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      /  Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
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bennymee 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 16:38:52
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 548
From: Netherlands

@Lou

What benefit would be a PCIe card or do you think the cpu is fast enough to feed the PCIe card?



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OneTimer1 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 18:01:39
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 500
From: Unknown

@Overflow

Your test pictures are proofing a terrible thing, the video display is distorted.

Maybe you should not scale a 4:3 picture up to 16:9

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 18:36:20
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11151
From: Norway

@bennymee

It's the GPU displays the graphics, the GPU is also doing a lot of moving, blending, and drawing 3d geometry, graphic is also stored in graphic cards memory. the CPU does not need to feed it for every single frame, only when your changing something you need update it. Also on the PC the GPU fetch memory from system memory, without CPU having to do it.

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Lou 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 22:06:27
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@bennymee

Depending on the card...
...you have 1400 to 3000+ SIMD units compared to the Vampire's 1
4 to 16 GB of RAM that can store all your audio and video...
OpenCL computing...

Basically nothing.

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bennymee 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 1-Oct-2019 23:09:56
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 548
From: Netherlands

@Lou

Yes, I know. Opencl, who is gonna do the Amiga conversion? AmigaNG is capable, just backport it ;)

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Lou 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 2:14:52
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@bennymee

No point in porting something until there is a reason to port it.
IIRC OpenGL is being ported so baby steps. However - the baby must exist in order to take those steps.

Porting OpenGLES/CL etc...to current Amiga chipsets is like adding a 10 speed transmission to a 2 horsepower lawnmower motor.

2 hp might be extremely generous...

Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 02:16 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 02:15 AM.

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amigang 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 4:42:28
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1461
From: Cheshire, England


Dam, was hoping for it to be cheaper, but still tempted. I would love to get this put it inside one of the new A1200 cases, and keyboard and have a great all in one Amiga solution. V4 500, case 150, keys 150 would make it 800 project, witch is just a bit much.

Might have to go the emulation root, raspberry pi it....but Im going to wait a bit longer To see if a1200.net announces anything on its keyboard solution they have planned.

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kolla 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 6:09:18
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@amigang

When you have a whole A1200 case to fill, why a raspberry pi and not a much more capable amd64 based board?

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amigang 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 7:35:33
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1461
From: Cheshire, England

@kolla

Price is a big one, Pi are only 25, next support, there a whole little community around the Pi for cool little projects/programs and retro Pi get some pretty good easy to set up build made and optimised for the Pi.

I have consider buying a old laptop for this project too, one with maybe dead screen but still works and has hdmi out so I could get it cheap and be fairly easier to fit inside a1200 case.

its a project Im still in two mind weather to do next year.

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bennymee 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 8:26:51
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 548
From: Netherlands

@Lou

You are completly right.

No point at all, but the question raise from: usb 3 adapter to PCIe on a hypothetical Vampire with usb 3 (no usb 3 driver), a PCIe card (with no 2D/3D drivers), which makes no sense at all with the current Vampire and the current 68080 cpu.

The Vampire is the very best in replacing a classic machine and taking it a few steps further. On the AmigaNG systems OpenCL could make sense, but for these systems there isn't even started anything for that matter.

Last edited by bennymee on 02-Oct-2019 at 08:27 AM.

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Lou 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 13:49:12
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@bennymee

Quote:

bennymee wrote:
@Lou

You are completly right.

No point at all, but the question raise from: usb 3 adapter to PCIe on a hypothetical Vampire with usb 3 (no usb 3 driver), a PCIe card (with no 2D/3D drivers), which makes no sense at all with the current Vampire and the current 68080 cpu.

The Vampire is the very best in replacing a classic machine and taking it a few steps further. On the AmigaNG systems OpenCL could make sense, but for these systems there isn't even started anything for that matter.

I think it's you who is a bit confused. 1 SIMD unit is useless for 3D...well unless you don't mind 20k plain old polygons at 10 fps in 480p and no custom shading. How much more would it have cost to support USB 3.x?

For reference:
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/want-your-raspberry-pi-4-to-run-a-modern-graphics-card-this-engineers-working-on-it/
A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't.

I have personally used such an adapter in one of my PC's to run a 2nd video card to do some dual card Ethereum mining. Whatever is running on the GPU runs at full speed from it's own memory.

AMD drivers are open source ... in fact the Linux drivers are superior to the Windows drivers, FYI.


On second thought let's wait another 10 years for FPGAs to become fast enough to render 100,000 polygons at 30fps...cuz that's a great upgrade path...

Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 16:57:13
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9627
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't.


But is the point of the Vampire to run like a video card? A lot of effort has been put into the SAGA core. Extending AGA that one part better and integrating RTG along with other features. In fact, given the nature of the hardware, the point of it really is to go backwards with playfields, sprites and bitplanes. Not forwards to chunky and 3d acceleration, that's just a bonus. Mind you, by comparison to the real deal, it should have a built in 3d accelerator to match a Radeon or whatever the best is an Amiga can do with Warp3d. But, even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion, that would ruin it, as suddenly you have SAGA separate to RTG and they would need a way to transparently render SAGA into the RTG framebuffer.

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Lou 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 2-Oct-2019 20:50:14
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
A $35 machine that can run a video card is a big deal. Just seems off that a 500-600 piece of hardware can't.


But is the point of the Vampire to run like a video card? A lot of effort has been put into the SAGA core. Extending AGA that one part better and integrating RTG along with other features. In fact, given the nature of the hardware, the point of it really is to go backwards with playfields, sprites and bitplanes. Not forwards to chunky and 3d acceleration, that's just a bonus. Mind you, by comparison to the real deal, it should have a built in 3d accelerator to match a Radeon or whatever the best is an Amiga can do with Warp3d. But, even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion, that would ruin it, as suddenly you have SAGA separate to RTG and they would need a way to transparently render SAGA into the RTG framebuffer.


But the SAGA "core" is not an enhanced chipset or even a chipset at all. It's another thread on the cpu doing functions that the PAULA and the blitter would normally do. Marketing vs reality. SAGA is already RTG+AHI. Why not just let a real gpu chipset do it's job rather than create another mis-guided 68K version of the CELL processor but with only 1 or 2 SPUs?

Letting a 68k machine use a modern video card solves a lot of problems.

Last edited by Lou on 02-Oct-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 10:00:37
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1604
From: Norway

@Lou

Im not a developer, so Im talking out of ignorance.

BUT wont allowing 3rd party graphics cards introduce the driverhell that X1000/5000 has been suffering?
Hans has done a heroic job developing the driver, but I get a feeling that Apollo Team is not even contemplating that option to avoid "omg! I have a $700 3D card, and its not supporting xyz feature!" complaints on the forums.

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OlafS25 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 10:38:43
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5568
From: Unknown

@Overflow

the devs can control how hardware behaves

that has many advantages

of course Vampires will never beat a modern graphic card

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kolla 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 13:59:30
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1315
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Overflow

the devs can control how hardware behaves

that has many advantages


Exactly. And then there was this... let us not forget it.

http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=5768

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megol 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 15:00:23
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 321
From: Unknown

@Lou

You keep repeating this however to me that seem unlikely, why handle something in a slow second thread of a slow softcore when it would be easy and quick to do in hardware? Have anything to support that claim?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 15:29:07
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11151
From: Norway

@Hypex

"Even if it had a PCIe slot for video expansion" who says it has to be for video expansion, there is lots of interesting stuff to plug into PCIe, USB3, sound cards, SATA controllers, PCIe active raiser cards. There is also the mini PCIe standard used on laptops, some solidstate disks can pluged direct into PCIe slot.

I think it be great if as many developers as possible where able to write drivers for new modern PCIe explanation cards. And the only way for this to happen is access to commuters that has that connector.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Oct-2019 at 03:30 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 17:27:02
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3983
From: Rhode Island

@megol

Quote:

megol wrote:
@Lou

You keep repeating this however to me that seem unlikely, why handle something in a slow second thread of a slow softcore when it would be easy and quick to do in hardware? Have anything to support that claim?

Repeating what?

That SAGA is just the 2nd cpu thread performing blit and audio operations?

Perhaps you haven't done enough research into what it is yourself.
They couldn't "enhance" the AGA chipset so as not to break compatibility.

Perhaps you should do your own research rather than question mine?

FYI an 020 with FASTRAM can blit faster than the blitter/Agnus.

In case you aren't sure, "blitter" is just a chip that copies memory from one place to another. If you declare a range of memory for your frame buffer - anything that can access that memory can be used to "animate"/draw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter

So why is the fact that SAGA is just the thread of the cpu that the OS generally doesn't know how to access being used to 'blit' or combine audio 'channels'...?
This is done in the DDR memory and that memory contains the frame buffer for the HDMI output.

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ErikBauer 
Re: Vampire V4 Standalone - Details and Price
Posted on 3-Oct-2019 19:21:00
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1122
From: Italy

Plus, SAGA has enhanced sprites and afaik every screen mode can be "coppered".
Audio has been enhanced too: Pamela hs 8 Stereo channels with 16 bit audio

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