@Nonefornow

Quote:

Nonefornow wrote: @thread Objectively speaking installing AROS (Icaros) involves the same level of difficulty as installing Windows or Linux.

Is it difficult to hit install button?
icaros installs very same way as os4 or morphos.

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http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@thread

Sorry guys but everytime I read that AmigaOS4 on x86 hw will be forgotten like AROS etc I can only sadly smile...

DO you all really think AmigaOS4 uers ar so stupid that they prefer to spend $$$$$ for SLOW hardware instead of $ on FAST hardware?

DO you all really think that AmigaOS4 users are so stupid that if AmigaOS4 will run better and FASTER on an x86 hardware they instead pref to run in on worst ppc hardware?

I think NO! AmigaOS4 users uses AmigaOS4 because they like it for the way AmigaOS4 was made and for the feeling they get from using it no matter on what hardware it will run(68k era was ENDED 2 decades ago...)

Me use(not so often last monthys unfortunately) AmigaOS4 because AROS an MOS dont give me same feeling and sensations like AmigaOS4, tastes was testes...

So If AmigaOS4 will run on x86 hardware(also emulated why not), better and in a cheaper way than now on ppc why not?

I think that was better to have an AOS4 package that will costs much but developed on standard hw than like now selled at cheaper prices but on a so expensive hardware...
I thin kwas better to ask some 40/50k euros(ok wasnt so much) to start developing AOS4 on x86 than sell 100 x5000 mobos at 2000 (200k euros in total) for few ppls...

Or I'm so wrong?

_________________
Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@Tuxedo

unfortunatelly the os4 users are apparently about as few and far apart as morphos and aros users in comparison, so it doesnt make as much of difference, what either of them are like, in the end.

Last edited by wawa on 01-Aug-2018 at 11:35 PM.

@edponpon

Here's my 2 cents worth.
Before I start I have to say that I agree with many of the points @ne_one put forward.

I think, and it is something I'm planning, that for the next phase Amiga (as a computing paradigm) should be just an OS. Though actually it would need to be more than just an OS and have a new native language, intuitive IDE, and a handful of killer apps.

Elements of this strategy have been executed before. The data for the past ~20 years across desktop, portable, and pocket computing shows that a very small percentage of the purchasing decision is based on hardware. People also rarely derive enjoyment from using an OS, and the reasons for purchasing are highly influenced by applications. With price running a close second.

Developers go where the users are, but they also go where the tools are. If you show the developers that with the new Amiga tools the new killer apps were built in a single day, then their curiosity would be piqued. The killer feature of the IDE would need to be the ability to compile for another OS. What is needed is to have developers spend more time in the Amiga IDE vs. another.

Because the IDE would always compile an Amiga version of the application, even if the developers were mostly interested in the other OS, a library of applications would grow in the new Amiga app store. Providing users with an app ecosystem that would justify the running of the new Amiga OS vs. whatever they're running now.

Then when you have a sustainable user base and developer community, it would be possible to start producing a line of portable and perhaps desktop hardware that the users would prefer to use, and would be more aligned to the new Amiga OS than a generic PC.

These are broad strokes and there are many minor steps within and in-between. Whilst there are some new ideas, most of my plan is not "rocket science". History is replete with lessons, both those to adopt and those to avoid.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

It is impossible without major funding and many years of development. AmigaOS is very basic, no full MP, no SMP, no security whatsover, basic API, no multiusers support and the list goes on.

@Tuxedo

Probably yes, but (un)fortunately we'll never have to test this theory. Imagine OS4, minus the 68k binary compatibility (as in mixing it with native code), minus most of the native software, running on commodity hardware. That would put it in direct competition with the rest of the desktop OS', like it or not. People would suddenly be upset that it doesn't run on their specific x64 machine (see the comments about AROS and the "magic hardware combination").
You might like Workbench, but the magic will wear off quickly if you have no software to speak of. There's only so much feeling to get out of dragging icons and opening drawers.

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This is just like television, only you can see much further.

Well... it could still be both, but Amiga needs to move away from PPC, and into another platform, where people can get a maschine with some power, with out it costing to much.

They could do the whole apple thing. delivere high quality laptops based on something, with a modern amiga os it..

for this to work, amiga os needs to be restarted from cratch.. again i would say take dragonfly bsd, and fork it, and add some amiga feel to it. It ready got some amigaish features, so add a few more, screens, datatypes, arexx and so on.

Add some sandbox functions for running older amiga software, and deliver something new.

If they had done that 10 years ago, we would be a whole diffrent place. we would had a modern amiga os, that can run moderns apps, with good enought performance...

i dont get it why they used to much energy to patch up os4.. its a fucking mess of a os now...

Last edited by StarF on 02-Aug-2018 at 12:18 PM.

@BSzili

Quote:

You might like Workbench, but the magic will wear off quickly if you have no software to speak of. There's only so much feeling to get out of dragging icons and opening drawers.

True which is why A-EON have focussed on buying up old Amiga software with a view to upgrading them. It has been a struggle for them to carry out that work. I feel that a port to x86-64 is something the current Amiga community cannot support. If that's your wish there's AROS or emulation or both melded together in the cas of Icaros. You are really spoilt for choice but the NG Amiga systems and AmigaOS will likely now live or die in line with the PowerPC chips availability and Trevor's desire to keep funding the venture. Other than that there would be only AROS or emulation and MorphOS on old Macs. We're very lucky to have Trevor and usable PowerPC chips for another 10 years at least. Unless the Tabor is run away success that will be the remaining lifespan of NG Amiga anyway. Job done.

Summary either the market for AmigaOS grows on PowerPC or AmigaOS doesn't stay viable. If it's not viable then there's no change of ISA.

Last edited by BigD on 02-Aug-2018 at 12:22 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

A-Eon did nothing than buying old software sources. Most old 68k software is written on amiga compilers and uses assembler for time critical parts, often it also is tightly connected with the amiga chipsets. To get something like that running natively on AmigaOS PPC you have to do a lot of changes to get it compiling correctly on modern compilers, than you have also to remove all amiga hardware specific parts and replace all asm code. The GUI on OS4 is Reaction so if your main interest is OS4 then GUI has to be rewritten. Additionally you need experienced developers to do that who know both old amiga hardware, 3.X including the old compilers and the new PPC platform which is not fully compatible. There are not many programmers qualifying for that. You have to invest lots of money and then nothing than old software running natively on PPC. And even if you find someone who has time to do it you have to finance it with only few potential buyers left making it likely to loose money. Example is Personal Paint, running natively on PPC but not many improvements (compared to the 68k versions). To really attract new users you need modern software but that would need lots of work or (in other words) money. And then no guarantee selling anything at all.

Useable PPC chips in Tabor is relative. The problem is todays software is not designed for embedded hardware so if f.e. Libre Office would be ported I fear it would not be fun using it on Tabor. Also I do not expect Tabor (if ever released) to attract new users, I assume most Tabor buyers would just replace older hardware like one of the SAMs.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 02-Aug-2018 at 01:33 PM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

Also I do not expect Tabor (if ever released) to attract new users, I assume most Tabor buyers would just replace older hardware like one of the SAMs.

Between Vampire and Tabor I expect there to be new users. Amiga on the Lake has already reported there are a lot of new X5000 buyers who are new to the platform. And if there are no no users why worry? There will only be classic emulation in a decade if that is true. I would't bet against A-EON however. Amiga Inc staggered on with no products with a single investor. A-EON have products and at least a couple of investors and a lot of vested interests.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

a lot of is relative

And regarding A-eon I only need to mentioning Personal Paint (the only old software ported to PPC). Trevor D. of course has a lot of money in fire with Tabor not ready and I assume X5000 also is in red. The AmigaOS fans were lucky to find someone like Trevor with enough money and interest in the platform. But to really make it successful you would need both a realistic concept where the platform should develop to and someone willing to risk lots of money with that. Even Trevor will not do that. So the situation will propably stay like now...

@OlafS25

Since A-EON aren't able to push AmigaOS to fulfil a niche market need (other than pleasing retro users) we can but hope a new opportunity opens up like RISCOS on the Raspberry Pi. Maybe PPC will get a resurrgence in some weird form and AmigaOS would fulfil some niche need. Other than that the situation is better than it deserves to be 24 years after C='s demise. This is all a bonus.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@thread @dponpon @agami

I still do not quite understand what would the benefits be of developing yet another Amiga-like OS.

For PPC there' s OS4, for X86 (x64) there's AROS, and for MACS there's Morphos. + various implementations / variants of those 3.

Shouldn't the development / developers concentrate in improving or expanding those OS, rather that trying to make a new one?

@Nonefornow

Totally agree, let's concentrate on browser development e.g. for all these platforms.

And 1 compiler to output for those 3 or better 4 (including the Vampire platform)….

@Nonefornow

Quote:

For PPC there' s OS4, for X86 (x64) there's AROS, and for MACS there's Morphos. + various implementations / variants of those 3. Shouldn't the development / developers concentrate in improving or expanding those OS, rather that trying to make a new one?

None of these have memory protection, which means that they're not safe to use on a system connected to a network. Memory protection is not something that can be easily added without breaking compatibility with existing software, which is why there is continual (and perhaps perpetual ) discussion of a more modern replacement for AmigaOS.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@BSzili

Well...
Probably on my Pegasos2 I use all but 68k software..
And "when" we can have a FAST computer to run AmigaOS4 also much probably an integrated UAE can run needed(if needed) 68k sofware really better than now on a dedicated window or screeen...

However for the "compatibility" reason also much probably was better to make a good PPC emulator and run AmigaOS4 on it...something like Amithlon I mean, so all was "native" excluded cpu...

I dont think that will be so much difficult if we look at how much money was spent on Xx000 mobos...

ATM we really dont need a so fast computer, only a normally fast computer...

Last edited by Tuxedo on 02-Aug-2018 at 11:32 PM.
Last edited by Tuxedo on 02-Aug-2018 at 11:31 PM.

_________________
Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@kamelit0

Quote:

It is impossible without major funding and many years of development. AmigaOS is very basic, no full MP, no SMP, no security whatsover, basic API, no multiusers support and the list goes on.

I agree. But the question in the topic is "Would it be better to have Amiga as just an OS?" so my answer is addressing that.

If the question was "What's holding the current Amiga OS from gaining broader acceptance?" then your points would cover that.

On the topic of funds: The 5-year plan I have requires upward of $50M before the new platform is capable of generating revenue.

@Nonefornow

Quote:

I still do not quite understand what would the benefits be of developing yet another Amiga-like OS.

Because I don't agree with the strategy and execution of these. The goal is not to have "yet another" Amiga-like OS. The goal is to have "the" Amiga-like OS.
I would rather spend $50M on my vision, than put $50k in any of the ones you listed.

On a side note: I did offer to invest in the Apollo Team to accelerate the delivery of Vampire FPGA boards, and they turned it down.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

Quote:

On a side note: I did offer to invest in the Apollo Team to accelerate the delivery of Vampire FPGA boards, and they turned it down.

Yeah, money wold not speed it up anyways, that's not how development works.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

Quote:

agami wrote: Quote: It is impossible without major funding and many years of development. AmigaOS is very basic, no full MP, no SMP, no security whatsover, basic API, no multiusers support and the list goes on. I agree. But the question in the topic is "Would it be better to have Amiga as just an OS?" so my answer is addressing that. If the question was "What's holding the current Amiga OS from gaining broader acceptance?" then your points would cover that. On the topic of funds: The 5-year plan I have requires upward of $50M before the new platform is capable of generating revenue.

I doubt $50M is enough to buy all the rights of AmigaOS without legal issues. :P

Realistically, $50M is a lot of debt without generating cash flow. Too much risk. A modern AmigaOS on another architecture would *not* have enough software and most existing Amiga software would likely be broken short of a sandbox and emulator. Part of the problem with switching architectures is that most are little endian today (AArch64 is "bi-endian" but instructions are always LE and BE support practically doesn't exist). LE requires all new Amiga structures or endian swapping on the fly which is usually less efficient. Adding 64 bit support would also require new structures and functions but it should be possible to maintain some 32 bit compatibility. The best compatibility would come from making a custom 64 bit 68k CPU core. Although the advantages of commodity hardware are lost, it is possible to customize and optimize for specific and standardized hardware (consoles often do more with less for the same reason). Economies of scale and mass production are very important so the loss of commodity hardware would appear to be a problem but it is possible to use old die sizes and partner with embedded partners to mass produce CPUs and later SoCs for a fraction of what they could be bought from NXP for example. Development costs would likely be several million dollars but the CPU design can now be used for many years due to the end of Moore's law. Mass production of low cost Amigas is the key to increasing Amiga development and generating cash flow for AmigaOS improvements. Keeping 68k compatibility means you have some existing software, especially 68k games. There have been many successful retro gaming and hobby computers as of late but we could provide more. Think of a 68k Amiga Raspberry Pi with NeoGeo, Sega Genesis, x68000, Atari ST, 68k Mac, etc. compatibility. There is substantial risk but at least it is a good gamble. The AmigaOS ownership and legal situation is the big road block and would likely cost more to resolve than the hardware for such a project. :(

Quote:

Quote: I still do not quite understand what would the benefits be of developing yet another Amiga-like OS. Because I don't agree with the strategy and execution of these. The goal is not to have "yet another" Amiga-like OS. The goal is to have "the" Amiga-like OS. I would rather spend $50M on my vision, than put $50k in any of the ones you listed.

The most prolific AmigaOS is the most likely to become "the" AmigaOS. Current AmigaOS attempts are to get bigger and become more like and compete with other OSs but I would rather go smaller and leverage the advantages and philosophies of the Amiga. The Amiga would be more competitive on features if it went smaller and was used for specific embedded applications where working well with a tiny footprint is often the biggest priority. How often did Video Toaster users complain about the lack of AmigaOS features?

Quote:

On a side note: I did offer to invest in the Apollo Team to accelerate the delivery of Vampire FPGA boards, and they turned it down.

Gunnar lacks the leadership and vision to make his core successful. He is lacking ethically and exhibits some mental instability for a business partner. I believe he could be helpful to a fabless semiconductor company if you could keep him working by himself in the basement. It would be best to bring in a professional CPU designer to head such a project. I have some ideas and connections for CPU design and embedded strategies if you are interested but keep in mind that these people need certainty and the Amiga is nothing but loose ends.

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: A modern AmigaOS on another architecture would *not* have enough software and most existing Amiga software would likely be broken short of a sandbox and emulator. Part of the problem with switching architectures is that most are little endian today (AArch64 is "bi-endian" but instructions are always LE and BE support practically doesn't exist). LE requires all new Amiga structures or endian swapping on the fly which is usually less efficient.

A modern o.s. is endianess-agnostic. The problem with the Amiga o.s. is not the endianess, but if you want to keep running the same (68K binary) applications as "first class citizens" inside the new platform (running on another architecture).
Quote:

Adding 64 bit support would also require new structures and functions but it should be possible to maintain some 32 bit compatibility.

Yes, APIs compatibility can be achieved, but 64 and 32 bit applications cannot directly exchange resources (I mean: passing pointers, like what the Amiga o.s. did).
Quote:

The best compatibility would come from making a custom 64 bit 68k CPU core.

But with 64 and 32 bit applications running isolated, right? I mean: you cannot directly share resources (see above).
Quote:

The most prolific AmigaOS is the most likely to become "the" AmigaOS. Current AmigaOS attempts are to get bigger and become more like and compete with other OSs but I would rather go smaller and leverage the advantages and philosophies of the Amiga. The Amiga would be more competitive on features if it went smaller and was used for specific embedded applications where working well with a tiny footprint is often the biggest priority. How often did Video Toaster users complain about the lack of AmigaOS features?

The problem is that the Amiga o.s., as is, is too fragile. The creators traded robustness for performance/responsiveness, and customers are still paying the bill...