AOS (or whatever) is all you need.

There are several 68K assembly coders on the Apollo forum: they can help AROS become more 68K, and specifically more 68080, friendly/optimized.

Instead of wasting time posting blah blah blah messages and doing useless contests.

Last edited by cdimauro on 17-Sep-2018 at 09:17 PM.

@Overfllow Kolla knows all about this, as it is just this sort of behaviour that got him first labelled as a troll on the Apollo forums, got him three warnings (and his avatar changed to that of a troll under a bridge) and finally kicked of the forums all together. You are perceptive, he did start out poking in the eye, then in the end challenging Gunnar on the teams decisions.(back seat driving)
Now he has come here with the goal of hating the Apollo team and trying to make them look bad.
It is indeed a behavioural issue.
It may be a mental issue, IDK.
But the one thing Kolla will be clear,We won't tolerate unjust trolling Gunnar and the Apollo team on opinion and thinly veiled half arsed technical reasoning that won't hold up to scrutiny and serves, in fact to simply troll and defame the not yet finished good work of a talented team who has decided to benefit ours and other retro communities.
If you do persist, we will start rolling out the troll reports.

If you are not happy trolling here, might I suggest a.org. ... I. Think they'll eat you alive, there.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

There are several 68K assembly coders on the Apollo forum: they can help AROS become more 68K, and specifically more 68080, friendly/optimized

Thankyou, cdmauro, without you pointing out reality, I would have believed opposite.
It is good news!

Last edited by Barana on 18-Sep-2018 at 12:47 AM.

_________________
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@Barana: now YOU are acting like a troll.

What I've said it's just a matter of fact, which anyone (with a decent technical background) can easily verify reading the Apollo forum.
Last useless contest: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=17053&z=qOXFbm

Imagine what such coders can do to help AROS/68K (and 68080) with their skills, in order to have a decent Amiga-like o.s. for their machine, since currently customers are stuck with the old 3.1 brutally patched to enable some Vampire features.

The funny thing is that Gunnar in the past blamed Thomas (one of the Amiga o.s. developers) to prefer spending time on forums (I think he was referring to an EAB user which has "thomas" as nickname) instead of helping the Vampire improving AROS (or Amiga o.s. Don't remember exactly now. Anyway, it's a detail in this context).
But if you look at the Apollo forum, Gunnar has written 3504 posts (thomas 5681 on EAB), and he certainly is a very skilled 68K coder. Coherency...

BTW, what happened to kolla on the Apollo forum is simply shameful, insulting and censoring him like in the "good old days" (sich!).
I have no problem understanding that you don't like critics and expressing opinions which aren't approved by your holy savior. He also tried to do the same with me on AROS-Exec, invoking censorship only because he's "The One", but his attempt failed because that wasn't his forum and I haven't said anything other than pure, real facts which anyone can check.

The problem is that you, as many other fanatics, are not able to accept critics to your beloved project. And this is nothing strictly related to the Vampire/Apollo project: it's a very common thing which happens on all forums which talk about precise arguments. You always find blind fanatics which see any opinion which diverges from the "trusted holy way" as an insult to their faith. Your last messages clearly show it.
But you know what? If you don't like what other people says, then censorship is not the way: if you have something CONCRETE to rebut their statement, then do it. Otherwise I suggest you to ignore them (some forums have a nice feature: the ignore list).
Unfortunately for you, the world is not all made of blind, always smiling, obedient minions which prays their boss one day yes, and the other too.
Reality is quite different, and it's something which adult people should have understood from very long time...