@Karlos

Quote:

My only criticism of the A1200 was the that it didn't have some fast ram out of the box

I understand where you are coming from.

On the other hand the A1200 aim was to be very low cost ...
I understand why they left nice to have but cost increasing features away.

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: My only criticism of the A1200 was the that it didn't have some fast ram out of the box. There are various ways this could have been done and all of them would have increased the cost, but even the basic 020 with fast ram was just so much more capable the stock configuration.

But that was the traditional Amiga design, so you shouldn't have been surprised. The 1000, A500, A600 and A2000CR also didn't include FastRAM out of the box, and only the A2000 and A4000 had FastRAM options from Commodore.

By not including FastRAM the user got the base machine a lot cheaper and could put the money saved towards whatever they wanted, or nothing if they were happy with the stock machine - which many were. As time went on the 3rd party options would multiply, so you knew the potential was there and just had to wait.

I guess the problem was that seasoned enthusiasts looking to upgrade wanted a lot more, but initially the only option was the A4000 which cost as much as a mid-range 486. Commodore had plans for a mid-range AGA machine for US$1000, but it went over budget and they couldn't afford to produce yet another overpriced model that didn't sell.

The truth is that by 1992 Commodore was already headed towards bankruptcy and was largely being controlled by its creditors, particularly the bank which was insisting on trimming the 'fat' to the bone. Under that pressure it's amazing they got any new models out at all.

@bhabbott

I don't think it was a lot cheaper. Memory prices had descended a lot by end 1992 and given hit had been falling before that it should have been possible to anticipate.

It's not a big criticism. It would have required a board design change, yes. But it wouldn't have required all the things people retroactively claim were necessary.

One possible solution would have been to simply not include the CPU at all on the motherboard and just ship with a pre fitted 020 board with memory. That's the most expensive since the after market value of the pre shipped board is nothing, except as spares/replacement. Nevertheless it's an interesting idea.

I think a better option would have been to design the motherboard with fast ram on it. This is not as simple to do, as you are dealing with 4 new 8-bit ram chips and all the signals they need. Or a SIMM socket, again with the same signal routing complications.

We didn't get that. We got a hobbled 020 on the board and saved about 30 dollars (based on 1MB price end 1992) in SKUs but an unknown amount on the overall complexity of the solution.

It was easily fixed though, it's just a shame. The impact of a full 020 with zero wait state memory would've been worth it IMO. Games and applications for AGA being able to rely on fast would have made quite some difference. Also, the CD32.

AGA 020 systems with fast ram by default (1MB minimum) is a hill I will die on. In order to avoid a prolonged painful rehashing of this argument, I'm happy enough to just disagree.

_________________
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@Karlos

Quote:

It was easily fixed though, it's just a shame. The impact of a full 020 with zero wait state memory would've been worth it IMO. Games and applications for AGA being able to rely on fast would have made quite some difference. Also, the CD32.

I absolutely understand what you mean.

If your goal is to calculate game content on the fly like DOOM did, then fastmem will help here.
On the other hand if your goal is to "show" prepared content like in a 2D game, then more chipmem will be nice.

@Gunnar

More chip memory and additional fast are not mutually exclusive desires, of course. Up to 8MB chip support would've been awesome, had it worked in practise.

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@Hypex

Quote:

...reading up on CGA, EGA and VGA graphic modes...

The lack of hires GFX modes with high refresh rates and affordable Harddisks was one the biggest problems on early Amigas, it crippled its usage in professional office applications.

People who where using it as a game console on their TV might have seen it differently, later it was he lack of affordable GFX & Network Cards together with the lack of software support under AOS1.3 and AOS2.x.

And an office capable Amiga would have made game developers supporting the desktop models and made them more attractive for gamers.

The Amiga market had a 'Chicken&Egg' problem of its own ... less chickens are leading to less eggs.

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: @Karlos Quote: My only criticism of the A1200 was the that it didn't have some fast ram out of the box I understand where you are coming from. On the other hand the A1200 aim was to be very low cost ... I understand why they left nice to have but cost increasing features away.

The problem is stock A1200 didn't deliver the "new 32-bit" 2.5D/3D gaming experience, hence it's competing against the late '16-bit" SNES's gaming experience.

In late 1992, near ground zero A1200 had to compete against SNES's larger install base that started in 1990.

A500/A600 was the "Atari ST" against the A1200 since Commodore didn't properly develop the transition between OCS/ECS to AGA platforms.

For AGA gaming, Commodore can't exploit the existing big box Amigas OCS/ECS with 32-bit 68020/68030 CPUs into the AGA platform since these big box Amigas have game console topology.

For cost reduction reasons, gaming PCs have been optimized for single graphics cards since the VLB and AGP era while workstation/server PCs have symmetric fast expansion slots.

Gaming PCs with 386DX CPUs may have VLB or EISA and ISA asymmetric slots.

The PC exploits their existing 386DX and 486 install base and turns them into gaming PCs. The install base for VGA and 32-bit X86 platform target started in 1987.

The gaming PC hardware that can run Doom and its other 2.5D/3D games of the 1992-to-1993 era, competed in a higher mid-price segment. My interest in gaming PCs started with Wing Commander VGA released in 1990. The "killer app" sells the hardware.

Nintendo was bankrolling custom hardware accelerators bundled with their game cartridges.

Commodore didn't release a single Zorro II or III slot-equipped Amiga model to enable economies of scale Amiga RTG add-on card market. No Amiga clone will cover Commodore's mid-price SKU gaps.

The Commodore mentality is like releasing Xbox One (e.g. CD32), an ITX-based PC without a graphics expansion slot (e.g. A1200), and a workstation PC with symmetric fast expansion slots (e.g. A4000). The single fast expansion slot-equipped gaming PC segment is missing.

In modern PCs, AMD Threadrippers and Intel Xeon W790 platforms have symmetric fast expansion slots. Gaming PC platforms such as AMD's A620 to X670E and Intel H610 to Z790 only have a single fast expansion slot which follows the concepts from single slot VLB or AGP for gaming PCs.

Only certain higher X670E and Z790 SKUs have at least two PCIe 5.0 with 8-lane slots since they are blending into workstation platform use cases.

Commodore didn't have a clone Amiga market to spread manufacturing costs to 3rd parties. Commodore wasn't interested in being AMD/ASmedia's and Intel's fat chipset business model.

AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm led their respective clone OEM/ODM partners.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 02:31 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 02:28 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 12:17 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Gunnar Quote: I have the utmost respect for their work. +1 You know, we're all (well most of us) armchair engineers beating down on Commodore's mistakes. Personally I don't get the angst over AGA. It was meant to be a temporary solution and it was meant to be affordable. My A1200 was a big jump over my A600 back in 1993. I have absolutely no regrets. My A1200 is the computer I have had the most fun with. My only criticism of the A1200 was the that it didn't have some fast ram out of the box. There are various ways this could have been done and all of them would have increased the cost, but even the basic 020 with fast ram was just so much more capable the stock configuration.

My comments are based on Commodore's employees.

Gaming PC's Doom-capable machines competed in the mid-price segment where there's a large price hole between A1200 and A4000/030.

During 1993, A4000/030 competed against Gateway 2000's 486SX-33-based PC.

Apple Quadra 605 ($999 USD, 68LC040) targeted A4000 could be made e.g. remove the bus board card, and add a 68LC040 card. A3000/030 (includes 68882 FPU with above 0.66 MFLOPS which is nearly useless for games) was sold at $899 and A3000T/040 (full 68040 variant) at $1599 which is missing AGA's Lisa and Alice chips. The A3000 family still has extra SCSI and Amber flicker fixer components.

Again, is Lisa and Alice chips worth the $700 USD price markup when the CD32 has a 299 UKP price?

1993 was Commodore's critical year for survival.

Commodore Germany was to blame for the A300 (aka A600) scope crepe that led to the A500's cancelation.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 06:54 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote: @Hammer Quote: Hammer wrote: From jo...@idcube.idsoftware.com Sun Sep 4 02:52 EST 1994 From: John Carmack Date: Sat, 3 Sep 94 11:50:23 -0600 To: G.San...@ais.gu.edu.au Subject: amiga doom The amiga is not powerfull enough to run DOOM. It takes the full speed of a 68040 to play the game properly even if you have a chunky pixel mode in hardware. Having to convert to bit planes would kill it even on the fastest amiga hardware, not to mention the effect it would have on the majority of the amiga base. This was a newsgroup post in response to an Amiga fan pointing out that there were Amigas powerful enough to run Doom. Carmack's response indicates that he wasn't interested in porting Doom to such a small market (the 'majority of the amiga base' being A500s which obviously couldn't run it). We know this because he did allow porting it to other lesser platforms such as the SNES, which needed an SFX Chip in the cartridge to get acceptable performance. It also had no floor or ceiling textures and the enemies always faced forwards. Despite these simplifications and the 'Super' FX chip it still only achieved a frame rate of around 10fps. But this was OK because there was a huge captive market for Doom on the SNES (can't pirate that cartridge, have to buy one!). So it was really all about potential sales, not whether or not the hardware was fast enough. BTW note the date on his post - 3 Sep 94 - well after Commodore was no more. Bit late for a 'damaging PR remark' against the Amiga, you think?

Carmack's 1994 response enforced a certain view in the AAA game industry.

Many of PC's 2.5D and 3D games for 386DX-33 to 486SX-33 can run on A1200 with 50 Mhz 68030 and 68LC040 accelerators. I don't recall any of EA's texture-mapped 2.5D/3D games for 32-bit PCs being released on the Amiga AGA.

Team 17 has other 3D games for "32-bit" PCs besides the Alien Breed 3D series.


Nintendo's SNES Doom port tactic is a bridge to N64's 1996 release while PlayStation in the Western market's Q4 1995 release has Doom ports. Nintendo has a greater concern with PlayStation's Western market Q4 1995 release.


Meanwhile, Pentium's 1995 year was in its 3rd (Pentium P5's 350 nm, 120, 133) and 4th (Pentium Pro, 1st gen P6) evolution pushing down the earlier Pentium SKU (60, 66, 75, 90, 100) prices. Pentium Pro served as the basis for Pentium II evolution.

PlayStation's install base boomed in 1996 and PC has Pentium Pro P6 and Pentium P5 200, 166, and 150 SKUs to push down the earlier Pentium SKU (60, 66, 75, 90, 100, 120, 133) prices.

Amiga's 1999 released Wipeout 2097 port was done by a 3rd party with a tiny Amiga PowerPC install base. From open source, Wipeout 2097 was later ported to the Amiga 68K.

Psygnosis has released many 3D games for 32-bit platforms (e.g. PS1, PC, Saturn) except for "32-bit" Amigas.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 01:48 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote: But that was the traditional Amiga design, so you shouldn't have been surprised. The 1000, A500, A600 and A2000CR also didn't include FastRAM out of the box, and only the A2000 and A4000 had FastRAM options from Commodore.

My A3000/030 @ 25 Mhz had the "1 MB Chip RAM and 1 MB Fast RAM" and Amiga Vision software bundle. A3000's 1MB Fast RAM chips can be moved into empty Chip RAM sockets for 2 MB Chip RAM configuration.

The transition from A3000 (with 25Mhz 68030/68882 and ECS) to A1200 (with 68EC020 and AGA) wasn't an ideal upgrade until the March 1993 release of A4000/030. Q4 1992 Xmas was missed and my Dad purchased a 386DX-33/ET4000-based PC clone during H2 1992.

The purchase experience with A3000's dead end for AGA/VGA era gaming wasn't good and marked the end of my family's near-automatic Commodore selection.

In the late 1980s, my Dad's workmates have A2000s as their gaming and productivity desktop computers, not A500s. AGA motherboard drop replacement would be fine for A2000 and A3000. The game console mindset wouldn't work on big-box desktop computers.

_________________
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@Hammer

Quote:

The problem is stock A1200 didn't deliver the "new 32-bit" 2.5D/3D gaming experience,

Is DOOM for you very important?

What about games like Simon the Sorcerer or Jump and Run games?
The Amiga was very good in 2D games. And nice 2D games was its market.
How many 2D games are there for Amiga? Around 4000 games?

@Hammer

Quote:

Psygnosis has released many 3D games for 32-bit platforms (e.g. PS1, PC, Saturn) except for "32-bit" Amigas.

Playstation has hardware texture mapping.
It goes without saying that games using this will not work on Amiga 1200.

What exactly is your point?

@Hammer

Hammer wrote:
Quote:

From jo...@idcube.idsoftware.com Sun Sep 4 02:52 EST 1994 From: John Carmack Date: Sat, 3 Sep 94 11:50:23 -0600 To: G.San...@ais.gu.edu.au Subject: amiga doom The amiga is not powerfull enough to run DOOM. It takes the full speed of a 68040 to play the game properly even if you have a chunky pixel mode in hardware. Having to convert to bit planes would kill it even on the fastest amiga hardware, not to mention the effect it would have on the majority of the amiga base.

Is what he said true
or is this post not true?

Can you not run DOOM even with just a 68030 CPU on CD32 or Amiga1200 ?

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: Is DOOM for you very important? What about games like Simon the Sorcerer or Jump and Run games? The Amiga was very good in 2D games. And nice 2D games was its market. How many 2D games are there for Amiga? Around 4000 games?

Most Amiga 2D games run on my A3000 with some degrader tool.

SNES is a very strong platform for 2D games which includes excellent 2D arcade ports.

Metro Siege and Reshoot Proxima 3 AGA didn't exist in the critical 1993 year.

Amiga's technical 2D quality wasn't consistent with a few notable games like Elf Mania, Shadow Fighter/Shadow Fighter AGA, Star Dust/Super Star Dust AGA, Brian the Lion / Brian the Lion AGA and 'etc'.

Amiga's Scorpion Engine didn't exist in 1990s.

I curate my Amiga WHDload games into smooth, parallax, puzzles, adventure and sports folders. The Parallax folder acts like games tech demo collection.

From my POV, Reshoot Proxima 3 AGA example blows away Banshee AGA and it's in SNES's good shooter level. Project X is ordinary, but it has a nice music.

The Amiga has Super Skidmarks (1995) and Super Star Dust (AGA, 1994) and they are okay, but the PC and PlayStation had Destruction Derby (1995, 3D, Sony).

Unlike the PC version, Amiga's Super Street Fighter Turbo AGA couldn't scale with CPU power e.g. 68060.

Doom is one example during the 1993 time period. I also played games such as Star Wars X-Wing (1993), IndyCar Racing (1993, from Papyrus Design Group), Magic Carpet (1994), Wing Commander VGA (1990), Wing Commander II (1991), Star Wars Dark Forces (1995), Rise of the Triad (1994/1995), Destruction Derby (1995, Sony), Need for Speed (1995, EA), Screamer Rally (1997) and many others in PC-to-Amiga RTG port list.

Your AC68080 and SAGA RTG allow improved performance for PC-to-Amiga RTG ports on Commodore's Amigas.

Amiga WHDload and increased PC-to-Amiga RTG ported games help with the Amiga retro scene i.e. a retro machine handles Amiga WHDLoad, MacOS 68K games (Shapeshifter) and PC-to-Amiga RTG ported games with good WIMP UI that is better than MS-DOS. The Amiga has guaranteed Paula audio, hence no MS-DOS's Sound Blaster (IRQ,DMA,Addr) configs.

My 386DX-33 (overclocked to 40 Mhz via minor FSB OC) needed to be replaced by 1995, hence Pentium 166 based PC in 1996.

For PC's 2D, I played Mortal Kombat (1992, PC version), Mortal Kombat II (1995, PC version), Super Street Fighter Turbo (1995, PC version), Tyrian (1995), Diablo (1997), Warcraft: Orcs & Humans RTS (1994), StarCraft (1998), Raptor Call of the Shadows (1994), Rayman (1995,
Ubisoft) and 'etc'.

Against SNES arcade ports, the PC has the superior version, hence the "PC Master Race".

The PC has the typical Amiga ports like Zool 2, Lotus 3, Chaos Engine, Gods, Body Blows and 'etc'.

386DX-33/ET4000AX based PC acted like A1200 with 68030 @ 50Mhz accelerator, but A1200 with 030 @ 50 Mhz accelerator total price competed against PC clones like Gateway 2000's 486SX-33 based PCs.

During 1996, A3000's Phase 5 CyberStorm 060 and CyberVision 64 upgrades weren't cost-competitive.

Gaming PC's superior game library is the major factor in my selection for Pentium 166 over Apple's PowerMac. Apple PowerMac was in consideration.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 02:09 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 02:06 PM.

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@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote: @Hammer Hammer wrote: Quote: From jo...@idcube.idsoftware.com Sun Sep 4 02:52 EST 1994 From: John Carmack Date: Sat, 3 Sep 94 11:50:23 -0600 To: G.San...@ais.gu.edu.au Subject: amiga doom The amiga is not powerfull enough to run DOOM. It takes the full speed of a 68040 to play the game properly even if you have a chunky pixel mode in hardware. Having to convert to bit planes would kill it even on the fastest amiga hardware, not to mention the effect it would have on the majority of the amiga base. Is what he said true or is this post not true? Can you not run DOOM even with just a 68030 CPU on CD32 or Amiga1200 ?

Amiga's 68040/68LC040 with AGA install base is small.

_________________
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@Hammer

Gunnar wrote:

Quote:

Is what he said true or is this post not true? Can you not run DOOM even with just a 68030 CPU on CD32 or Amiga1200 ?

Hammer:
Quote:

Amiga's 68040/68LC040 with AGA install base is small.

My point was AMIGAs with 68030 CPU can run DOOM decently
The 68030 CPU is very common.



The quote from John Carmack which you all the time talk about : IS DE FACTO NOT CORRECT

Last edited by Gunnar on 12-Mar-2024 at 08:54 AM.

@Gunnar

Amiga's 68030 @ 50 Mhz with AGA install base is still small. My A1200 Rev 1D4 needs the timing fix when using accelerator cards.

John Carmack wasn't an Amiga programmer who specialized in Amiga custom chipsets e.g. Blitter assist C2P.

Other platform holders paid for their Doom ports including Microsoft's Doom 95 and WinDoom.

Origin Systems didn't continue Wing Commander 2 for "32-bit" Amiga platforms.

Commodore-backed A1200 or CD32 baseline with 3DO's and PS1's 3 MB total RAM SKU could have allowed the game ports from other "32-bit" platforms with low frame rates, but this allows the Amiga user to run these 3MB games and create higher demand for CPU upgrades.

The large 386 PC install base with 4 MB RAM allows the "foot in the door" for 3rd party game developers and creates a higher demand for hardware upgrades.

The Amiga platform has a chicken vs egg problem.

PS; I slightly overclocked my i386DX-33 into i386DX-40 since the motherboard supports faster 32-bit CPUs.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Mar-2024 at 01:36 PM.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @bhabbott I don't think it was a lot cheaper. Memory prices had descended a lot by end 1992 and given hit had been falling before that it should have been possible to anticipate. It's not a big criticism. It would have required a board design change, yes. But it wouldn't have required all the things people retroactively claim were necessary. One possible solution would have been to simply not include the CPU at all on the motherboard and just ship with a pre fitted 020 board with memory. That's the most expensive since the after market value of the pre shipped board is nothing, except as spares/replacement. Nevertheless it's an interesting idea. I think a better option would have been to design the motherboard with fast ram on it. This is not as simple to do, as you are dealing with 4 new 8-bit ram chips and all the signals they need. Or a SIMM socket, again with the same signal routing complications. We didn't get that. We got a hobbled 020 on the board and saved about 30 dollars (based on 1MB price end 1992) in SKUs but an unknown amount on the overall complexity of the solution. It was easily fixed though, it's just a shame. The impact of a full 020 with zero wait state memory would've been worth it IMO. Games and applications for AGA being able to rely on fast would have made quite some difference. Also, the CD32. AGA 020 systems with fast ram by default (1MB minimum) is a hill I will die on. In order to avoid a prolonged painful rehashing of this argument, I'm happy enough to just disagree.

At a low frame rate, the 3 MB RAM baseline AGA target could have allowed game ports that use 3MB RAM from other 32-bit systems like PS1 and 3DO.

I do support AGA systems with an extra 1 MB 32-bit Fast RAM baseline argument, hence 2 MB Chip RAM + 1 MB Fast RAM AGA baseline.

AAA 3rd party game developers were targeting 3 to 4 MB RAM for 386DX-based PCs.

Adding 1 MB 32-bit Fast RAM enables the full hardware potential for A1200 and CD32 which is nearly 2X. 14 Mhz 68EC020 has 32-bit barrel shifter hardware.

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@Gunnar

Quote:

My point was AMIGAs with 68030 CPU can run DOOM decently The 68030 CPU is very common. The quote from John Carmack which you all the time talk about : IS DE FACTO NOT CORRECT

It was correct when it was written, it took quite some time and work for Doom on Amiga to become playable.

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@kolla

Was it really correct?

What was the quote:
At least an 68040 CPU is needed and the
68040 CPU would NOT be able to play it smooth as the Chunky2Planar would be so slow.

And Hammer die base his argument on this ... post ... saying Amiga 1200 AGA can not run DOOM


What is correct?
Correct is that Chunky2Planar cost a little but not that much.

So is the claim Chunky2Planar would make this impossible correct?
No


I think we all agree that the Amiga 1200 is a nice budget computer, with thousands of cool games.
And with an 68030 CPU card it can even run Doom.