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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
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PosterThread
redfox 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 9-Nov-2021 22:00:36
#201 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1927
From: Canada

@ktadd

ktadd quote:
Quote:
I can tell you from first hand experience, that if you run across issues and report them, you will more than likely get a quick response ...


I agree.

During my upgrade to AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2, I decided to do a clean install.

Later, while I was reinstalling some of my Enhancer software, the A-EON Updater program was acting strangely. It would actually download the selected files, but after completing the update, Updater would not update the list in its window. The list would remain in a ghosted or inactive state. If I quit Updater, I could not relaunch it. Updater appeared to be hung.

Andy Broad helped me solve this issue. He was very patient.

At first, we thought it was related to listviewer.gadget, which was being updated around the same time.

The actual culprit was an old program called RinghioServer, which was installed from the AmigaOS 4.1 FE CD. Apparently, the A-EON Updater program requires the A-EON Enhancer NotificationServer, which is an enhancement of the original RinghioServer. I suspect Updater was waiting for a response that RinghioServer could not provide.

Thanks again Andy.


---
redfox

Last edited by redfox on 09-Nov-2021 at 10:08 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 09-Nov-2021 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 09-Nov-2021 at 10:04 PM.
Last edited by redfox on 09-Nov-2021 at 10:02 PM.

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greenmeanie 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 22:51:22
#202 ]
Member
Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Posts: 42
From: USA

@Mobileconnect

This AMIGA Drama just never stops.
I will be DEAD before I see AMIGA like when I was a kid.
It just seems it is a CURSED OS now.

Last edited by greenmeanie on 12-Nov-2021 at 10:57 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 12-Nov-2021 23:20:13
#203 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6190
From: UK

@redfox

Half the fun of AmigaOS is working out conflicts and what hack works with what software!

Well done!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Hypex 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 10-Dec-2021 16:07:14
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10547
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kamelito

Quote:
Not so hard as Morphos has demonstrated by using Aros source code, improving on them and gave them back following the license rules.


As I've alluded to they didn't get it right either. MorphDOS is close to AmigaOS as it doesn't have too many additions to commands. But the script interpreter is buggy. I was writing a script that could run on OS3, OS4 or MOS. Man it took me months to do that. It was such hard work. I started with an OS3 base compatibility and adopted OS4 changes as needed. But MorphOS had so many quirks I had to keep putting work arounds and tiny hacks in place. Then test that it still worked on all three. As an example storing a quoted variable stores quotes in the variable which will fail when given to a command. And after all that Enhancer came along and ruined it! Making my script think it was running on MOS when it was running on OS4! So now I needed to support four Amiga platforms. It was doing my head in!

Last edited by Hypex on 11-Dec-2021 at 02:17 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 10-Dec-2021 16:36:45
#205 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10547
From: Greensborough, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
From what I have heard from Michele Battilana, it sounds like he accepted and respected the right of Hyperion to develop AmigaOS 4 for the PPC. I believe there would have been no lawsuits from Amiga parties had Hyperion stuck to AmigaOS 4 development for the PPC. Hyperion had a very favorable 2009 agreement after their coercion of Amiga Inc. when they were financially vulnerable but Ben Hermans was too arrogant to abide by this gift. If AmigaOS 4 for PPC was profitable, wouldn't Hyperion continue active development and marketing to help finance the lawsuits like with the 68k AmigaOS?


So it looks like OS3.1.4+ 68K was more popular with classic users than with Cloanto. I thought it was a strange proposition. But if Hyperion didn't do it would Cloanto, if they own the rights, produce a long awaited 68K update?

I think the thing is, OS4 was not too profitable, because it relies on a small maket to adopt expensive hardware. The model doesn't give much headroom for profit. And though work on OS4 continues, it is held back by the lawsuits, because it takes focus away as well the finances.

The irony is people said for years that OS4 code should be backported to 68K. And in OS3.2 they have to an extent. But, this doesn't solve anything. Now PPC has become a dead end, where it was meant to be an upgrade path. And 68K is an old dead end. I don't see the point of backporting to 68K if it needs to be emulated to match PPC performance. That is not future proofing either, it is avoiding the problem.

Quote:
Many 68k Amiga users want upgrades but also want to retain better compatibility than PPC Amiga like systems offer. It didn't surprise me that the 68k AmigaOS upgrade was a success. I expect there were some potential customers like me who refused to support Hyperion on ethical grounds (I bought AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9). There isn't 68k hardware with a good performance/price ratio either. I don't think the 68k AmigaOS upgrade even scratched the surface of the potential in the 68k Amiga market.


Most PPC systems lack the chipset. Ones that have it are still slow to run OS4 for practical uses. The 68K crowd love that chipset.

Quote:
Emulation exhibits a lack of available hardware with a good performance/price. The problem for MorphOS on x86-64 hardware is not a lack of hardware with a good performance/price but getting people to install an alien OS on their hardware with less software, fewer drivers and more cost when other alternatives are free. I doubt they could gain much market share if they were paying users to try MorphOS and they plan on charging for it. I can see a few die hard Amiga fans buying MorphOS x86-64 but that is it.


It gets even worse. Even for some people holding up the AmigaOS on x86 banner an AmigaOS on x86[64] isn't good enough any more. They want to run it alongside their desktop or use it on their tablet but not have it take over the system.

Quote:
A combination of a good test suite and beta testing with enough good beta testers is likely the best way to debug but this requires good developers and beta testers in adequate numbers which is likely the problem in "this kind of environment" mentioned by ktadd. It may help if AeonKit keeps the bug fixed module releases at a high pace but slows down major revisions to give more time for testing before release. It is a "heap of work" to make an AmigaOS 4 replacement from scratch especially considering Amiga Corporation has usable source code for up to AmigaOS 3.1. A lack of cooperation will lead to less standardization and more division between the Amiga flavors. Maybe Ben Hermans needs to be worked around but we have a problem if the other Amiga business entities can't communicate and work together better.


The problem is that specific things would need to be tested by testers. Most bugs would be found by accident. Or when some component instantly breaks. So without resources and testers on assignment bug finding can be too unreliable. A bit random.

I discovered List 54 had an issue when suddenly the SPAT and DPAT classic scripts broke. At the time I didn't realise it wasn't the OS4 version. Then later I found Version, a core OS4 command, was also broken. Again I found my system didn't have the OS4 version. As a funny example, running the following command on Enhancer OS4, will produce a successful result!
Version MorphOS

Last edited by Hypex on 11-Dec-2021 at 02:18 PM.

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1Mouse 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 11:33:27
#206 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1352
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

@all

They (whoever) need to reimplement OS4 (or whatever they want to call it) onto X86/X64 hardware using all the best bits from MorphOS and AmigaOS4 (not AROS, I don't believe it has anything to offer)

_________________
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Troels 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 12:07:11
#207 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2004
From: Unknown

@1Mouse
I agree that for us Amiga users it would be the nicest solution but the business model is difficult to work out.

Can you sell Amiga OS in large enough numbers to pay for development, because when there is no expensive dongle (AmigaOne) to subsidise the development costs it has to be covered from OS profit?

I still believe utilising a linux or BSD kernel would be best future development, something that could let us easily prot programs, drivers etc. but would still act and look familiar.

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OlafS25 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 13:02:00
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6059
From: Unknown

@1Mouse

the mouse certainly knows it...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 14:07:35
#209 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 431
From: Unknown

@Troels

Yes, best bits of old Amiga Os on top of unix.
It is only way forward.
it will be never enough people to made ports and drivers on anything else.



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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 14:09:36
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12100
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Best thing about Unix is that don’t need port programs to Amiga, you just it from rabbit hole, actually you don’t need Amiga at all.

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Hypex 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 14:21:30
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10547
From: Greensborough, Australia

@1Mouse

The easiest way to do that is to simply stage an optimised emulator. Doing it the proper way natively would take years and would likely have faults or quirks. BTW, MorphOS does share bits with AROS, so it would be a limited amount of bits.

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bison 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 15:38:37
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2038
From: N-Space

@ppcamiga1

You sound like a broken record, but I think you're right.

@1Mouse

Why AmigaOS and MorphOS, but not AROS? AROS is a mostly complete implementation of the first.

Last edited by bison on 11-Dec-2021 at 03:40 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 21:11:37
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6190
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Troels

Yes, best bits of old Amiga Os on top of unix.
It is only way forward.
it will be never enough people to made ports and drivers on anything else.



I think that there's a number of ways forward but the Tabor is looking to be the most depressingly drawn out option!

The IceDrake/PiStorm seem very fun for new A1200 acclerators, the A500 Mini is for ex-Amiga owners and those that want to find out what they missed and a RPi conversion of AmigaOS 4.x would give RiscOS a run for its money.

MacOS did what you suggest and maybe in the early 2000s that would have worked for AmigaOS too. Now we are retro or quit. Saying that, AROS and emulation seem enough for some PC-heads.

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bennymee 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 11-Dec-2021 22:36:38
#214 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 663
From: Netherlands

@bison

Morphos has the best browser and mailer at this moment! :;)

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kamelito 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 26-Dec-2021 20:28:25
#215 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 788
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Would have been nice to have the source of the demo.

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/scene/scoopex_demo_sky.lha

Is it tuto46.c?

Last edited by kamelito on 26-Dec-2021 at 08:49 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 26-Dec-2021 20:54:54
#216 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12100
From: Norway

@kamelito

converted .c version is part of libcopper tests.

https://github.com/khval/libcopper.library/blob/main/tests/asmskool/tut46.c

For the original, you can follow Amiga Hardware Programming school,
if want to learn something.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc3ltHgmiidpK-s0eP5hTKJnjdTHz0_bW

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HammerD 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 26-Dec-2021 23:02:17
#217 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 923
From: Ontario, Canada

@Troels

The sad part is Amithlon had all this decades ago? Imagine if it had been in continuous development during this past decade...

_________________
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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Dec-2021 4:55:54
#218 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 733
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

HammerD wrote:
@Troels

The sad part is Amithlon had all this decades ago? Imagine if it had been in continuous development during this past decade...



IT HAS SECRETLY BEEN.

BY ELON MUSK.








AND DOLLY PARTON.


/MEGA!








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Troels 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Dec-2021 8:32:04
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2004
From: Unknown

@HammerD
I was not a Pro Amithlon guy back then as there was still a vision for a fully native future that we were led to belive was realistic.

But Amithlon would have been a great future and be very very mature by now, giving acess to cheap HW for all. I have no doubts that we'd have a better end user experience than most get from OS4, MOS and AROS.

Still it was not what the most people wanted as it was like a way of giving up on the ultimate dream, most of us where far from realists and could ony see one path ahead


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OneTimer1 
Re: Why is OS4 not in the hands of A-EON?
Posted on 27-Dec-2021 10:56:43
#220 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 747
From: Unknown

@Troels

Quote:



But Amithlon would have been a great future and be very very mature by now, ...



Tell us, why did no one ever try to revive this idea?

There where enough developers around who could have done it, should be simple.

There is only one possible answer, the idea might not have been so good as people (fans & users) always claimed it.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 27-Dec-2021 at 10:57 AM.

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