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      /  Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
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amigang 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 20:14:23
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1682
From: Cheshire, England

@A1200

Wow, talk about not being self aware a1200. Your post has hardly added to the topic.

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OneTimer1 
RPG Maker for AmigaOIDs
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 20:44:22
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 696
From: Unknown

@tohe

Quote:

tohe wrote:

Actually you can play (at least some) of the games made with RPG Maker - not on 68k Amiga, but 'Amiga NG' like OS4 and MorphOS, here's the link for EasyRPG player - at least some of the games I tried did work:

http://bszili.morphos.me/


Thank you, I might have forgotten about the RPG Player

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

... you also need ability make a game, without that the Amiga system, is not going to be the tool of choice.


That's a sad fact, when you saw what some people could archive with this program. After playing DragonQuest on my NDS and remembering Ultima I really remembered how I missed such games on the Amiga.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 20:57:33
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 696
From: Unknown


Quote:

matthey wrote:

None of the current FPGA systems will take the 68k Amiga anywhere. They can barely surpass the real hardware from the '90s and only keep the Amiga platform from dying faster.


True, even a Vampire V4 can't compete with a cheap RasPI or low cost AMD64 laptops.

That's why we wanted to change to modern CPUs back in the last millennium, but even AROS on a Rhyzen5 could not make this single task OS competitive to Linux or Windows.

And retro only means, playing old games on hardware not better than back in the time when this games where created.

Edit:
Typos and bad grammar.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 03-Jul-2021 at 07:25 AM.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 21:57:15
#44 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 935
From: Unknown

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
@A1200

Wow, talk about not being self aware a1200. Your post has hardly added to the topic.



Well being on subject, name amiga productivity software that is better than what's currently available for free? ( I mean really better not "I have been using this for 30 years so UI is great")

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amigang 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 23:46:14
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1682
From: Cheshire, England

@Rose

Nothing, and a lot.

You see it depends on what your talking about and what interest people.

Seen iOS / iPad file management, directory opus puts it to shame!

Kids might want to lean how classic game where made and considering Amiga was used to make a lot of games they may want to check it out.

Dpaint and PPaint are still grate gfx programs for 2d classic graphics, yes there hundreds of free / newer ones but they hold up surprisingly well considering there age. Plus the dads mights remember the programs and show them to their kids.

The success of c64 mini, speccy next, Atari consoles and nes mini coming back on the market is not because there better at anything it’s largely nostalgic, but kids have played with them as some are interested in the past and parents have introduced it to them.

I feel an Amiga version of the above product could offer more as quiet simple Amiga could do more than most of these system currently on offer.

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A1200 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 2-Jul-2021 23:57:05
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3086
From: Westhall, UK

@BigD

Don't mind me I am just bored of it all. Everything that could be said about Amiga has been said.

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kolla 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 7:11:42
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1869
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

kolla Quote:

So, since you keep bringing this up... do YOU have one? And why not? Why can't all Amiga developers such as yourself just jump straight onto the cheap alternatives when they DO show up, and actually make something happen?


I was interested but also hesitant.


Why? For that price you we were still histitant?!

Quote:

The FPGA is small and it makes it difficult to support AGA, better monitor support, enhancements and a 68020 core with a descent performance.


While only doing ECS, and laced modes not coming out well on the HDMI, the CPU core is quite decent in terms of performance. Its only problem currently is the noone has kept it up to shape with last few years tg68 developments, so it is a bit behind.

Quote:

It is a nice open hardware FPGA experimenter's board but it is cramped and primitive for Amiga use and development. The price is good, especially considering the lack of mass production, but the performance/price and user experience could be better.


But the FleaFPGA is just one - we also have the MiST, a good handful of MiST clones, and the MiSTer. They offer AGA, more RAM, faster CPU cores, RTG graphics and even Akiko C2P implementations. And all this is open source hardware.

Quote:
For a one man product and support, it is impressive but that is part of the problem. We have all these FPGA projects using different FPGA brands and sizes and splitting the market


Splitting the market? What BS comment is that? The goal with all of them are to run the exact same software - the only market you can hope for.

Quote:
so mass production is not possible and support is more difficult.


Newsflash, and I know this is traumatic for you - the masses are not interested! The masses have software emulation that is very much capable for their "needs".

Quote:
The other problem is lack of performance/price of an FPGA CPU core. There is plenty of cheap low performance 68k hardware but Amiga users want 68k performance and we need it for a more modern experience like using a browser.


Such users don't GET Amiga - those who GET Amiga *KNOW* that higher performance alone does NOT give you "modern experience", there is a lot more lacking, and not just in hardware.

Quote:
FPGA CPU and GPU cores result in prices which are too expensive to attract non-Amiga users and even most Amiga users. Emulation will always be around but it is just a sign that the platform is dead.


Why would we WANT to attract non-Amiga users? For what purpose? So that they can point out for us everything that is wrong about Amiga, things we have been painfully aware of for decades already?

Quote:

kolla Quote:

There are plenty of affordable FPGA systems that run 68k Amiga cores now, so what are you waiting for?

None of the current FPGA systems will take the 68k Amiga anywhere.


They already do take 68k Amiga to places it hasn't been before, just dreaming about some ASIC 68k and posting on forums is what takes Amiga nowhere.

Quote:
They can barely surpass the real hardware from the '90s and only keep the Amiga platform from dying faster.


But they surpass the real hardware on other factors, such as price, power consumption, size, flexibility and compatibility. And performance is not bad.

I have "the ultimate" CD32 from back in the days, SX32Pro with 50MHz 030+882 and 32MB RAM - how does Doom compare on it vs on the MiST do you think?

Quote:

kolla Quote:

And.. in my view, there are very few people left even within the so called community, even among OS developers, that really GET the Amiga, most of those who really do GET it have moved on.


True but most are still around and many still have a soft spot for the Amiga even though the current attempts to revive it have been embarrassing.


I don't know what you mean, I don't know of any attempts to revive Amiga.

Quote:
I found people with a soft spot for the 68k as well. Nostalgia can take a product far if it is done right, without shortcuts and paying homage to the philosophy and heritage.


Who do you think are behind all the FPGA systems and emulators?
Right, exactly those with a soft spot for 68k! Those who GET it.

Quote:
Make it cheap enough to sell as a toy and then surprise them with what it can do.


This already exists, but sadly (for you), it isn't 68k, and it isn't Amiga.

Last edited by kolla on 03-Jul-2021 at 07:13 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 8:56:57
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1952
From: Australia

In some ways they'd get it more than those who expect it to ever be more than it is.
Theyre not blinded by the past. They see it for what it is.
They see how archaic it is, how limited it is, how badly most of its software has dated, etc.

Nostalgia and being in the middle of something for decades can blind people to reality.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 9:31:41
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5958
From: UK

@fishy_fis

…and the reality is…

…that Amiga has no value? Have you seen what Pixel Vixen can achieve using HAM mode animation on Deluxe Paint IV?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_DdWBepZSDM

This is inspiring stuff and plays to the Amiga’s ‘limitations’!

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fishy_fis 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 9:50:27
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1952
From: Australia

@BigD

Fun to work with such restrictions, sure.
I work with those restrictions heck of a lot more with the Amiga than you. Graphics, code and audio work, so its kind of odd taking that stance with me.
Restrictions can also be artificially applied, so Amiga offers nothing vs the mainstream anyway.

And to answer your question, other than a good fun hobby the Amiga does have no value.

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amigang 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 11:11:48
#51 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1682
From: Cheshire, England

@kolla

Quote:
Splitting the market? What BS comment is that? The goal with all of them are to run the exact same software - the only market you can hope for.


I think he on about splitting the hardware sale maybe, as if you have a mister, I doubt your get a vampire, or another fpga hardware product. If there was only one definite choice then they could maybe really improve support around one fpga and maybe even get costs down if a bigger production run could be made.

Again there are so many choices for the Amiga market it’s kinda nuts, just on the ng scene we got amigaos4, morphos, aros. But it splits the market slightly. Then classic scene we got real classic Amiga, a500 remake, misters, vampire v4, Armiga, pistorm, pi systems, etc. Then we got amigaos 3.2 / 68k aros / amikit / emulation etc again resource get split, the goal for all these products are kinda the same (best amiga experience you can have) but also all slightly different ideas of what that should be Imagine if it was all one product that we could all get behind and alll developers work on one product.

For me the last thing missing in the Amiga market is a product that gets to Amazon / Walmart like c64 mini did, getting a bigger more mass produce amiga setup that is hell even advertised outside of the Amiga world, I think is the next step.

Last edited by amigang on 03-Jul-2021 at 11:13 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 11:38:02
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1869
From: Trondheim, Norway

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
@kolla

Quote:
Splitting the market? What BS comment is that? The goal with all of them are to run the exact same software - the only market you can hope for.


I think he on about splitting the hardware sale maybe, as if you have a mister, I doubt your get a vampire, or another fpga hardware product.


If you have MiSTer, chances are high that you also have a few other Minimig systems around. All the available FPGA Amiga systems share the same heritage, Minimig. FPGA Arcade was on its own for a while, but has joined the fold. The only "splitters" here are the Vampire/Apollo Core teams, and even they apparently have MiST and MiSTer systems among them.

Quote:
If there was only one definite choice then they could maybe really improve support around one fpga and maybe even get costs down if a bigger production run could be made.


"one FPGA"?
Do you know how many FPGAs the Vampire systems have been through now? :)

Quote:
Then classic scene we got real classic Amiga, a500 remake, misters, vampire v4, Armiga, pistorm, pi systems, etc.


All capable of running the same OSes and software.

Quote:
Then we got amigaos 3.2 / 68k aros / amikit / emulation etc again resource get split


"emulation" belong up there along with the hardware.

As for AROS/68k vs AmigaOS, that's the result of closed source AmigaOS and nothing else.

Quote:
the goal for all these products are kinda the same (best amiga experience you can have) but also all slightly different ideas of what that should be Imagine if it was all one product that we could all get behind and alll developers work on one product.


Well, some developers prefer the code to be "their" baby, and don't allow all devs to work with them. And if they don't get it their way, they throw a fit and threaten to leave... :)

Quote:
For me the last thing missing in the Amiga market is a product that gets to Amazon / Walmart like c64 mini did, getting a bigger more mass produce amiga setup that is hell even advertised outside of the Amiga world, I think is the next step.


So you want an ARM based device built into a mini A500 case, running Linux and an emulator and a nice front-end for launching old games. And you say this is what the masses want?

Is that what Matthey wants, you think? :)

Last edited by kolla on 03-Jul-2021 at 11:40 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 03-Jul-2021 at 11:39 AM.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 13:47:24
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5958
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
let me post this, image it represents the Amiga community, a old man looking down on his own shoes, half blind, with no connection the current times, when Amiga community wont compare Amiga to PC’s, they talk about 386 a 486’s, in my time we had 512K ram , 7Mhz is all you need


386, 486 and Pentium spec PCs are a fair comparison, that’s why we talk about them! Our connection to current times is the Amiga is still relevant to us, our families and our friends. We can take the best of what’s new and combine it with the best of the past and extrapolate forward those lessons from simpler less distracting times when the OSes could be understood in their entirety by one person. Custom chips and specific hardware solutions to problems will always be more interesting than raw clock speed, or number of threads running concurrently or the latest important GPU stat; number of shaders! As the demo scene provided; working under a hardware limitation brings out the best in human endeavour and ingenuity!

Last edited by BigD on 03-Jul-2021 at 01:52 PM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 16:32:06
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1952
From: Australia

@BigD

Exactly what do you think gpus are?
They're custom hardware/custom chips.
Also volume of shaders is faaaar from the "latest important gpu stat".
Time, time and time again you do nothing but demonstrate your cluelessness, and in an opinionated way.
Nothing wrong with opinions, but it gets tiring when those opinions are based around nonsense.
You've been told this by many people, many times, but it doesn't deter you or encourage you to try to learn before you start spewing crap again.
Its freaking weird.

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davidf215 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 16:57:25
#55 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2010
Posts: 93
From: Texas

@BigD

Indeed the Amiga can provide gaming entertainment for kids. There are lots of Amiga games from which to choose. It’s good but also not so good as a lot of the games have old graphics.

The computer industry is highly competitive with mainline systems from Microsoft, Apple, iOS, Android, Linux. Add to the mainline all the smaller systems such as AIX, Amiga, Aros, HP UX, MorphOS, Haiku, ReactOS, BSD, Solaris, etc, etc. People have several systems to work with and to experiment with. One advantage of the Amiga to the smaller, other niche systems is that it already has a lot of software.

Like @A1200 posted, “Everything that could be said about Amiga has been said.” And that being that Commodore failed in its marketing efforts. But Commodore isn’t alone. Be, Inc. tried to get into the market with the BeOS, but they didn’t succeed either at entering into the mainline. It’s an extremely challenging proposition to go from niche to mainline. Money spent on lawyers fighting over Amiga technologies could be better spent on paying software developers and marketing. The best we have now is sharing with family and friends the Amiga software we like and sharing images, animations, and software we create on our Amigas.

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BigD 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 17:43:39
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5958
From: UK

@davidf215

Quote:
Money spent on lawyers fighting over Amiga technologies could be better spent on paying software developers and marketing. The best we have now is sharing with family and friends the Amiga software we like and sharing images, animations, and software we create on our Amigas.


I totally agree! Keep the party going!

@fishy_fis

I’m sure you agree too but seem to want me to learn more about modern GPUs before I’m allowed to comment further!

My main point was programming / animating on a simple system like the Amiga and learning from community legends like Pixel Vixen and the MetroSiege boys is a lot more conducive to young coders / artists being inspired than speaking about shaders, modern graphics cards or speed tests IMHO! Why do I need to be Thomas Richter to comment on that!

Last edited by BigD on 03-Jul-2021 at 05:44 PM.

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davidf215 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 3-Jul-2021 23:40:53
#57 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2010
Posts: 93
From: Texas

@amigang
Quote:
For me the last thing missing in the Amiga market is a product that gets to Amazon / Walmart like c64 mini did, getting a bigger more mass produce amiga setup that is hell even advertised outside of the Amiga world, I think is the next step.

There’s too much money and effort tied up in lawsuits at this moment that could be better allocated in this manner. Something as simple as relabeling a generically manufactured smartphone with the Amiga brand would probably trigger a lawsuit.

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matthey 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 4-Jul-2021 2:42:04
#58 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1229
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

Why? For that price you we were still hesitant?!


Yes. I don't need hardware that doesn't fulfill my desires no matter how cheap it is. I could spend the money to buy better hardware. Multiple cheap weak hardwares can not replace a stronger hardware. Amiga 68k users have plenty of 68000-68030 hardware already. Performance seems to be more important than price but both are important.

kolla Quote:

While only doing ECS, and laced modes not coming out well on the HDMI, the CPU core is quite decent in terms of performance. Its only problem currently is the noone has kept it up to shape with last few years tg68 developments, so it is a bit behind.


Each hardware and each FPGA requires development of each update. Some FPGAs are too small like this one requiring even more work. Why reinvent an inferior and higher priced wheel over and over again instead of working together to make a superior and lower priced wheel everyone can use?

kolla Quote:

But the FleaFPGA is just one - we also have the MiST, a good handful of MiST clones, and the MiSTer. They offer AGA, more RAM, faster CPU cores, RTG graphics and even Akiko C2P implementations. And all this is open source hardware.


It's cool hardware but the performance/price is still lacking primarily due to FPGA limitations due to cost. There is lots of duplicate development wasting resources too.

kolla Quote:

Splitting the market? What BS comment is that? The goal with all of them are to run the exact same software - the only market you can hope for.


There are at least 3 CPU cores and 3 Amiga chipset cores being used in FPGA hardware. How many do we need? Do you think the different AmigaOS flavors are helping the Amiga market instead of splitting it too?

kolla Quote:

Newsflash, and I know this is traumatic for you - the masses are not interested! The masses have software emulation that is very much capable for their "needs".


Why is the Raspberry Pi selling millions of units when higher performance hardware could be emulated?

kolla Quote:

Such users don't GET Amiga - those who GET Amiga *KNOW* that higher performance alone does NOT give you "modern experience", there is a lot more lacking, and not just in hardware.


The AmigaOS feels surprisingly modern under "higher performance" UAE emulation. It doesn't support SMP but it is fast enough for most purposes that it doesn't need it. The Amiga is behind in modern software but it does have more games than the Raspberry Pi. There is no support without mass produced real hardware and the Amiga can still do some pretty cool computing on low end hardware.

kolla Quote:

Why would we WANT to attract non-Amiga users? For what purpose? So that they can point out for us everything that is wrong about Amiga, things we have been painfully aware of for decades already?


The Amiga needs non-Amiga users to expand the market for mass production and software development support. There are not many expectations for low priced hardware and it requires less capital to create making it a good place to start. Users are more likely to think about how much they can do without running out of memory rather than what they could do with another CPU core.

kolla Quote:

They already do take 68k Amiga to places it hasn't been before, just dreaming about some ASIC 68k and posting on forums is what takes Amiga nowhere.


FPGA hardware has barely surpassed the original hardware in performance and separately in price but not in performance/price when adjusted for inflation. Technology has improved so we could produce an enhanced single chip Amiga with CPU (ASIC SoC) for the price of a beer yet we ignore it. The Amiga has always been about dreams and often missed opportunities of which this could be another. I see opportunities and make proposals. We know the current niche market AmigaOne hardware hasn't been expanding the Amiga market and the PPC architecture is dead. The Amiga 68k market is the healthiest Amiga market and the 68k is the soul of the Amiga so an ASIC is worth considering before spending big to port the Amiga to another architecture.

kolla Quote:

But they surpass the real hardware on other factors, such as price, power consumption, size, flexibility and compatibility. And performance is not bad.


Price on the low end, yes. Power consumption, yes. Size, yes. Flexibility, yes. Compatibility, tie. Performance is good for the low end and poor for the high end. There is a lot to like about the FPGA hardware. The cheaper FPGAs give competitive low end hardware. This is true for embedded hardware also. If performance is desired, an ASIC is required which can also lower the price and power. The FPGA is the winner for flexibility.

kolla Quote:

I have "the ultimate" CD32 from back in the days, SX32Pro with 50MHz 030+882 and 32MB RAM - how does Doom compare on it vs on the MiST do you think?


It's probably pretty close but with faster memory everywhere and perhaps Akiko support, I wouldn't be surprised if the MiST can play Doom a little better. How does Quake play on the MiST though? No room in the FPGA for an FPU?

kolla Quote:

So you want an ARM based device built into a mini A500 case, running Linux and an emulator and a nice front-end for launching old games. And you say this is what the masses want?

Is that what Matthey wants, you think? :)


ARM has convenience but no superiority when making an ASIC compared to a 68k SoC. The convenience is payed for with royalties which hinders competitiveness with mass production. Making an Amiga emulator on low cost ARM hardware would no doubt be cheap but it requires more resources hindering competitiveness and is nothing to build on. Response times can be worse too. The new NeoGeo MVSX arcade table top has about double the response time of the original 68k NeoGeo hardware for example. Most people consider this to be acceptable and it looks like a good product but it could be better. Maybe they would use a 68k SoC if one was available and avoid the input latency. Maybe an Amiga 40 board like I proposed would do the job. Maybe others would make their own arcade cabinets too. Like the Raspberry Pi, make it cheap and open up a world of possibilities. That is what the Amiga was about too and emulation doesn't cut it, especially when a real 68k wouldn't cost much more if mass produced and should attract more software and development support.

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kolla 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 4-Jul-2021 8:40:16
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1869
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

Why is the Raspberry Pi selling millions of units when higher performance hardware could be emulated?


Becaue it is tiny, cheap, use little power, is versatile, fairly open, and most important of all - it runs Linux.

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Rose 
Re: Do the next generation GET the Amiga?
Posted on 4-Jul-2021 10:53:21
#60 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 935
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@matthey

Quote:

Why is the Raspberry Pi selling millions of units when higher performance hardware could be emulated?


Becaue it is tiny, cheap, use little power, is versatile, fairly open, and most important of all - it runs Linux.



And even more importantly, it exists unlike superior fantasy asic which is rambled about in every second thread.

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