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Poll : What should happen to Amiga hardware?
Develop cheap 68k SoC for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby
Develop expensive PPC SoC for desktop, laptop
POWER for desktop AmigaOS (no SMP or 64 bit addressing)
POWER for desktop with redesigned & incompatible AmigaOS
No more embarrassing Amiga hardware!
No opinion or pancakes
 
PosterThread
matthey 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 19-Jun-2020 22:49:42
#21 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 717
From: Kansas

Quote:

BigD wrote:
Let's just wait and see what the A1222 can do for us and reassess the way forward at that point. ACube are helping to design a PPC laptop that might be a AmigaOS port candidate. However, it is the legal situation that is holding everything back IMHO. The hardware direction is irrelevant if we can't all work together to forge some sort of niche computer ecosystem.


A-EON hardware after Tabor should already be in at least the planning stage, if there is to be any more hardware. The legal situation is a problem with what looks like Hyperion trying to stall and wait out adversaries. Hyperion doesn't seem to realize they could end up with everything only to have it turn to dust in their clinched fist.

Quote:

P.S. Has anyone here got a V1200 Vampire Board? I know the cottage that makes them has smoke coming out of the chimney but are they out there in the wild now and are people happy with them? Can native screen modes be displayed over HDMI yet?


Native screens from the Vampire accelerator HDMI are a hack. Amiga custom chip functionality is transferred to the Vampire SAGA custom chips. How do I know? I was the guy who suggested RTG for the Vampire accelerators as well as hijacking custom chip functionality. We weren't sure it was possible then so it was just a value added feature if possible. Note, this is not a problem for the standalone Vampire where SAGA is used as the default Amiga custom chips.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 19-Jun-2020 23:09:35
#22 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@matthey

Your Poll is mostly incomplete and it does not keeps count of the fact Amiga needs first to exit from the 32 bit abyss in which it is stagnating.

We need a 64 bit environment with a modern Kernel and it has no importance if ARM, Intel X86 or PowerPC.

Linux is good but mostly un-amigaish environment and it is not a solution.

It is two years I am proposing a co-operation with the guys at BeOS/Haiku in order to reuse their Kernel in Amiga and wrapping Amiga APIs, AmigaOS, Amiga GUI, and Our filesystems around BeOS/Haiku Kernel the same way that Apple did with Mach Kernel and MacOS environment, creating MacOS X.

BeOS/Haiku is available both in PowerPC and IntelX86 versions. With a synergy of all joint forces of developers and users we can realize a new modern AmigaOS in 2 years circa.

I hope Trevor Dickinson and other Amiga related investors, firms, developers could read my comment and starting making necessary steps to contact Beos/Haiku developers and organize a meeting with them in order to engage a profitable cooperation.

BeOS/Haiku have the kernel.

Amiga has an userbase that (despite shrinking thru aging) is 20 or 30 times larger than BeOS userbase.

Both environments need each other and their cooperation can boost a return of former users or attract new users.

Last edited by Raffaele on 19-Jun-2020 at 11:11 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 19-Jun-2020 23:20:36
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@matthey

Quote:


A-EON hardware after Tabor should already be in at least the planning stage, if there is to be any more hardware. The legal situation is a problem with what looks like Hyperion trying to stall and wait out adversaries. Hyperion doesn't seem to realize they could end up with everything only to have it turn to dust in their clinched fist.



In the meanwhile the boys at https://www.powerpc-notebook.org are close (only 5400 Euro left) in their crowdfunding from realizing first 5 prototypes of PowerPC Laptop computer in cooperation with ACube Systems.

Their PCB design is complete. They need only to build the solid silicon.

Their computer design project is completely open source hardware and they will provide for free CAD/OrCAD Gerber Files and drivers for any institution, firm, industry, manufacturer, university that will desire to replicate, or built or improve this PPC computer despite of the Operating System that will run on their hardware.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Rob 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 1:05:54
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5910
From: S.Wales

@Raffaele

Quote:
Their PCB design is complete. They need only to build the solid silicon.


The electrical schematics are done. The current campaign is for the PCB design and there is only 10 days left.

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BigD 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 1:41:06
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5320
From: UK

@Rob



The fate PPC consumer electronics hangs in the balance!

... well no that actually ended when Apple switched to Intel in 2006

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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redfox 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 2:41:12
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1728
From: Canada

@matthey
@ferrels

Quote:
This is the captain who decides to stoically go down with his ship attitude.


Not really. I wish that there was more choice for new hardware for OS4.

I own an ancient A2000HD with AmigaOS 3.1
and a MicroA1 with AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition Update 1

Life and family changed my priorities over the years. I missed out on the SAM systems and the AmigaOne X1000. Now that I can actually afford to purchase an X5000, I honestly cannot justify the cost. And, yes, the continuous litigation activities has had its toll on me too.

Very simply, my wife and I have other interests now.

I still enjoy using my two Amiga systems, as well as my QNX system,
AROS AspireOS, my old Z80 system and homebrew stuff.

---
redfox

Last edited by redfox on 20-Jun-2020 at 03:37 AM.
Last edited by redfox on 20-Jun-2020 at 02:46 AM.
Last edited by redfox on 20-Jun-2020 at 02:44 AM.

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Fl@sh 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 4:15:51
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2004
Posts: 157
From: Napoli - Italy

@Raffaele

So you give us great news about open ppc laptop!
I hope remaining funds can be filled by some amiga company prior the campaign end.
Everyone will be able to replicate and improve it and it could be a base on a cheap PowerPC modern laptop to run Linux and maybe some amiga like os.

ExecSG will be the new kernel foundation and all new applications will be based on this, so maybe the haiku/Beos kernel could not be involved for a more modern AmigaOS.
[

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Trekiej 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 4:38:10
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2006
Posts: 780
From: Unknown

@matthey

Cool deal.

I know that there are plenty of CPU to target a port.
An idea that I would like to suggest is to make a Virtual CPU for WinUae 64 bit or even winuae 32b bit and then take that to and FPGA and then to an ASIC.

I am back to the Idea of bringing the price down to keep things affordable even if the power of the SOC, etc. is not as powerful as todays desktops. Hopefully they are powerful enough to keep up with daily tasks.

_________________
John 3:16

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 7:07:44
#29 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 261
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@Raffaele

Quote:


It is two years I am proposing a co-operation with the guys at BeOS/Haiku in order to reuse their Kernel in Amiga and wrapping Amiga APIs, AmigaOS, Amiga GUI, and Our filesystems around BeOS/Haiku Kernel.

I hope Trevor Dickinson and other Amiga related investors, firms, developers could read my comment and starting making necessary steps to contact Beos/Haiku developers and organize a meeting with them in order to engage a profitable cooperation.




It's almost certain: Trevor Dickinson, investors, firms (FIRMS!) and developers, all will read your dazzling comment and, suddenly inspired and elightened by the finely detailed plan you're presenting, they'll gather in a circle and holding hands will begin working on the bright future of Amiga!


VVVVVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR


MRJM

_________________
I HAVE ABS OF STEEL

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 9:35:57
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9105
From: Unknown

@matthey

Amithlon-like solution with fast PowerPC CPU emulation. Problem solved once and for all.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 10:55:32
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 597
From: Unknown

@matthey

Excuse me, but some points of your poll seems irritating and missleading

Quote:

Develop cheap 68k SoC for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby


There are cheap 68k SoCs for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby, like the DragonBall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_DragonBall

Most here never ever used them, after seeing so much people wanting them I believe they (and you) don't really know about SoCs.

Quote:

Develop expensive PPC SoC for desktop, laptop


There are expensive PPC SoCs some might be usable for desktop, laptop. I'm confused how much people wanting them I believe they (and you) don't really know about SoCs.

Quote:

POWER for desktop with redesigned & incompatible AmigaOS 30 % 30 % (26)



You can have an incompatible AmigaOS for less the price without POWER

Quote:

No more embarrassing Amiga hardware! 12 % 12 % (11)


This might be the best option, most Amiga Users voted for this and left the Amiga community years ago.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 20-Jun-2020 at 03:15 PM.

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 15:50:36
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@Rob

As long as I remember this campaign is for the first 5 prototypes (PCB making + PCB case coupling)...

Yes it remains 10 days and still 5400 € to collect. I am helping them trying to find on internet some angel investors.

In the meanwhile the Amigans who believe in this project can contribute donating if they want to...

Last edited by Raffaele on 20-Jun-2020 at 03:58 PM.

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 15:52:53
#33 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Always Panzer VOOOOOR!

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Raffaele 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 15:57:18
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Dec-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Naples, Italy

@Trekiej

Quote:


I am back to the Idea of bringing the price down to keep things affordable even if the power of the SOC, etc. is not as powerful as todays desktops. Hopefully they are powerful enough to keep up with daily tasks.


@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:

There are expensive PPC SoCs some might be usable for desktop, laptop. I'm confused how much people wanting them I believe they (and you) don't really know about SoCs.


There is also this interesting project: Libre SoC

https://libre-soc.org/

Guys of PowerPC Notebook project have a partnership with them too...

_________________
"When the Amiga came out, everyone [at Apple] was scared as hell." (J.L. Gassée, former CEO of Apple France and chief of devs of Mac II-fx, interviewed by Amazing Computing, Nov 1996).

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Rose 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 16:07:34
#35 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 699
From: Unknown

@Raffaele

Quote:
As long as I remember this campaign is for the first 5 prototypes (PCB making + PCB case coupling)...





You remember wrong.


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bison 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 16:40:26
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1603
From: N-Space

@matthey

Upon finishing my pancakes and reflecting deeply on the situation, I decided to go with option #7, RPi4.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 18:37:18
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9935
From: Greensborough, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
Already the X1000 to the X5000 lost the VMX/Altivec SIMD unit and then the Tabor lost the FPU.


The X1000 is the last in that line that actually has AltiVec.

Quote:
Unpopular CPUs like in the Tabor are less likely to be available for long or supported as can be seen by the dropping of support in GCC.


And even the dropping by Freescale who put back a normal FPU in later models.

Quote:
If the plan is simply to switch to commodity hardware after PPC, then there will be little need for A-EON or any of the retailers like Amiga on the Lake.


I don't think so. AEON still would need to take care of drivers and other items they sell. Hardware retailers can still sell hardware.

Quote:
Hyperion or Cloanto would hope to recover the cost of porting AmigaOS to another architecture back by selling the OS, probably online.


I don't think Cloanto would want to port it. But just because it was ported to another arch doesn't mean compatible computers will be free or cheap to buy. There's no way they could support any board. Even limiting them to support cards. I think they would still need boards produced. x86 could be hard as people would compare it to an off the shelf motherboard with the new complaint that exactly like this one in the local shop, with the same CPU, but double the price! With ARM it remains like it is now, comparing it to a cheaper and more powerful PC, then throwing hands in air with no point. Same argument, different CPU.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 20-Jun-2020 23:56:43
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 717
From: Kansas

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
Excuse me, but some points of your poll seems irritating and missleading.

There are cheap 68k SoCs for embedded, toys/games, retro, hobby, like the DragonBall
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freescale_DragonBall

Most here never ever used them, after seeing so much people wanting them I believe they (and you) don't really know about SoCs.


DragonBall chips have not been manufactured by Freescale for a long time. There are no actively supplied and supported 68k products from Freescale.

https://www.nxp.com/products/product-information/product-longevity:PRDCT_LONGEVITY_HM#products1

The QorIQ P5020 used in the AmigaOne X5000 supply guarantee is expiring this month and the newer Tabor QorIQ P1022 only has about another year.

ACube announced a MiniMig+ with DragonBall SuperVZ MC68SZ328 but the chips were likely from old stock or Chinese desoldered recoveries from end products. DragonBall was 68000 compatible only and the SoC is ancient and primitive. It's a downgrade for anyone using a 68020 or higher.

Quote:

There are expensive PPC SoCs some might be usable for desktop, laptop. I'm confused how much people wanting them I believe they (and you) don't really know about SoCs.


A-Eon has been using PPC SoCs. The AmigaOne X1000 PWRficient 1682M SoC is a well designed SoC which is flexible enough, powerful enough and energy efficient enough to be used for embedded and low end desktop/laptop use. It is a nice mid performance general purpose design although it was never clocked up to what it was capable of. The AmigaOne X5000 Freescale QorIQ P5020 is also a flexible SoC but more specialized for embedded communications use. The Tabor QorIQ P1022 SoC is also for communications but even more specialized and cut down to lower costs and energy use for the most common communications use or a particular large customer.

There are still PPC SoCs available although the selection is falling as most are EOL and longevity guarantees are expiring so the old chip may become unavailable for a new board. Performance is generally limited, especially single core performance, as energy efficient embedded designs usually choose more cores with a lower clock instead of boosting single core performance which is preferred for the desktop. A custom SoC would allow to select the cores, caches, IO support (which works with the DMA controller to lower IO overhead) and would allow for a selection of GPUs (not common with PPC SoCs but becoming more common with ARM SoCs). Everything fits together with the desired pieces. It may be possible to allow SMP without breaking compatibility although it may be more difficult and less efficient to stop other cores where most PPC cores do memory reads and writes OoO.

Quote:

You can have an incompatible AmigaOS for less the price without POWER


AROS on ARM and x86_64?

Last edited by matthey on 20-Jun-2020 at 11:58 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 1:07:15
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 717
From: Kansas

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
The X1000 is the last in that line that actually has AltiVec.


Apple bought P.A. Semi and ended the PWRficient line. PWRficient was the last completely new PPC design and the last hope for PPC. The last Freescale designs were mostly based on old designs although some did have AltiVec. There are even QorIQ chips with PPC cores using Altivec. I don't know if they were unavailable when the X5000 was designed, deemed too expensive or something else.

Quote:

And even the dropping by Freescale who put back a normal FPU in later models.


Motorola/Freescale/NXP can't blame anyone but themselves again. It is easier to make SoCs with ready made ARM cores now. No more blunders.

Quote:

I don't think so. AEON still would need to take care of drivers and other items they sell. Hardware retailers can still sell hardware.


A-EON may have been responsible for writing drivers for their own hardware. With commodity hardware, that responsibility falls back to Hyperion. Amiga stores could try to survive in commodity land but margins are likely razer thin and that is with buying in huge quantities. Maybe they could sell Amiga stickers, clothing and an Amiga styled case for that Raspberry Pi but is that enough to survive?

Quote:

I don't think Cloanto would want to port it. But just because it was ported to another arch doesn't mean compatible computers will be free or cheap to buy. There's no way they could support any board. Even limiting them to support cards. I think they would still need boards produced. x86 could be hard as people would compare it to an off the shelf motherboard with the new complaint that exactly like this one in the local shop, with the same CPU, but double the price! With ARM it remains like it is now, comparing it to a cheaper and more powerful PC, then throwing hands in air with no point. Same argument, different CPU.


Cloanto would have to change their philosophy about the Amiga to port AmigaOS to other architectures. Their current philosophy is to emulate the Amiga on other architectures. They may be open to doing more with AmigaOS now but I don't think porting to cheap hardware will pay for the cost of the port especially considering the loss of software compatibility. It is better to bring cheap hardware to the AmigaOS. Emulation is the easiest way to do it but not the most efficient.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Amiga hardware poll
Posted on 21-Jun-2020 3:51:34
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1897
From: Australia

@matthey

Wow.
Seriously?
I know you're not an idiot, yet this poll exists........ it's either a paradox, or intentional.

Those of us with 3 figure IQs get the actual point to your poll.
Those without continue to have delusional ideas..... like using Haiku kernel with zero ideas what that actually means.

Seriously, how is it not all painfully obvious after all these years? Different solutions suit different people better. If they didnt this sort of stupid poll wouldnt occur time, time, and time again.

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