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SHADES 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 3-Oct-2021 21:38:08
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 705
From: Melbourne

@cdimauro

Quote:
forgot this important point. Do you think that after ELEVEN years you'll get it?


None of what you have stated or I have stated is really relevant when you look at "buy-in cost"

PPC is far too expensive requiring custom designs that require mega $ to create and try to regain costs, full of bugs, require years of development....just no.

Yes, multi-threading / tasking is important but again, what's the cost, in money. If you need an expensive custom hardware CPU and base, it's not feasible.

Exec SG : kernel development experimental “pluggable” scheduler functionality is great!, just not on a $1000 US priced custom hardware platform. (Who are they kidding?)

If the hardware is cost prohibitive to make (unless you are Jeff Bezos), cost prohibitive to sell (Absolutely, no argument here) then, you can't pay developers and you sell bugger all.

No buy-in equals, no sales, no money, slow development, old under powered hardware and the list goes on.
What doesn't happen is growing your user base. The entire vision needs to change.

Last edited by SHADES on 03-Oct-2021 at 09:44 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 4:53:13
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@SHADES: there's no vision anymore, besides continuing to cow-milking its customers.

Actually there's cheap PowerPC hardware, even multicore, but the lack of development for OS4 is so chronic that after six years (AFAIR) those Tabor motherboards / computers are yet to be sold to customers (which are waiting for them).

Here we aren't even talking about complicated stuff, like multicore support, Gallium 3D, or a (real) 64 bit o.s.: just let the system boot and run the applications!

OK, the weird and non-standard (SIC!) FPU needs support, but an FPU emulator can be used to at least let the system be used, waiting for better optimizations (eh! IF they even come). There's not so much code on the Amiga/post-Amiga land which uses the FPU, so it shouldn't be a problem having slow performances on this side while enjoying the good-enough integer performances. But... nothing! Nothing is happening from years and years!

OS4 is a dead horse, and the only ones which are yet betting on it are some fanatics, included some developers which are still contributing with minor fixes without being paid, and that don't realize that they are continuing to support the most evil person of the entire Commodore and post-Commodore history.

Even worse are the OS3.1.4 & 3.2 developers, which are filling his pockets with fresh money that he's using to continue the legal battles: to me those are co-responsible of the current legal mess, and deserve a "place of honor".

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dipsomania 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 9:00:38
#103 ]
Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2014
Posts: 13
From: London

@cdimauro

Totally agree with you.

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Hammer 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 9:38:17
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
Like 68K based desktop computers, the PowerPC industry is stuck in the pre-ACPI balkanization era.


I have PowerPC PA-SEMI chip, I have you change clock frequency from CFE, and switch core, and you have temperature sensors, all that. The graphic card we have standard PC graphic cards they also have same stuff, sensors, programable clock, and so on.

So for me it bit strange talk about as if ACPI as something is in the hardware, sure it need some hardware support, but ACPI is mostly OS/BIOS thing.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Luca-Benini/publication/283482717/figure/fig10/AS:669562102112259@1536647453098/ACPI-interface-and-PC-platform.pbm


Jailbreak PS4 with X86 CPU doesn't have Microsoft defined APCI and PC boot environment and unmodified Windows can't boot from it. Linux X86 distribution needs to be modified for PS4.

Windows uses ACPI for its hardware abstraction layer (HAL).

AMD's 4700S APU and PS5 are the same APU design and AMD added "Designed for Windows" ACPI and normal PC boot environment for 4700S APU.

Both PS5 and 4700S APU have 16 GB 256-bit GDDR6-14000 memory.



Last edited by Hammer on 04-Oct-2021 at 10:18 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 9:40:41
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4270
From: Australia

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:

Balkanization is the fragmentation of a larger region or state into smaller regions or states, which may be hostile or uncooperative with one another.

If we would have some kind of Balkanization on PowerPCs, we would have a lot of independent and competing companies, producing a wide range of cheap PowerPC boards.

We have none of this.

And the company owning the right to port AOS4, never supported most of them in the past.

PowerPC market is fragmented, hence balkanization.

For CPU with PCIe 4.0, ECC memory capable and 16 threads

IBM POWER9 CPU (4-Core, 16 threads, supports ECC memory) has $559.85 USD retail cost and it's useless without a cost-effective motherboard.

AMD Ryzen 7 5800X (8-Core, 16 threads, supports ECC memory) has $374.99 USD retail cost.

For PCIe 4.0 with ECC memory capable motherboards

Power9's Blackbird Mainboard has $1,706.51 USD retail cost.

X86's ECC memory-capable solutions are Intel Xeons (ECC memory support is dependant on the motherboard model) and AMD Ryzen (ECC memory support is dependant on the motherboard model), Threadrippers, and Epyc.

My ASUS ROG Strix X570 motherboard officially supports ECC memory with $302.99 USD retail cost.

Last edited by Hammer on 09-Oct-2021 at 04:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 04-Oct-2021 at 10:14 AM.

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AmeegaGuy 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 14:39:25
#106 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2018
Posts: 91
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
I forgot this important point. Do you think that after ELEVEN years you'll get it?


Please observe the Saturday schedule for "AmiWest" this year:
http://amiwest.net/broadcast/

12:00 AM | 7:00 PM | 4:00 PM - Trevor Dickinson and Steven Solie - ExecSG Multicore and More

I'm sure after 11 years it has reached quite an advanced state of development.

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Rose 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 14:48:08
#107 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 935
From: Unknown

@AmeegaGuy

Two more years!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 15:32:30
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11916
From: Norway

@Rose

So has anything changed from 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5C1uN-rhW4

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cdimauro 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 21:02:49
#109 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@AmeegaGuy Quote:

AmeegaGuy wrote:
@cdimauro
Quote:
I forgot this important point. Do you think that after ELEVEN years you'll get it?

Please observe the Saturday schedule for "AmiWest" this year:
http://amiwest.net/broadcast/

12:00 AM | 7:00 PM | 4:00 PM - Trevor Dickinson and Steven Solie - ExecSG Multicore and More

I'm sure after 11 years it has reached quite an advanced state of development.

In reality it took took much less for Steven Solie to regret from his previous statement.

In fact, it's now several years that he doesn't talk anymore of SMP, but all about a generic "multi-core" support.

He also miserably tried in this forum to REDIFINE (!) the SMP term (which has a technical meaning since ages) to match the generic multi-core which is promoting, trying to save his face after the colossal shot that he made.

In short: I don't expect any concrete update.

Anyway, I hope that the videos will be made available on YT after their streaming, because I like to see the most important one:
"Michal Shulz - EMU68 - 68000Emulation"
The schedule is too late for live-watching it, at least for me.

@Rose Quote:

Rose wrote:
@AmeegaGuy
Two more years!

Or two more decades: time is particularly relative on the post-Amiga land...

@NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Rose

So has anything changed from 2015?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5C1uN-rhW4

Nothing: same words used after 6 years.

This video is nice, first because it shows how Solie talks about the (missing) SMP.
Second, because it also shows how much effort was done to write the presentation.
Third, that talk is soooooo cheap in the post-Amiga land, and here Solie is a clearly a master (albeit half of the time spent was on smiling).

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Acill 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 21:37:59
#110 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2006
Posts: 161
From: Port Hueneme, Ca.

I dont have much expectations of new updates for my X5000 and 4.1 these days. I mostly use it as is and as if it was just a very fast and easy to setup classic machine these days. When new releases come out, i get them and like seeing it, but it is what it is.

Seems a lot of the work is now in the classics.

Last edited by Acill on 04-Oct-2021 at 09:38 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 22:35:03
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5943
From: UK

@Acill

Quote:
I dont have much expectations of new updates for my X5000 and 4.1 these days.


None for sale any more! Do you have any expectation that the X5000 will EVER be on sale again? It doesn't really matter if there's any more software updates if the whole flaming projects dead! It's like when QuikPak were forced to stop making Amigas in 1997 and you knew Gateway would never let anyone build them again on their watch! Same as Hyperion; if Ben doesn't win in court I'm sure he'll let the AmigaOne/AmigaOS project burn rather than sell out his stake!

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SHADES 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 4-Oct-2021 23:39:55
#112 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 705
From: Melbourne

@cdimauro

Quote:
there's no vision anymore, besides continuing to cow-milking its customers.


True, there really aren't that many to milk anymore though, and that's becoming less and less the more they do it.

Quote:
Actually there's cheap PowerPC hardware, even multicore, but the lack of development for OS4 is so chronic that after six years (AFAIR) those Tabor motherboards / computers are yet to be sold to customers (which are waiting for them).


Your definition of cheap? I'm only saying, if you want customers, make it worthwhile going there. $500 US is seriously pushing it when there is nothing to offer on a custom base built for only one purpose.
Good luck if that's cheap. $100...in the current state? Maybe.

Quote:
Here we aren't even talking about complicated stuff, like multicore support, Gallium 3D, or a (real) 64 bit o.s.: just let the system boot and run the applications!

Look. Even the humble $30 Pi has multicore. If you want to get the use out of the hardware, it needs attention however, and I stress this, $30 built-in, is not expensive, so, it's hardly a dealbreaker, but it needs to move forward and to do that means, you need people to invest to make money. IF it's cheap enough, even the semi-interested can give it a look. The OS cost to purchase should also match!

Quote:
OS4 is a dead horse, and the only ones which are yet betting on it are some fanatics, included some developers which are still contributing with minor fixes without being paid, and that don't realise that they are continuing to support the most evil person of the entire Commodore and post-Commodore history.


Agree mostly, although on the other hand, some good progress was made to enhancing the underlining OS like in memory usage. Maybe some of it can be salvaged for SMP on some new version of the OS. If you can pay developers. - At this stage, it's a pipe dream.

Quote:
Even worse are the OS3.1.4 & 3.2 developers, which are filling his pockets with fresh money that he's using to continue the legal battles: to me those are co-responsible of the current legal mess, and deserve a "place of honor"


That's only for die-hards. No one in their right mind is going to look at buying that stuff just to see what AMIGA is about. They may make enough profit to buy a new rice cooker but growing the userbase, don't make me laugh.
The entire vision needs to change. Cheap hardware, software to match.
Make it accessible enough for the curious to bother, build it from there because you need to start from scratch now. The user base is too small to support anything else.

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cdimauro 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 5:11:07
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2287
From: Germany

@SHADES Quote:

SHADES wrote:
@cdimauro
Quote:
Actually there's cheap PowerPC hardware, even multicore, but the lack of development for OS4 is so chronic that after six years (AFAIR) those Tabor motherboards / computers are yet to be sold to customers (which are waiting for them).

Your definition of cheap? I'm only saying, if you want customers, make it worthwhile going there. $500 US is seriously pushing it when there is nothing to offer on a custom base built for only one purpose.
Good luck if that's cheap. $100...in the current state? Maybe.

Yes, cheap means something like that. The lowest cost PowerPC processors that NXP offers can be found on that ballpark.

It's quite expensive considered what else (not PowerPC) can be found (more powerful and at much less cost), but here we're talking about a processor to be used on a hobby machine just to run OS4 (as I've said times ago, PowerPCs can be considered as the "dongle key" used by Lightwave).
Quote:
Quote:
Here we aren't even talking about complicated stuff, like multicore support, Gallium 3D, or a (real) 64 bit o.s.: just let the system boot and run the applications!

Look. Even the humble $30 Pi has multicore. If you want to get the use out of the hardware, it needs attention however, and I stress this, $30 built-in, is not expensive, so, it's hardly a dealbreaker, but it needs to move forward and to do that means, you need people to invest to make money. IF it's cheap enough, even the semi-interested can give it a look. The OS cost to purchase should also match!

Correct and, as I've said before, it should be considered that this is just a hobby market.

The Pi can do much better and costs much less. That's why PiStorm with Michal's Emu68 can be (and I believe that it'll be) a game changer here. See below why.
Quote:
Quote:
OS4 is a dead horse, and the only ones which are yet betting on it are some fanatics, included some developers which are still contributing with minor fixes without being paid, and that don't realise that they are continuing to support the most evil person of the entire Commodore and post-Commodore history.

Agree mostly, although on the other hand, some good progress was made to enhancing the underlining OS like in memory usage. Maybe some of it can be salvaged for SMP on some new version of the OS.

Impossible: SMP is certainly out of question. ExecSG leader already regretted from it several years ago (see also the above YT video, which is from 2015).
Quote:
If you can pay developers. - At this stage, it's a pipe dream.

Indeed: just a dream. Hyperion hasn't done it when its finances were much better, and I strongly doubt that it will be do it nowadays even after some bankrupt which it faced.

Some time ago number6 posted here the company's incomes, and you can clearly see its financial situation, as well as that the most of the income came from selling OS 3.1.4 and OS 3.2...
Quote:
Quote:
Even worse are the OS3.1.4 & 3.2 developers, which are filling his pockets with fresh money that he's using to continue the legal battles: to me those are co-responsible of the current legal mess, and deserve a "place of honor"

That's only for die-hards. No one in their right mind is going to look at buying that stuff just to see what AMIGA is about. They may make enough profit to buy a new rice cooker but growing the userbase, don't make me laugh.
The entire vision needs to change. Cheap hardware, software to match.
Make it accessible enough for the curious to bother, build it from there because you need to start from scratch now. The user base is too small to support anything else.

That's why the userbase is moving towards the "classic" market: it's much more affordable, there are plenty of products (even new ones), and... it's the real (more or less) Amiga.

At the very end Amigans like to continue to use the old software which was developed for the Commodore Amiga.

Games need a very good compatibility, and here there's no other choice than WinUAE (especially with the upcoming version). The computational power that you need is almost all about the needed emulation accuracy. Only a few 3D and/or RTG games can benefit from additional performances, but WinUAE already gives some ways (immediate blits, higher-end 68K processors, and JIT of course) to have them, just using the remaining power offered by the host processor(s).

Applications needs computational power, and this comes using a JIT. Here, as I've said, the game changer will be EMU68, which allows to get very good performances at a ridiculous price.

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Doofus 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 5:58:18
#114 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2018
Posts: 50
From: Unknown

@AmigaOldskooler

You've gotta be kidding me! A1222? There'll be no such thing. It's just more vaporware. The Amiga community has been reduced to professional programmers and their X5000's who don't program any software for the rest of us and Vampire owners who spend a fortune playing games I have on my Raspberry Pi. No hardware or software shortages on the Pi either. Clearly Amiga is going under. You people not using Mac or PC's have no idea how far you've fallen behind. The Amiga was once 10 years ahead of it's time, now it's ten years obsolete!

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 6:21:34
#115 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 359
From: Unknown

This thread is pure BS.
We use Amiga NG because it is the same Amiga as from Commodore but better because faster.
If someone want change they have to hard work on something on x86 or ARM that will be not a shit compared to win/osx/lnx.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 8:51:01
#116 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@AmeegaGuy Quote:

AmeegaGuy wrote:

Please observe the Saturday schedule for "AmiWest" this year:
http://amiwest.net/broadcast/

12:00 AM | 7:00 PM | 4:00 PM - Trevor Dickinson and Steven Solie - ExecSG Multicore and More

I'm sure after 11 years it has reached quite an advanced state of development.

In reality it took took much less for Steven Solie to regret from his previous statement.

In fact, it's now several years that he doesn't talk anymore of SMP, but all about a generic "multi-core" support.

He also miserably tried in this forum to REDIFINE (!) the SMP term (which has a technical meaning since ages) to match the generic multi-core which is promoting, trying to save his face after the colossal shot that he made.

In short: I don't expect any concrete update.


I actually think it’s possible that he has developed SMP into the ExecSG kernel in some way. It’s not that much of rocket science after all, it’s ”just” a kernel; the real challenge would be the rest of the Amiga environment, that simply can not be SMP without breaking compatibility.

There has already been some signs about this happening. And the signs are kind of disturbing IMO since it seems they do it in a poor way, involving unnecessary changes to firmware of motherboards, causing other operating systems not to work anymore. See for yourself in this (lengthy but extremely interesting) first post:

https://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=11&topic_id=12995&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&start=0

In the post, MorphOS developer Bigfoot (and also developer of the X5000 firmware) is putting the spotlight on seemingly poor design decisions from ssolie regarding the implementation of SMP in ExecSG. Some time ago, Bigfoot made a public demonstration of MorphOS running natively on X64 hardware. In his efforts to migrate MorphOS he ended up writing a completely new MorphOS kernel from scratch. The kernel isn’t at all limited to to X64/AMD64 architecture, it happily runs on PPC too. Ironically it was actually developed on X5000, and when this new MorphOS kernel is running on the X5000 HW it natively runs in SMP and 64-bit mode, cleanly and properly implemented so that it can boot up with the current, unchanged motherboard firmware. Signs of ExecSG development that Bigfoot highlights in his post suggest that this is not the path ssolie has chosen.

But again, having SMP in a kernel is not the same thing as having an Amiga environment that is SMP capable. Even the AROS “Silly SMP” experiment concluded that changes to applications’ source code was needed, albeit very small. But it’s not binary compatible and not source compatible either. If you give this (compatibility) up though, implementing SMP should be quite straightforward and no brainer at all.

But breaking Amiga compatibility raises the question of why on earth you would want to continue using PPC at all. Of course AeonKit has its main focus on making their OS make the most out of their PPC products, including the Tabor. Their whole purpose seems to be about building HW dongles (PPC motherboards) that locks the community in a dead-end platform. But once you have sacrificed both binary and source compatibility you could as well go all-in on SMP, 64-bit, real memory protection and resource tracking, etc, on any other platform such as X64/AMD64 or AArch64 or whatever. Sticking to PPC at that point would just be… weird!

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TRIPOS 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 8:51:23
#117 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Acill

Quote:
I dont have much expectations of new updates for my X5000 and 4.1 these days.


None for sale any more! Do you have any expectation that the X5000 will EVER be on sale again? It doesn't really matter if there's any more software updates if the whole flaming projects dead! It's like when QuikPak were forced to stop making Amigas in 1997 and you knew Gateway would never let anyone build them again on their watch! Same as Hyperion; if Ben doesn't win in court I'm sure he'll let the AmigaOne/AmigaOS project burn rather than sell out his stake!


It has already crashed and burned. AmigaKit has removed the “Hyperion” category in their web shop since long, as well as any product relying on Hyperion “trademarks” such as “AmigaOne” and “AmigaOS”. Not even 3.1 ROM’s are for sale there anymore. And AeonKit is developing their own OS now, they own ExecSG and they have already released a beta to testers of their “System 54” that currently uses OS4 components to patch the gaps where native components has not yet been developed. And to fill those gaps? Well according to Leman himself it will happen partly by relying on open source software. He underscores that (quote) "there is a surprising amount of GPL software in OS4 too", as part of the explanation of how this will be achieved (quote) “over the next few months”. They will definitely look at AROS IMHO.

Edit: Could also be that some of the unpaid OS4 developers, owning their own work, has opened up their SW by GPL or other open source licenses, making them non-exclusive to Hyperion, thus opening up for AeonKit to use the SW as well? It has happened before in the Amiga world. MorphOS’s Ambient was for example a key proprietary component of MorphOS once. But when the unpaid and disgruntled developer David Gerber ragequitted, he released the Ambient under the GPL license.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 05-Oct-2021 at 09:07 AM.

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Turrican3 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 10:34:30
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Jun-2003
Posts: 355
From: Italy

My 2 cent is, and has been for a vey long while now (geez I feel like I'm recycling the exact same concepts for years, that should say a lot I'm afraid), that OS4 can only be saved (?) by porting it to the most reasonable (from a price/performance ratio standpoint), modern hardware we have right now: the RaspberryPi.

That's what I would do first and foremost: make it sensibly priced and build a decent userbase, which I'm fairly sure would not be measured in the mere thousands. Keeping the OS tied to horribly overpriced, underpowered hardware will only make it slowly die. I see no point in doing that... yet that's exactly what's been happening for the last - I don't know how many years, arguably decades?

The Amiga true strength was, and I think still is, in the "best bang per buck" market. The moment you turn that to an insanely expensive box that literally only serves as a dongle you're instantly losing 99% of your (potential) customers.

And while I can definitely understand that right now the actual money is on the Classic line, I'd humbly argue that we can't be sure a nextgen market isn't viable until, well, barrier of entry is at least somewhat comparable.

Bring OS4 to cheap, yet reasonably powerful hardware that most of the Classic Amiga likely already owns (or can purchase for very little money), THEN we can talk.

Last edited by Turrican3 on 06-Oct-2021 at 08:52 AM.
Last edited by Turrican3 on 05-Oct-2021 at 10:36 AM.

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Rob 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 16:26:02
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6077
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
It has already crashed and burned. AmigaKit has removed the “Hyperion” category in their web shop since long


Same with Cloanto. What do Hyperion and Cloanto have in common? What conclusions should we draw from this?

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Rose 
Re: Is it game over for OS4
Posted on 5-Oct-2021 16:55:44
#120 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Nov-2009
Posts: 935
From: Unknown

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
It has already crashed and burned. AmigaKit has removed the “Hyperion” category in their web shop since long


Same with Cloanto. What do Hyperion and Cloanto have in common? What conclusions should we draw from this?


Amigakit doesn't play well with others?

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