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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 6:47:18
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:
@Hypex

A better solution than parallel writes would have simply been bypassing the planar-to-chunky stage in Lisa, i.e. having Lisa use the bytes received directly as color register indices. The most complex change would have been adjusting the bitplanes data fetching, but, given that Alice was new as well, that could have been done - it was not rocket science. Of course, for backward compatibility such chunky mode should have been made optional (a bypass bit in BPLCON3 would have sufficed).
That said, PED81C shows that AGA can actually do chunky natively (albeit with certain limitations)

EDIT: using -> use

Commodore didn't add a chunky pixel raster logic in the Lisa.

https://youtu.be/yfBOmXOKnKU?t=75
Graffiti for Amiga Doom with 68030 @ 50Mhz with 32 MB Fast RAM and A1200's 32-bit Chip RAM bandwidth for Lisa raster.

FPGA Lisa/Denise's drop-in-replacement could include a Graffiti raster.

Before PiStorm32, my A1200 had TF1260 and Indivision AGA Mk3 (which has a Graffiti feature).

It's possible to add Graffiti into PiStorm-RPi's camera capture to HDMI output project.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 7:05:02
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
They "simply" (!) lacked creativity. They worked on just patching the ECS, and in a horrible way..


And Cesare Di Mauro, is again bitching against the Developers Designers.
Does is make you happy to bitch and insult real developers?



Quote:
* Alice and Lisa adapted to fetch and process data sequentially using a single pointer (no big deal);


No big deal is very easy to say - for someone who someone outside who not did anything.


Yes I think we all agree that it would have been VERY cool if AGA would have had a Chunky Mode.
For DOOM like 2D games this would have made a big difference.

And such BYTE mode was planned for AAA.

AGA did unfortunately not had it.
We have to mind here that all these developments always were done under time pressure.

Maybe you guys recall when you at school had to write an exam in a certain time limit.
The same is true for all Amiga chipset developments.
They had a number of ideas, plans and wishes ...
And they had a Management closing the door at some point.
This is very normal in development.

In my opinion the Amiga designers did a very good job.
The Amiga developers did something real.
The Amiga were used by millions of people and they shaped a whole computer generation.


I think its very unfair from outside to look at any hardware development or any development and to start bitching.


Commodore management had a "read my lips, no new chips" directive during the A3000's R&D phase.



1989 era Amiga 500 Rev 6A already has ECS 2MB Chip RAM jumper mode.

For the AMIX (Amiga Unix) workstation high-resolution 640 x 400p to 1024 x 1024p x 8-bit use cases, Commodore selected the Texas Instruments TSM34010 (TIGA) chipset for the A2410 graphics card (Amiga 2000 was designed in Commodore Germany).

TIGA did nothing for Amiga chipset improvements.

Both A3000 and A3000UX were released in 1990.

Commodore bitched about GVP's EGS RTG solution with promises of Commodore RTG.

Running out of time was Commodore management's fault.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Feb-2024 at 07:16 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Feb-2024 at 07:14 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Feb-2024 at 07:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Feb-2024 at 07:06 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 7:22:07
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@Cesare

Quote:
They "simply" (!) lacked creativity.


Cesare why are you always insulting the Amiga developers?
How many posts did you write here in which you call the Amiga designers, stupid or uncreative or not good?

Are you not a person who never did anything in his life and has no skill for developing anything...
What gives you the right to "LOOK DOWN" on the Amiga inventors and to bash them?

Dave Haynie attacked Commodore management's little minds.

Commodore's IBM Jr management import sucked.

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 11:01:15
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

Quote:
Quote:
I really wonder whether the engineers, so focused on making AGA a mostly compatible, simply bigger version of ECS, just didn't think about it.

That's pretty much it. Or to be more precise, they avoided thinking about it. The Amiga was originally designed to have up to 8 bitplanes. AGA was simply the fulfillment of that.

It sounds like speculation, is that so (genuine question)? I never read of any engineer says something along those lines (edit: I refer to the "avoided thinking about it" part, which basically is just like saying "they chose to not go for it").

Quote:
AAA was going to have 8/4/2 bit chunky mode, but that chipset was too complicated and never got finished. AGA was developed in parallel with AAA when it looked like they might need something with intermediate capabilities sooner - which they did.

The fact that they did recognize the need to go chunky makes it even more incredible that they didn't seize the chance to implement at least a single playfield chunky mode in AGA (as described earlier). Maybe (more speculation) they did think about it and excluded it because supporting it in the OS would have been quite an undertaking (it basically boiled down to implementing RTG)?

Quote:
They deliberately avoided making big changes to the way AGA worked to simplify the design and maintain compatibility with OCS/ECS and the OS. IMO this was generally a good idea, but they should have found a way to squeeze chunky 8 bit chunky mode in there for compatibility with VGA - even if only as a marketing gimmick.

Regarding chunky, what we're saying here is precisely that the "way" was relatively easy (a basic 8 bit mode would have required simply skipping planar-to-chunky in Lisa and have Lisa and Alice read the data using just a single pointer).
Compatibility with VGA is a different story and is not the purpose of a chunky mode. And a chunky mode, especially considering the whole context, would have been much more than a gimmick for stock machines.
(Side note: just to be clear, I quite like AGA and I'm not one of those who disses the engineers; I just believe that chunky was only one step away which unfortunately was not taken.)

Quote:
If I was going to drop anything it wouldn't be HAM8 - which was excellent - but 'promotable' high scan rate modes, as making them compatible was a huge headache. The vast majority of users would be using a TV or 15kHz monitor (which all previous software was designed for), and any high scan rate solution would require an expensive multisync monitor. The idea of being able to use a VGA monitor for everything didn't pan out. Commodore wasted a lot of effort trying to do it - effort they could have put towards a chunky mode.

If I had had infinite time, I'd gladly have continued the OT... but I don't have such luxury (and I shouldn't be posting here in first place), so I'll just say that my personal opinion is completely opposite

Last edited by saimo on 28-Feb-2024 at 11:35 AM.
Last edited by saimo on 28-Feb-2024 at 11:34 AM.

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 11:12:42
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
It's waste of bitplanes, yes, but if the goal was/is have just one playfield in packed/chunky mode... then who cares if all 8 bitplanes had to be loaded? In fact, the proposed change is really minimal in terms of implementations costs, and that's the most important factor here.

Both solutions are about at the same level of complexity - and I'm not that sure that using all the bitplanes pointers is simpler than processing the data sequentially using a single pointer (which is something that both Lisa and Alice already do: the only change needed would be reusing the same pointer after one fetch instead of using the other pointers).
Anyway, this is all (good) academic talk - things went differently, so I just enjoy AGA for what it is.

Quote:
Quote:
SIde note: now I'm just hoping that AGA hides a bug somewhere that stops Alice from fetching data for some bitplanes while Lisa unknowingly keeps on using the last latched data (a bit like what the 4/6 bitplanes trick does on OCS/ECS) - that would allow to make PED81c use half the bandwidth it currently needs!

AFAIR it requires SHRES, right? Then it consumes a heck of bandwidth... :-/

That's precisely where my wish comes from. That said, still PED81C is / can be advantageous, especially on stock/underpowered machines (the details, for whoever is interested, are included in the PERFORMANCE CONSIDERATIONS section of the documentation).

Last edited by saimo on 28-Feb-2024 at 11:16 AM.

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 11:14:29
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@Gunnar

Quote:
Quote:
* Alice and Lisa adapted to fetch and process data sequentially using a single pointer (no big deal);


No big deal is very easy to say - for someone who someone outside who not did anything.

Personal attack and its author >NIL:

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 11:32:02
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Quote:
A better solution than parallel writes would have simply been bypassing the planar-to-chunky stage in Lisa, i.e. having Lisa use the bytes received directly as color register indices. The most complex change would have been adjusting the bitplanes data fetching, but, given that Alice was new as well, that could have been done - it was not rocket science. Of course, for backward compatibility such chunky mode should have been made optional (a bypass bit in BPLCON3 would have sufficed).
That said, PED81C shows that AGA can actually do chunky natively (albeit with certain limitations)

EDIT: using -> use

Commodore didn't add a chunky pixel raster logic in the Lisa.

If you re-read what I wrote, you should see that:
* the fact that Lisa (and AGA in general) does not provide a native chunky mode is the premise of what I was saying (so, there was no need to remind me of that);
* PED81C does get AGA to work in chunky mode (with some restrictions) - it's a fact, it exists and it can be tried by everybody, as I made some demos available for download; and if you can't be bothered trying the demos and/or reading the documentation, here is a YouTube playlist with a few videos.

Last edited by saimo on 28-Feb-2024 at 11:37 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 21:27:25
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3646
From: Germany

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
They "simply" (!) lacked creativity. They worked on just patching the ECS, and in a horrible way..


And Cesare Di Mauro, is again bitching against the Developers Designers.

Since when reporting FACTS is configurable as "insulting"?

Do you lack elementary logic? Because it should be very easy to understand this basic concept.
Quote:
Does is make you happy to bitch and insult real developers?

Similar as above, does the "real" adjective gives any value or changes anything about FACTS? Keeping in a simpler way (for YOUR benefit), does a FACT stops to be a fact only because we're talking about "read" developers (whatever meaning do you want to attribute to "real")?

That, again, is about elementary logic, eh! Nothing which requires a PhD in Advanced Logic...

I wonder how a supposed expert on implementing hardware logic shows a complete lack of elementary logic when it's about ordinary discussions with other human beings. Anyway, and as I've said many times, not my problem!

Quote:
* Alice and Lisa adapted to fetch and process data sequentially using a single pointer (no big deal);
Quote:
No big deal is very easy to say - for someone who someone outside who not did anything.

What's the big deal with this then? Any information that you could share?
Quote:
Yes I think we all agree that it would have been VERY cool if AGA would have had a Chunky Mode.
For DOOM like 2D games this would have made a big difference.

Not only for DOOM et similar: packed/chunky graphics is proven to be almost always better than planar graphic.
Quote:
And such BYTE mode was planned for AAA.

AGA did unfortunately not had it.
We have to mind here that all these developments always were done under time pressure.

Maybe you guys recall when you at school had to write an exam in a certain time limit.
The same is true for all Amiga chipset developments.
They had a number of ideas, plans and wishes ...
And they had a Management closing the door at some point.
This is very normal in development.

Like taking FIVE years to develop a simple enhancement over the original chipset?

Like taking another TWO years to develop a horrible patch over the enhanced chipset?

Have you took a look at what developments & advancements were made by the competition?
Quote:
In my opinion the Amiga designers did a very good job.
The Amiga developers did something real.
The Amiga were used by millions of people and they shaped a whole computer generation.

Amiga developers (I mean: of the Amiga 1000) did a great job (albeit they could have done better choices in some domains) and we enjoyed their work.

Something that cannot be said for their successors. The fact that some of their models sold a million of machines doesn't change it.
Quote:
I think its very unfair from outside to look at any hardware development or any development and to start bitching.

As I've already said before, FACTs remain FACTs, despite your tentative to minimize them because you see them as offending your holy totems.

Quote:
Quote:
They "simply" (!) lacked creativity.

Cesare why are you always insulting the Amiga developers?

Maybe because I haven't done it? As I've said before, reporting FACTs doesn't qualify for insulting people. The only relevant thing here is that blind Talibans like you do NOT like what I say, but... who cares?!?

This clarified, I don't know if it's again because you're functional illiterate or you're mystifying on purpose, because I wasn't talking about the Amiga developers. Let me report my FULL sentence here, that you've artificially cut for your own purposes:

Maybe because such engineers lacked creativity. I really don't see anything smart, innovative which they've realized after the work of the original Amiga team.

I've highlighted the relevant parts for YOUR benefit.

Ist es klar? Maybe you get it if I write it in German.
Quote:
How many posts did you write here in which you call the Amiga designers, stupid or uncreative or not good?

There can be even billions reporting FACTS, and what's the point? You don't like to see critics towards what you consider "gods", right? Do you think that I should mute myself only for the pleasure of blind zealots like you?

The crime of "lese-majesty" was already abolished very long time ago, do you know it?

Maybe your problem is that you feel on the same position with the design of your crappy 68080 and SAGA? "I need something, let's patch this and this and I've it". That's your mindset: you've shown a complete lack of creativity on your decisions. And we know very well that you're completely allergic to critics: "god cannot be criticized", right?

But if I've to say something I don't see why I've to first check who's the person: I make no exceptions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead
Quote:
Are you not a person who never did anything in his life and has no skill for developing anything...

What a new: personal attacks! Since you're UNABLE to rebut my FACTS then you go personal. Oh, poor guy: do you think that you make any "points" to your holy war against the infidels?

You've already shown multiple times that you don't know where logic stays home, and you don't need to repeat it again. But, hey, it's, again, YOUR problem!
Quote:
What gives you the right to "LOOK DOWN" on the Amiga inventors and to bash them?

Do you know Gunnar, that we're living on a FREE world? Are you still stuck on the "good old" (!) times of around one hundred years ago? I know that you very much like censorship but... there's freedom of speech here ('til now, at least) and I've "just (!!) reported FACTS. If you don't like them, well, I don't give you a big F: who F cares!

Now, if you've something TECHNICAL that can useful and that could be added to the discussion... you're welcome. But continuing to go personal and surreptitiously invoking a censorship against what you've recognized as "enemies" only shows how a poor guy are you.

Here we're not on your forum, where you ban people, remove their comments, and even remove entire threads because you're the admin: you're a user like ANY another. And you don't deserve any more respect only because you're Gunnar, you've made something, etc..

Last but not really least, if you don't like what people write then you're not forced to read and even commenting what they have written. You had no medical prescription to do it! Skip our comments, live your life, and let the others live their own.

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cdimauro 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 21:29:22
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3646
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@Gunnar

Commodore management had a "read my lips, no new chips" directive during the A3000's R&D phase.

Again? That's no true, as I've proven on another couple of articles about ECS.

Why the Amber chip was developed then? It costed. And the 384kB of memory which it used costed as well.
Quote:
Dave Haynie attacked Commodore management's little minds.

Do you think that only the management had short minds? Were the engineers exempt?

I don't think so, and there are several proofs that ALL of them had their part on the failures.

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cdimauro 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 21:31:01
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3646
From: Germany

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:
@cdimauro

Both solutions are about at the same level of complexity - and I'm not that sure that using all the bitplanes pointers is simpler than processing the data sequentially using a single pointer (which is something that both Lisa and Alice already do: the only change needed would be reusing the same pointer after one fetch instead of using the other pointers).

Just one point on that: the solution that I've proposed if fully compatible with the chipset's slot allocation strategy. So, you need to change nothing there: everything works as it is.

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 28-Feb-2024 21:54:20
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
Just one point on that: the solution that I've proposed if fully compatible with the chipset's slot allocation strategy. So, you need to change nothing there: everything works as it is.

Well, the single-pointer alternative wouldn't change the slots allocations either: Alice would keep on accessing the CHIP bus as usual, but it would generate the addresses from a single pointer rather than from all of them.

EDIT: them -> then -> than

Last edited by saimo on 29-Feb-2024 at 01:07 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 29-Feb-2024 at 01:07 PM.
Last edited by saimo on 28-Feb-2024 at 09:54 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 3:31:23
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:

If you re-read what I wrote, you should see that:
* the fact that Lisa (and AGA in general) does not provide a native chunky mode is the premise of what I was saying (so, there was no need to remind me of that);
* PED81C does get AGA to work in chunky mode (with some restrictions) - it's a fact, it exists and it can be tried by everybody, as I made some demos available for download; and if you can't be bothered trying the demos and/or reading the documentation, here is a YouTube playlist with a few videos.

I have read PED81C and its limitations are less than ideal. I preferred the Graffiti-Lisa workaround's 256-color VGA-like results.

Limiting to 4-bit planes, games like Dread / Grind are Hollywood frame rate smooth on stock A1200. The 16-color artwork is good on Dread / Grind.

Commodore failed to provide 8-bit chunky pixels in a timely fashion or failed to create a good 1st party game studio that optimized (e.g. Dread example) for stock A1200. For Dread / Grind, Amiga's Blitter hardware was used to assist with C2P conversion.

Commodore promoted the late 16-bit gaming experience (e.g. SNES) with the so-called "32-bit" A1200 and CD32. Commodore UK's CPU-accelerated A1200 bundle attempt was important to distance A1200 from SNES's late 16-bit gaming experience.

It seems Commodore wasn't aware of Blitter's C2P assist since they designed Akiko's C2P.

Full 32-bit gaming PCs avoided being steamrolled by SNES with PC's "32-bit" Doom's fake 3D experience. IndyCar Racing and Star Wars X-Wing were also released in 1993. Heretic, Wing Commander 3, and Doom 2 were released in 1994. 32-bit gaming PC has several "3D" games that are out of reach of 1993-1994 era SNES.

SNES's Doom SuperFX2 port was released on September 1, 1995, which at this point, it's a PlayStation vs Pentium class PC battle. The PC market has been building the classic Pentium install base since 1993 and it was ready to stand its ground against PlayStation's Q4 1995 western market release.

Nintendo has excellent 1st party studio games despite inferior SNES and Switch hardware when compared to other hardware competition.


Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 03:32 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 3:48:30
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Again? That's no true, as I've proven on another couple of articles about ECS.

Who are you?

You're not a Commodore senior engineer who battled against Commodore management.

Again, the 1989-era A500 Rev 6A motherboard had a 2 MB Chip RAM reserve capability before the A3000's 1990 release.

With jumper setting change and four higher density RAM, A500 Rev 6A can use A3000's Agnus ECS for its 2 MB Chip RAM configuration.

ECS Denise's 4-color 640x480p productivity mode is obsolete in the late 1980s. Denise ECS works on the 1985-era Chip RAM configuration.

Denise/Denise ECS's 1985 old design didn't exploit A3000's Ramsey 25 Mhz 32-bit memory controller 68030 bus improvements.

Meanwhile, the C65's 256-color display chipset on A500's Chip RAM-like bandwidth was completed in December 1990. LOL. The C65 project was cancelled by Commodore's chairman Irving Gould in 1991.

Quote:

Do you think that only the management had short minds? Were the engineers exempt?

I don't think so, and there are several proofs that ALL of them had their part on the failures.

Management: "I say jump, you say how high".

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 04:41 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 04:37 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 04:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 03:49 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 5:37:50
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3646
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Again? That's no true, as I've proven on another couple of articles about ECS.

Who are you?

One that at least read what people and, more important, UNDERSTAND.

What's not clear to you about the part that I've highlighted above?

And why you've cut one relevant part? I report here, AGAIN, for YOUR convenience:

Why the Amber chip was developed then? It costed. And the 384kB of memory which it used costed as well.

What's not clear to you that your engineers have wasted time and resources on a crappy scan doubler instead of enhancing the original chipset?

Could you please tell me how this fits with their ballyhooing "read my lips, no new chips"?
Quote:
You're not a Commodore senior engineer who battled against Commodore management.

Irrelevant, as I've PROVEN on my articles (which you haven't read or, even worse, understood).
Quote:
Again, the 1989-era A500 Rev 6A motherboard had a 2 MB Chip RAM reserve capability before the A3000's 1990 release.

With jumper setting change and four higher density RAM, A500 Rev 6A can use A3000's Agnus ECS for its 2 MB Chip RAM configuration.

Irrelevant. That's two more BITS added on the address registers and two more PINS used on Agnus. WOW, what a big change!!!
Quote:
ECS Denise's 4-color 640x480p productivity mode is obsolete in the late 1980s. Denise ECS works on the 1985-era Chip RAM configuration.

Irrelevant. The Amiga chipset lacked the possibility to program video modes which a 10 (TEN!) years old chip already offered. AND multisync monitors were common when ECS appeared.

The productivity mode is just the result of using such added programmability. Nothing special.
Quote:
Denise/Denise ECS's 1985 old design didn't exploit A3000's Ramsey 25 Mhz 32-bit memory controller 68030 bus improvements.

Here, again, you continue to show the complete lack of knowledge of how the Amiga CHIPSET (CHIP-SET) worked.

You're hopeless...

Ah, no: you're the dummy parrot that just google around seeking for technical information and reporting it on discussions where they SEEM to be relevant (TO YOU!). Which is GARBAGE, since you do NOT know neither UNDERSTAND how the technology that is under discussion works.
Quote:
Meanwhile, the C65's 256-color display chipset on A500's Chip RAM-like bandwidth was completed in December 1990. LOL.

Do you see? "read my lips, no new chips". Oh, yeah!
Quote:
The C65 project was cancelled by Commodore's chairman Irving Gould in 1991.

Too late. But we know how Commodore's management "worked"...
Quote:
Quote:

Do you think that only the management had short minds? Were the engineers exempt?

I don't think so, and there are several proofs that ALL of them had their part on the failures.

Management: "I say jump, you say how high".

Ah, yes: jump! And the (USELESS) Amber chip appeared. I see, I see...

Another jump! And the (USELESS) UltraRES registers & logic appeared on the ECS chipset. I see, I see...

And I can continue, eh! Ah, no, not needed: I've written TWO articles on the topic. Which you haven't read or understood...

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 6:30:55
#55 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 477
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Cesare,


38 years after the Amiga came to market you write essays to "proof on paper" that if they would have done this or that different in the Amiga layout it would have been better.,

This is like 38 after a super bowl to mathematically proof that if the Quarterback would have thrown more Hail Mary passes and if they would have been all catched the game would have scored more.



For sure this forum is super lucky to have such an Amiga expert like you able to make such great analyses:



How about we analyze this Amiga design here?


What do you think could we improved on this?



What is this picture?
This is a fake Amiga schematics that you and your friends published, right?
And you and your friend claimed this would be the new Amiga you did develop?

What could have been improved with your Amiga design?
Maybe we should also brainstorm about this?

First of all your Amiga design was 100% FAKE,
all the PCB layout on your website were fake/stolen from other websites,
and contrary to your and your friends claims this never worked.

And it could never have worked at all.
Because its all childish nonsense and everything in it is technically wrong.


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Hammer 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 6:38:27
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5272
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:

Why the Amber chip was developed then? It costed. And the 384kB of memory which it used costed as well.

The Amber chip also existed in Amiga 2000's A2320 card (https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=360)

To match VGA's 640x480p 16 colors, Amber solution delivered 640x512 16 color flicker-free as a workaround for "no new chips" directive.

Quote:

Irrelevant. That's two more BITS added on the address registers and two more PINS used on Agnus. WOW, what a big change!!

It's relevant when 2MB Chip RAM Agnus ECS is considered for 1989 A500 Rev 6A.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Feb-2024 at 06:49 AM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 8:03:40
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 477
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Cesare Di Mauro,

lets get this straight

I think everyone here feels sad for you, that you "make up" fake stories on your CV.

Probably everyone here feels sad for you, that you made a hoax a website about a fake Amiga you did invent.

For sure everyone here feels sad for you, that you give false interviews to Amiga newspaper about a your fake inventions on a nonexisting Amiga you did.



And now you did "proof" on paper how Amiga engineers could have done a better Amiga?

Really?
Wow!
Awesome!

Only 7 billion people on this planet could have done the same
This is no skill in saying "something" could have been done better in theory.

Everyone can say this about everything in the world.

Always!





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kolla 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 8:59:57
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Gunnar

Oh get off your high horse and stfu - you of all people is in no position to call out anyone about anything - clean up your own act first!

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Gunnar 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 10:31:24
#59 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 477
From: Unknown

@kolla

Cesare di Mauro, has a track record of online bashing the original Amiga inventors
Cesare di Mauro called them stupid, lazy, not creativity ...


Cesare Di Maudo brags here that he "proofed on paper" that the Amiga could have been done even better.

Well we all know that anything in the world could in theory be done better!
Cars could in theory made to go faster.
Electricity could have been invented 100 years earlier in theory.
And man could have landed in theory 10 years earlier on the moon.



Every person on this planet could make such claims.

These is no skill and no intelligence needed to say stuff like this.


Every game in the world could in theory be made better.
Every computer in the world could in theory be made better.

38 years later to write essays ... that if they would have added more memory or more colors to the Amiga, or whatever - and that then the Amiga would have been an even more awesome computer ...
and the original Amiga inventors are so terrible stupid that they not saw - what I say now 38 years later !


Seriously, what is wrong with you?


We all know that Cesare is a 100% fake person.
Who claims he had done stuff - that he never did,
And who spend hours on complaining about the real Amiga inventors.

I personally find this very tiring
How about you?

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saimo 
Re: Could lack of parallel bitplane writes crippled the Amiga?
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 13:06:47
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2453
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
I have read PED81C and its limitations are less than ideal. I preferred the Graffiti-Lisa workaround's 256-color VGA-like results.

You are comparing a software solution that gets AGA to work in chunky mode (without any CPU, Blitter or Copper assistance) against a third-party hardware add-on: that's a total disconnect.
On top of that, the OP wondered whether Commodore could have added a chunky mode to the Amiga chipset using a certain method, so third-party add-ons are totally OT.

Quote:
Limiting to 4-bit planes, games like Dread / Grind are Hollywood frame rate smooth on stock A1200. The 16-color artwork is good on Dread / Grind.

Commodore failed to provide 8-bit chunky pixels in a timely fashion or failed to create a good 1st party game studio that optimized (e.g. Dread example) for stock A1200. For Dread / Grind, Amiga's Blitter hardware was used to assist with C2P conversion.

Commodore promoted the late 16-bit gaming experience (e.g. SNES) with the so-called "32-bit" A1200 and CD32. Commodore UK's CPU-accelerated A1200 bundle attempt was important to distance A1200 from SNES's late 16-bit gaming experience.

It seems Commodore wasn't aware of Blitter's C2P assist since they designed Akiko's C2P.

Full 32-bit gaming PCs avoided being steamrolled by SNES with PC's "32-bit" Doom's fake 3D experience. IndyCar Racing and Star Wars X-Wing were also released in 1993. Heretic, Wing Commander 3, and Doom 2 were released in 1994. 32-bit gaming PC has several "3D" games that are out of reach of 1993-1994 era SNES.

SNES's Doom SuperFX2 port was released on September 1, 1995, which at this point, it's a PlayStation vs Pentium class PC battle. The PC market has been building the classic Pentium install base since 1993 and it was ready to stand its ground against PlayStation's Q4 1995 western market release.

Nintendo has excellent 1st party studio games despite inferior SNES and Switch hardware when compared to other hardware competition.

Except for the Akiko's C2P mention, which is somewhat related to the topic, this is all OT junk - and therefore goes into the trashcan.

Last edited by saimo on 29-Feb-2024 at 01:09 PM.

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