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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 19:45:08
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

jacadcaps Quote:

WebKit is quite minimalist on its own. You can even strip it to reduce the binary size quite a bit. That will only give you minimalist browsing experience though - forget fb, twitter, instagram, most news websites, etc, etc. It's the websites that require large amounts of RAM, not WebKit itself. Even with no JavaScript JIT, a 2MB script is 2MB RAM + all of the stuff it explicitly allocates or downloads. You can remove features, but you need to be aware that you'll be removing websites that way too.


Yes, HTML rendering is not the problem although WebKit is written in C++ which means the engine is slower on lower performance hardware (do to more indirect branches and less efficient cache usage) and uses significantly more memory than a C rendering engine (most old Amiga browsers and some more modern lightweight browser engines like in NetSurf). Certainly the GUI around WebKit can be eliminated with significant savings. A good example is Surf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surf_(web_browser)

An Amiga HTML datatype using WebKit similarly wouldn't be too excessive and may run on high end 68k Amigas provided development tools could be enhanced to allow it to compile.

Trying to make the open source Chrome/Chromium usable and full featured on the Raspberry Pi gives some insight into minimum hardware needed to run a full featured desktop browser. The Raspberry Pi is popular enough that it has received good support. However, the hardware was lacking up until the Raspberry Pi 3 with 1 GiB of memory (may need more virtual memory swap space) and a Raspberry Pi 4 with 2 GiB of memory is recommended. Even then, performance is likely to be only adequate compared to most x86-64 hardware although for $35 U.S. few customers will be disappointed.

DenisPaul Quote:

With PHP and MySQL running from the server by a recent processor, I think we could make modern websites compatible with Amiga 68k. The Amiga would only need to handle a little HTML and... CSS.
It would be nice if IBrowse handled the basics of CSS like: width, height, color, background-color, border. I don't think it would slow down that much IBrowse and it would allow a lot of Amiga sites to no longer use outdated HTML code.


It would be easier and better to upgrade the hardware of the end user. A mass produced 68k Amiga SoC based SBC could come close to the performance/price of a Raspberry Pi.

Last edited by matthey on 13-Sep-2021 at 07:46 PM.

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jacadcaps 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 20:39:04
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2007
Posts: 192
From: Canada

@matthey

Quote:
Certainly the GUI around WebKit can be eliminated with significant savings.


WebKit has no UI per se so not sure what you are referring to.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 21:09:24
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

jacadcaps Quote:

WebKit has no UI per se so not sure what you are referring to.


You misunderstood. I was referring to the GUI of modern desktop browsers around (surrounding and containing) WebKit. The example I gave of Surf eliminates the GUI leaving WebKit and only a minimal non-GUI UI.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 21:53:42
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

Ah yes, as usual a cheap and fast 68k SoC would solve all problems…

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 13-Sep-2021 22:51:42
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

Ah yes, as usual a cheap and fast 68k SoC would solve all problems…


Indeed. It would solve many problems but not bring world peace, just world education.

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vrana 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 14-Sep-2021 0:10:36
#46 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Feb-2010
Posts: 70
From: Australia

@DenisPaul

That's anotherr problems. A large percentage of websites now offload a lot of the processing to the web browser rather than have the server do it. Means they serve more traffic with less overhead.

Feeds into a previous comment that websites are more than just text and images now but also used to run applications. For that to work, they get the clients browser to do the heavy lifting.

Quote:

DenisPaul wrote:
@Futaura

With PHP and MySQL running from the server by a recent processor, I think we could make modern websites compatible with Amiga 68k. The Amiga would only need to handle a little HTML and... CSS.
It would be nice if IBrowse handled the basics of CSS like: width, height, color, background-color, border. I don't think it would slow down that much IBrowse and it would allow a lot of Amiga sites to no longer use outdated HTML code.

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QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 14-Sep-2021 20:47:23
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@Kolla,

Always the perpetual Monty Python skit " I came here for an argument " guy. What do you like. maybe just a plain 68000 CPU @ 7Mhz? I tend to doubt that too......

Last edited by QuikSanz on 15-Sep-2021 at 12:52 AM.
Last edited by QuikSanz on 14-Sep-2021 at 08:48 PM.
Last edited by QuikSanz on 14-Sep-2021 at 08:47 PM.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 14-Sep-2021 23:31:34
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

vrana Quote:

That's another problem. A large percentage of websites now offload a lot of the processing to the web browser rather than have the server do it. Means they serve more traffic with less overhead.


If servers are to do more processing for Amiga computers, it would be more productive to improve security where the Amiga is weak. Think server partner with VPN, Amiga specific virus scanning, black list for web sites with Amiga specific viruses, Amiga e-mail addresses and support for older standards, etc. If Amiga was mass produced, it may be possible to provide such services for a low price. I believe economies of scale apply to web services too. Just an idea that I have not investigated.

vrana Quote:

Feeds into a previous comment that websites are more than just text and images now but also used to run applications. For that to work, they get the clients browser to do the heavy lifting.


Even if the server does more processing to render web pages, a dumb terminal Amiga will offer a less interactive and less dynamic browsing experience.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 15-Sep-2021 3:00:27
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@QuikSanz

I certainly accomplish more on a 7MHz 68000 than what anyone here get done on a fictional fantasy 68k SoC. There are so many other means to use http than for only web browsers.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 15-Sep-2021 20:56:22
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

I certainly accomplish more on a 7MHz 68000 than what anyone here get done on a fictional fantasy 68k SoC. There are so many other means to use http than for only web browsers.


Everything is fantasy until it is made reality. We could examine whether it is a reasonable and reachable fantasy. What was the biggest advancement in Amiga technology from 1985-1994? I would say faster 68k CPUs. They allowed the Amiga to do much more, including web browsing. Improving the CPU was the primary source of improvement in many other computers as well. From a historical perspective, it is reasonable to believe upgrading the CPU would provide benefits to web browsing, perhaps relative to the amount of CPU improvement. The 68k and Amiga custom chips are from the mid '80s to mid '90s so there is a huge gap in technology up to today. The Amiga custom chips were at the limit of what was affordable at that time while the silicon costs today of the 68000 and OCS custom chips would be less than $1 U.S. Even a 68060 and AGA would not be much more. Even the memory in quantities the Amiga used barely increases the chip cost when integrated. In fact, the silicon cost is so cheap that it is worthwhile to create a more modern chip if going to the trouble and to be more competitive. Raspberry Pi and Arduino products are examples of cheap products taking advantage of the low silicon prices and are not fantasy. Custom chips do need development in FPGA but this has already been done successfully even as some Amiga users claimed FPGA Amiga hardware was a hoax early in their development. Turning FPGA logic into an ASIC is a common next step in development so no fantasy there. The cost is within the budget of most small businesses in the industrialized world. In my opinion, the only debatable technology related fantasy is whether there is enough demand for a low priced mass produced classic/retro Amiga product. Perhaps this is not as big of a fantasy as Amiga entities working together to achieve it but the Amiga is doomed regardless without cooperation.

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QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 16-Sep-2021 3:17:46
#51 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@kolla,

I can actually do much on my A2000 W/Gforce combo 030/40 and more on the 4000T W/ CSMK3 Loaded, but still go to the the rocket, Ryzen7 8 Core to do the net.

Chris

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kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 16-Sep-2021 7:17:55
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

You are using a very successful ARM platform that mainly runs Linux as a showcase for how well a similar m68k based board running amigaos would be. As if there is ANY relevance at all.

Before you know it, Raspberry Pi releases a “standard” FPGA board to plug on a raspberry pi and we’re all running Minimig AGA on that with Emu68 or Musashi on the ARM. It might just happen.

It will not fix “the problem” of Amiga web browsers, though.

Last edited by kolla on 16-Sep-2021 at 07:22 AM.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 16-Sep-2021 21:15:30
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

QuikSanz Quote:

I can actually do much on my A2000 W/Gforce combo 030/40 and more on the 4000T W/ CSMK3 Loaded, but still go to the the rocket, Ryzen7 8 Core to do the net.


I have a CSMK3 (68060@75MHz) accelerator too. It is amazing considering how much faster and more responsive the Amiga is with so much more CPU performance and disk performance. Still, this is only about 10 years of technology progress since the Amiga was released and is missing about 25 years of advancement to today. It gives us a taste of what a modern Amiga could be like but struggles with CPU intensive code made for modern processors including web browsers.

kolla Quote:

You are using a very successful ARM platform that mainly runs Linux as a showcase for how well a similar m68k based board running amigaos would be. As if there is ANY relevance at all.


The silicon cost is the same for ARM as it is for the 68k. There are ARM designs available which reduce one time development costs but they increase per unit production costs. ARM and Broadcom are middlemen increasing production costs. The $4 U.S. Raspberry Pi Pico uses a custom designed RP2040 ASIC that cuts out Broadcom as a middleman and they have become a supplier of ASIC SoCs for Adafruit, Arduino, Pimoroni, and SparkFun so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040

This SoC is very low spec with 133MHz dual core M0+ ARM cores (using Thumb2), 264kiB of SRAM, no GPU (or display hardware), no ethernet or wireless connectivity and no Linux. Most Amiga users would wonder why anyone would want this yet there are already multiple customers. The product is all about reducing costs to a bare minimum. The AmigaOS can almost be used on this low of spec hardware and probably could using the supported external flash memory. Where the Amiga shines though is with a minimalist spec that does support a display and has more IO support but which Linux has a difficult time supporting. This would be more like the Raspberry Pi Zero or original Raspberry Pi spec. This is where the Amiga has advantages and benefits from its simplicity, minimal logic and minimal footprint. This spec is a standard which is unusual for embedded hardware and provides software. The AmigaOS destroys Linux in footprint and responsiveness at this spec. The same hardware can be used for a retro Amiga relaunch reaching multiple markets.

kolla Quote:

Before you know it, Raspberry Pi releases a “standard” FPGA board to plug on a raspberry pi and we’re all running Minimig AGA on that with Emu68 or Musashi on the ARM. It might just happen.


That is possible unless Amiga provides low end hardware with FPGA support first. The Amiga would still have an advantage by not needing inefficient CPU emulation which is important for minimal systems and which allows to compete at a lower price.

kolla Quote:

It will not fix “the problem” of Amiga web browsers, though.


It could fix some of the problem of lack of Amiga web browser support by enlarging the Amiga user base with significantly cheaper and higher performance hardware. Lightweight browsers would likely improve significantly while desktop browsers would likely improve but remain out of reach for an adequate user experience.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 13:32:27
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

That is possible unless Amiga provides low end hardware with FPGA support first. The Amiga would still have an advantage by not needing inefficient CPU emulation which is important for minimal systems and which allows to compete at a lower price


You can already have that advantage, there is AROS for Raspberry Pi.

When the "user base" are users of an embedded device, it's pointless - the entire point of embedded is that the device is the application. Why would anyone want to make a web based interface on top AmigaOS for embedded use, when all the underlying technologies are missing, and there are no shoulders to stand on?

Last edited by kolla on 17-Sep-2021 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by kolla on 17-Sep-2021 at 01:32 PM.

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QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 17:11:53
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@kolla,

There is already emulation all over the place. I can put on my PC and have 7 cores doing nothing. Who wants that? not me. I'd rather have something that looks like a big M designed CPU that runs circles around old ones.

The Apollo team has made the first steps in that direction and if taken further to properly expand it, most instructions in 1 cycle what's left in no more than 2, I personally would like MMU for future compatibility, and max out the speed in a big FPGA, it would make a great candidate for an ASIC.

Pipe dream you say, I can hear it now. All dreams are pipe dreams until they become reality. Then you will say it's not Motorola, I would say who cares cause it is probably where they would be if the line continued. Argue all you want but some of us would love to see this happen. maybe not but maybe just maybe...........

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 17:24:58
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11830
From: Norway

@QuikSanz

The problem is standards, if your not following standards, you are not part of anything, you can’t port software if the dependenys are not ported over, you can’t get speed if graphic formats are not the same as standards used by evyerone else, yes its boring doing the same as everyone else, but you wont to do what everyone else does on amiga, then guess what you need follow standards.

the more compex stuff get the harder it is find bugs, and what coused the bugs, you need memory protection, its not a option, it a essential.

Sure its fun dream about what Amiga might become in 1996/7 if commdore did not go backrupt, but world has moved on.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 17-Sep-2021 at 05:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 17-Sep-2021 at 05:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 17-Sep-2021 at 05:26 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 17-Sep-2021 at 05:25 PM.

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QuikSanz 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 18:01:28
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1166
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@NutsAboutAmiga,

The Apollo can use the same OS as everyone else, this should be no different.

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BigD 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 21:48:45
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5895
From: UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Sure its fun dream about what Amiga might become in 1996/7 if commdore did not go backrupt, but world has moved on.


But we haven’t have we? We are not prepared to give up our 68k/OCS-AGA software and don’t see the value in a ‘modern’ Amiga with no software! Stuff memory protection if it breaks backwards compatibility.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 22:38:11
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1790
From: Trondheim, Norway

@QuikSanz

I have an argument with Matthey, not you, believe it or not, I actually agree with a lot of what you say. You are, however, not (NOT!!) talking about embedded, like Matthey is.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaKit Website "Your Browser Sucks!" javascript message Update: Web Theme responsible, not AmigaKit!
Posted on 17-Sep-2021 22:39:07
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1129
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

You can already have that advantage, there is AROS for Raspberry Pi.


Native ARM AROS on the RPi loses Amiga software compatibility and is no longer a standard Amiga. Emulation of the 68k on ARM loses performance efficiency, power efficiency, resource efficiency (footprint grows), value (performance/price) and responsiveness. An emulated 68k Amiga isn't any good for embedded use. The biggest advantage of the Amiga is responsiveness with a small footprint which the RPi with Linux struggles with.

The following is from an embedded user on a forum trying to use a RPi to drive a stepper motor.

Quote:

I can also do the drive the steppers directly off the RasPi, but the timing I am getting is inconsistent and noisy enough (due to "Linux stuff") that I am not particularly sure that it wont result in lost steps (not a good thing for a CNC machine).

Ideally, I want motor timing which stays reliably within +/- 15us or so, which as-is isn't really happening on the RasPi. While the "average case" is pretty good (due to the RasPi being pretty fast), there are still frequent spikes of 100us or more, and periodic spikes of well over 500us.

These spikes just aren't really acceptable for the use-case because of things like inertia and similar.

I also have a RasPi2, but even with multiple cores, there is still an issue with latency spikes. Though, the spikes I am seeing are still a lot smaller than I am seeing on my main Windows PC (where I am seeing frequent spikes into the millisecond range).


It was then suggested to use FreeRTOS but the user was complaining about losing the standard Linux environment as FreeRTOS is roll your own OS on your own (find and compile everything yourself). Another user responded with the following post.

Quote:

FreeRTOS will not support a display or keyboard either. It is a small
embedded RTOS - it is not a large posix OS, and it does not have the
myriad of utilities, drivers, libraries, programs that are needed to
support a full ssh server or a display and keyboard.

You can, of course, /make/ display support on an FreeRTOS based system.
There are plenty of embedded systems with displays or screens, running
FreeRTOS. But it is a totally different world from using a display on a
Linux system.

Let me put it this way. If you want to use a Raspberry Pi, use Linux.
If you don't want to use Linux, don't use the Pi. This should be your
base line.


Unlike FreeRTOS, the AmigaOS has a standard environment and software which makes it more friendly where it can be used. The Amiga could be used at a smaller footprint than Linux and provide better responsiveness, provided it is not emulated.

kolla Quote:

When the "user base" are users of an embedded device, it's pointless - the entire point of embedded is that the device is the application. Why would anyone want to make a web based interface on top AmigaOS for embedded use, when all the underlying technologies are missing, and there are no shoulders to stand on?


There is demand for lightweight small footprint browsers in the embedded space (kiosks and set top boxes). There is also demand for browsers in retro devices like the Amiga. This dual demand and larger user base could push browser improvements. The Amiga already has a semi-modern lightweight browser in NetSurf which has unrealized potential.

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