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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 19:46:39
#81 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 931
From: Norway, Oslo

@phoenixkonsole

I have nothing against any Amiga or Amiga like version either. I just always tought AROS had the brightest future as it ran on i386 and on cheap hardware much more powerful than any PPC computer. I was of cause wrong about the last statement. Not that it is a false statement but not much reali took advantage of it.

What we also know is that other camps. could look at AROS source code and what been done there but AROS could not look at others source code but we for sure had a lot of nice software from other camps compiled that would else never happen.

What you say about AROS 68k being kind of sluggish on original Amigas are true and I think is cause gfx-drivers and parts of original AmigaOS done in assember code.
On more powerfull hardware like 060 and RTG I don't think AROS feel sluggish if you compare with original.

I look at the situation like this.

Amiga 68k don't care about mem. protection or other modern features. Amiga 68k is what original games and scene productions are made for. People doing games and scene productions are mostly not that interested in anything NG. First of all they like to bang the hardware. The limitations is what makes the sport for coders, gfx-artists and musicians. What can you do with the limitations of Amiga 500.
This is where Amiga is alive and will be for a long time. Most run Amiga under emulation and using some modern PC hardware the development tools are amazing. You can do things today that no one tought where possible on hardware like A500. I don't know how long the original Amiga hardware will live but with FPGA solutions and emulators there are future solutions.
AROS 68k is also a future solution that always can be developed as open source platform.

Last edited by nikosidis on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:06 PM.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:01:40
#82 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1756
From: Unknown

@nikosidis
~true

And yes a Vampire should be a perfect match.. I played with it on Gamescom.. a pitty i couldn't attent on saturday so i forgot to take one with me ; )

Still it isn't there.. but well its tough to know if you run alpha software on beta hardware what is causing the next crash : )

Whatever ... AmigaOS 3.x feels more stable "still".. but AROS 68K isn't bad and I think with more users on vampires and "important" : Feedback it can become better..

Whatver.. I am sorry if someone in the AROS 68K camp had the feeling I would attack it.. or want to destroy it.. completely wrong..

Also AROS x64 .. never.. I just expressed my "user point of view which everyone can just ignore" : )

PS:
I believe after so many years everyone should be aware that convincing someone from his point of view in Amigaland is impossible.. don't try it.. accept or ignore it.. or say "i see it different because..." and than ignore it ... happy happy joy .. we are just here to enjoy news .. and as long someone creates news the spinning wheel goes on.

But to become philosophic regarding bright future:
We amigans are way too biased... we have an kind of emotional relationship normal people are lacking..
I predict: Even if I put 1 Million on the table nobody here could create a "success" with the Amiga as a computer. And also people look for a smartphone app today to solve a problem.. Its completely different how people interact with software. And to be honest.. going modern and just adding an Amiga batch wouldn't be interesting for anyone as well. -> we are hobbyist, dinosaurs so we should reduce it to having fun with it. It's not bashing time.. like dinosaurs going distinct but still fighting each other. Nonsense. .. Multiboot anyone ?

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:17 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:12 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:04 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:03 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:02 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:07:01
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2161
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@paolone

for me X86 or even X64 always was without chance...

the problem were and are the drivers

Aros with its very limited resources should have concentrated on static hardware, so in my view both Raspberry and Vampire (68k) are best chances

MorphOS team are in a better situation there... there is a team behind it that defines goals and reach those. On Aros progress mostly depends on the motivation and goals of one or two developers. That is not enough to progress.

But I am not that pessimistic at the moment... thanks to 68k Aros might get more interest now than in all the years before.


I think your post nicely puts together the strengthe and weaknessness of both closed source and open source. Both have in common that thes are doomed if too little.
But I also share your slight optimism. I think we (the entire (and ever arguing) Amiga world) have some nice prospects: AROS 68k/FPGA, MorphOS x64, even OS4 may get affordable hardware. We had worse times already.
Still more users and developers would help as well as more cooperation.

_________________
My programs: www.via-altera.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:13:36
#84 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 931
From: Norway, Oslo

@phoenixkonsole

I been thinking it could be possible to mix AROS 68k with original AmigaOS 3.1 and replace the parts of the OS that are not working correct or as original Amiga OS.. There could be some installer to do this if you have the legal OS 3.1 licence, disks?
I think this would be good until those parts can be replaced with AROS versions.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:15:55
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1756
From: Unknown

@nikosidis
It would prove the compatibility as well. Interesting experiment at least.. how much of AmigaOS 3.x system software work on AROS 68K as "replacement" ?

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:20:23
#86 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 931
From: Norway, Oslo

@Zylesea @Olaf

+ 1

I agree 100% with you.



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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 20:23:08
#87 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 931
From: Norway, Oslo

@phoenixkonsole

Olaf can answer this much better than me. From what I have tried it is quite much.
Regarding games I think almost all games can run with AROS rom and system files. No matter if ECS or AGA.

Last edited by nikosidis on 14-Oct-2019 at 08:23 PM.

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vision 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 14-Oct-2019 21:38:18
#88 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2005
Posts: 480
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

"hopefully noone from outside reads this thread"

Don't worry, the german police will. His mouth extend checks that his pockets won't be able to pay.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 0:12:16
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1855
From: Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
hopefully none from outside reads this thread"


Don't worry about that.
The type of stupidity on display here has already done the damage it'll do.

Are fans/users aware that their behavior has killed the platforms, not technical merit/problems?

There's next to no pleasant Amiga places to hang out anymore and the need to be part of the "Winning" camp makes people morons who spew garbage that isnt even true....it's all about scoring "points" these days. Thats why remains of the Amiga.


Couple that with the fact there's no reason for anyone to jump on board and the crazy amounts of developers who just got sick of the community, and the scene has got what it worked towards for decades and well deserves.

Extinction.

When people promote their hobby as nothing more than something to mourn and moan about, which is what places like Amigaworld encourage then this is the end result.

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kolla 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 2:06:12
#90 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1317
From: Trondheim, Norway

@nikosidis

Quote:

I been thinking it could be possible to mix AROS 68k with original AmigaOS 3.1 and replace the parts of the OS that are not working correct or as original Amiga OS..


You figured this out now?

You can even toss in bits and pieces from the original CBM C code from the leaked OS 3.1 source archive into the AROS build tree and with just a few modifications have them built as well.

About open sourcing OS 3.1 - it is quite possible to open source each individual binary on its own, or in meaningful bundles. Apple does this. Microsoft does this. Google does this... heck even MorphOS does this.

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kolla 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 2:11:47
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1317
From: Trondheim, Norway

@fishy_fis

Quote:
developers who just got sick of the community


These so called developers are way better at shunning off each other, than "the community" (if by that you mean "users") ever will be.

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terminills 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 6:26:04
#92 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1376
From: Unknown

@ASiegel

Quote:

ASiegel wrote:
Just a quick note to confirm that ARES Computer (phoenixkonsole) did in fact contribute almost 2,000 USD to AROS-related bounty projects at Power2People and encouraged users of their AROS distributions to make donations as well.

There is simply no other AROS or Amiga related company that contributed nearly as much.

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:
First of all I put like 50k in for, of money out of my pocket money into AROS.. if it was about drivers or paying devs in debts or by donating hardware..


Does this include your own projects (games, Hollywood-based apps)? This seems like a lot of money but it is not obvious to me what you got in return.



Ahem lol 😂

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nikosidis 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 8:52:43
#93 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 931
From: Norway, Oslo

@kolla

The developers that do quality games for classic is not sick of that community at all. The communication with the users I seen are all possitive.

Last edited by nikosidis on 15-Oct-2019 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 15-Oct-2019 at 08:54 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 10:27:23
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1317
From: Trondheim, Norway

@nikosidis

Quote:

The developers that do quality games for classic is not sick of that community at all. The communication with the users I seen are all possitive.


Well, game developers for classic has a privilege - they can (if they wish) throw out and ignore the entire operating system.

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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 11:01:00
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5607
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

+1

MorphOS sounds interesting but is propably years away

AmigaOS has some activity but not much

The only living platform is "classic", the reason why Cloanto and Hyperion are fighting against each other

"Classic" has most new software, biggest existing software base, most compilers

As I wrote the concept of Aros to be a small Linux failed because of the limited number of developers and a unified concept (except implementing 3.1 API). A team like MorphOS team has some advantages here. Aros needs static documented hardware so one or two developers can do it and not need years (and loose interest).

If a new MorphOS running on AMD64 and certain systems will really attract users and developers has to be seen. Current software development (except MorphOS team) is close to zero.

Perhaps this will end the fighting...

Aros goes 68k and ARM, MorphOS AMD64, AmigaOS stays PPC

The users have the choices

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Oct-2019 at 11:36 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 11:14:08
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5607
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

applications that are written using the OS work in many cases (Amigawriter, Finalwriter and so on)

games work partly but thanks to whdload (that works perfect, many games even work with rom replacements) you can almost run any game on it

demos partly work (of course the whdload versions work)

MUI-Software partly works with Zune (you can replace Zune with MUI if using Magellan)

You can also replace icon library without problems (I use PeterKs icon library)

Partly hacks work like StackAttack

I have never tested original 3.1 files because they are copyrighted so I could not distribute them. I guess components like Arexx could easy be added, perhaps even intuition could be replaced, components like dos or graphics that are central and affecting other components not.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Oct-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 11:42:47
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5607
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

A modern new AmigaOS that would attract users from outside would have to be very different because used devices today and behavior of users are different from the 90s. So you would need a complete new desktop that adapts to different devices, you would need new software and you would compete with the big players. I doubt that this is possible. If you stay below that you would only attract old amigans but then again you are only niche. And existing amiga software would needed to be adapted but who does that?

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 12:38:37
#98 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1189
From: Athens/Greece

@OlafS25

Pls define "most new software", cause all I saw on A34 were many new (albeit extremely cool) cards/add-ons, which come under a hefty price, in order to play new... ECS/AGA games (though no one needs any of those cards for these limited specs titles, but that's a different story). There is a staggering absence of software, especially on 68k. Excluding commands/libs/commodities (which are compatible with PPC NG systems after all - and not under the direct benefit of 68k ecosystem, similar to 68k ports claiming Vampire as recommended ports while are MorphOS system friendly already), which is/are the most noticeable software being released / developed? iBrowse 2.5 which can display one or two websites across the internet? Flow Studio is much bigger news item than anything else on 68k last year - and I am not counting new versions of Odyssey or Iris.

Still, indeed, 68k has the most crowd. But it's all due to games. There is no single exhibition I have attended to (locally or abroad) that has 68k systems running some (new) game and hasn't attracted people. Whereas you could see MorphOS, OS4 or even AROS systems showing productivity software (i.e. C4D or LW in blazing fast rendering modes) that people skipped under a glimpse. On recent A34 there should have been setup more than 40 68k systems across the floor and around 99% were playing games. Classic Amiga are not just retro, they are retro-gaming scene in essence. One could just watch the impact of AOS 3.2 preview on Hyperion's booth and understand clearly that people are mostly there for the games (and nostalgia).

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 13:16:41
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1756
From: Unknown

@vision
lol : ) just keep your fingers from the dog.

_________________
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OlafS25 
Re: Get ready for 64-bit Amigas!
Posted on 15-Oct-2019 13:55:10
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5607
From: Unknown

@Cool_amigaN

then we wait for the flood of new morphos software in near future ;)

68k has most development support from the past

I know that because it was one of my main goals to integrate as much as possible in my 68k distribution. Only few compilers were ported to any of the NG platforms.

I do not know flow studio so I cannot judge it

Finally user counts and in many cases not the best technical solutions win. I do not care why people use f.e. Vampire+Aros 68k/3.1, finally it is important that people use it. That means potential buyers and that again attracts developers. Simple as that.

Software sells hardware

Regarding browser... yes even vampire will have problems to run a uptodate browser (if one would be available). But that is not that important because people do not use amigas as main system like some of the NG users try but for fun as a hobby system and use another system (PC or Mac) for "serious work".

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Oct-2019 at 02:06 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Oct-2019 at 02:01 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Oct-2019 at 01:59 PM.

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