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Poll : How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
10p Excellent (Best at 2D/3D, colors, and resolution, frame rate etc.)
5p Good / better than most computer.
0p Barely hanging in there.
-5p Below average / slow but usable
-10p useless / horrible
 
PosterThread
MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 9:13:54
#441 ]
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Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Ok, but who does really thwart AROS?

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pixie 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 19:17:00
#442 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2845
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Hammer

Quote:
On A500 with PiStorm/Emu68, I run "quake.gcc-2.95.3.030" (from Coffin R60) in HAM6 mode at 320x200 resolution, and the frame rate is like Doom EHB mode with a fast CPU i.e. the frame rate is smoother when compared to slide show IBM VGA ISA with Athlon XP 2200+ (1800 Mhz).

Quake HAM6 mode's appearance is a close approximation of RTG or VGA versions.

I never saw a game using HAM let alone a 3D FPS, and although it renders about half the speed of a normal aga screen mode I am actually quite impressed by it.

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bhabbott 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 20:36:40
#443 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 251
From: Aotearoa

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:

Business customers had already gone all-in on IBM in 1981

In your parallel universe.

I'm really impressed by your fervid imagination and the incredible things that you invent to sustain your distorted propaganda.

Which universe did you come from?

IBM PC
Quote:
The PC was IBM's first attempt to sell a computer through retail channels rather than directly to customers. Because IBM did not have retail experience, they partnered with the retail chains ComputerLand and Sears, who provided important knowledge of the marketplace and became the main outlets for the PC. More than 190 ComputerLand stores already existed, while Sears was in the process of creating a handful of in-store computer centers for sale of the new product.

Reception was overwhelmingly positive, with analysts estimating sales volume in the billions of dollars in the first few years after release. After release, IBM's PC immediately became the talk of the entire computing industry. Dealers were overwhelmed with orders, including customers offering pre-payment for machines with no guaranteed delivery date. By the time the machine began shipping, the term "PC" was becoming a household name.

Sales exceeded IBM's expectations by as much as 800%, with the company at one point shipping as many as 40,000 PCs per month... In 1983, IBM sold more than 750,000 machines, while Digital Equipment Corporation, one of the companies whose success had spurred IBM to enter the market, sold only 69,000... A 1983 study of corporate customers found that two thirds of large customers standardizing on one computer chose the PC, while only 9% chose Apple.

Almost as soon as the PC reached the market, rumors of clones began, and the first PC compatible clone was released in June 1982, less than a year after the PC's debut.

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Hammer 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 23:13:03
#444 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4656
From: Australia

@pixie

With 320x200 resolution, Quake demo3 in HAM6 was reaching about 19 FPS with 68K CPU power from PiStorm/Emu68/RPI 3a. 24 fps is Hollywood's standard experience.

From https://thandor.net/benchmark/33

Physical Amiga 500's HAM6 mode with PiStorm/Emu68/RPI 3a reaches about ET4000AX 1MB ISA's results.

IBM VGA ISA with Athlon XP 2200+ (1800 Mhz) reached about 8.6 fps.

Having the AAA chipset without substantial improvement in CPU power is pointless for Doom/Quake-type games.

If there was competent second source insurance for 68K in the early 1990s, Apollo-Core's AC68080 is a good "What IF".

For desktop applications, higher color display and higher resolution from AAA chipset are important.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Oct-2022 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Oct-2022 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Oct-2022 at 11:18 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 5:48:31
#445 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro
Quote:

I can say nothing about personal tastes. As I've said, Fightin' Spirit was strongly inspired by Art of Fighting for Neo Geo, which is quite evident.

Fightin' Spirit's player and NPC object can get lost in background artwork.

It's the first time that I've read such critic. I haven't noticed it, but maybe because I'm used to the game.
Quote:
Quote:

Do you know how much I like demos, right?

Jokes aside, the two games have completely different goals and consequently completely different engines that cannot be "merged".

Fightin' Spirit was created with the precise goal to "port" as much of possible from Art of Fighting to an Amiga OCS/ECS. So, to give big backgrounds, huge characters, a lot of animations, "energy bubbles", special moves, and especially to be very colorful.

I think that we succeed on the goal (considering the very limited hardware) and that it was enough for us.

Nothing else from Elfmania could be implemented (besides the parallax scroll on 1MB Chip-Mem machines, that I've already developed) simply because there are not enough performance resources.

I have seen console gamers criticizing Fightin' Spirit's lacking parallax scrollers.

That's ok: it's missing. However there was no room for implementing it.

As I've said, the game already runs at 25FPS with some rare 17FPS peaks. Implementing the floor parallax would have made it run at 17FPS. And even worse if other horizontal parallaxes were implemented.

The only option was the floor parallax with machines with 1MB+ Chip-Mem.
Quote:
SNES's SF2 player objects were reduced in size.

Indeed, but here its because of the native resolution (256 horizontal pixels) of this console.

The Amiga had 320 horizontal pixels resolutions, so using small players here wasn't due to maintain the original proportions, rather to save processing power for blitting the characters and for saving memory on Chip-Mem.

Which is what happened to Elfmania, where the players had the arms very close to the body (which also made them moving in a not natural way).
Quote:
The major criticism of Elfmania is the control scheme, hence the "tech demo" label for the game.

The control if fundamental, especial for a game like. But I think that the graphic had is consistent issues as well: see just above.

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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 5:52:19
#446 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
@bhabbott

In your parallel universe.

I'm really impressed by your fervid imagination and the incredible things that you invent to sustain your distorted propaganda.

Which universe did you come from?

The real one. See below.
Quote:
IBM PC
Quote:
The PC was IBM's first attempt to sell a computer through retail channels rather than directly to customers. Because IBM did not have retail experience, they partnered with the retail chains ComputerLand and Sears, who provided important knowledge of the marketplace and became the main outlets for the PC. More than 190 ComputerLand stores already existed, while Sears was in the process of creating a handful of in-store computer centers for sale of the new product.

Reception was overwhelmingly positive, with analysts estimating sales volume in the billions of dollars in the first few years after release. After release, IBM's PC immediately became the talk of the entire computing industry. Dealers were overwhelmed with orders, including customers offering pre-payment for machines with no guaranteed delivery date. By the time the machine began shipping, the term "PC" was becoming a household name.

Sales exceeded IBM's expectations by as much as 800%, with the company at one point shipping as many as 40,000 PCs per month... In 1983, IBM sold more than 750,000 machines, while Digital Equipment Corporation, one of the companies whose success had spurred IBM to enter the market, sold only 69,000... A 1983 study of corporate customers found that two thirds of large customers standardizing on one computer chose the PC, while only 9% chose Apple.

Almost as soon as the PC reached the market, rumors of clones began, and the first PC compatible clone was released in June 1982, less than a year after the PC's debut.


Which is very different from what you've state before and that I report for your convenience:

Business customers had already gone all-in on IBM in 1981

Highlighted the relevant parts.

Understood now?

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Massi 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 6:40:50
#447 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

I used to have a pirated copy of Fighting Spirit that never convinced me to buy the original.

The graphics are well above average but sometimes ruined by questionable palettes. Sound is OK.

The main problem however is that the game is slow-ish and because of this it doesn' t deliver a sense of fun.

The AGA version failed to improve the weak aspects of the OCS / ECS.

Overall it is an OK game (bitter-sweet for me).

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bhabbott 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 7:47:25
#448 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 251
From: Aotearoa

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Which is very different from what you've state before and that I report for your convenience:

Business customers had already gone all-in on IBM in 1981

Highlighted the relevant parts.

Yep, the instant IBM announced the PC, many businesses dropped their plans for other platforms and went 'all in' on IBM. Not all of them obviously, but after 1981 it became much harder to sell any 'personal' business computer that wasn't IBM compatible.

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Hammer 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 9:00:11
#449 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4656
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Which is what happened to Elfmania, where the players had the arms very close to the body (which also made them moving in a not natural way).





Elfmania's character objects are not limited to narrow widths.

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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 20:12:30
#450 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
I used to have a pirated copy of Fighting Spirit that never convinced me to buy the original.

The graphics are well above average but sometimes ruined by questionable palettes. Sound is OK.

As I've already written, I've nothing to say about personal tastes.

Others, included the magazines that reviewed it, have different opinions.
Quote:
The main problem however is that the game is slow-ish and because of this it doesn' t deliver a sense of fun.

I don't see it. The game characters move fluid, with a lot of animations.
Quote:
The AGA version failed to improve the weak aspects of the OCS / ECS.

From 64 to 128 colors it doesn't change so much, but at least several animations have been added.

What's missing is the floor parallax: this could have been implemented, for sure.
Quote:
Overall it is an OK game (bitter-sweet for me).



@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Which is what happened to Elfmania, where the players had the arms very close to the body (which also made them moving in a not natural way).


[Imagines with game's screenshots]

Elfmania's character objects are not limited to narrow widths.

Take a look at the details which I've highlighted with red circles:

Elfmania-object-width

Those are clear examples of what I've written, which led to unnatural positions for the characters.

Plus, you can also see the big character to the right on the first picture, which is completely unnatural for being one which jumped: it looks like that he's "doing" something completely different.

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Hammer 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 2:12:14
#451 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4656
From: Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
Those are clear examples of what I've written, which led to unnatural positions for the characters.

Plus, you can also see the big character to the right on the first picture, which is completely unnatural for being one which jumped: it looks like that he's "doing" something completely different.


Replace the leg reach with an arm reach since they just similar amount of pixels.

The big man's arm being close to the body is a known martial art stance.
----



Elfmania's male characters have longer upper body reach.

It's an artwork direction.


Last edited by Hammer on 27-Oct-2022 at 03:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Oct-2022 at 03:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Oct-2022 at 03:09 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Oct-2022 at 02:20 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Oct-2022 at 02:19 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 3:37:32
#452 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4656
From: Australia

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Barely hanging in there. Five years after VGA mode 0x13, and still no chunky mode.


From my personal experience, IBM VGA 16-bit MCA's Mode 13h is very slow. Cloned VGA cards' Mode 13h implementation can be faster e.g. ET4000AX's.

The Amiga 500 is the superior games machine when compared to the IBM PS/2 Model 55SX.

There's a reason why IBM was pushed out of the PC market. IBM PS/2 series failed to recapture the PC market control.


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Massi 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 4:36:48
#453 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

If I am not mistaken, Fighting Spirit doesn' t seem to run at (constant) full frame rate (50 fps) on A1200, what was the reason for that ?



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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 5:25:29
#454 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Those are clear examples of what I've written, which led to unnatural positions for the characters.

Plus, you can also see the big character to the right on the first picture, which is completely unnatural for being one which jumped: it looks like that he's "doing" something completely different.


Replace the leg reach with an arm reach since they just similar amount of pixels.

Yes, the observation is valid for both arms and legs.
Quote:
The big man's arm being close to the body is a known martial art stance.

Sure, but not always (except when hitting, of course) and... even when jumping?!?
Quote:
----



Elfmania's male characters have longer upper body reach.

It's an artwork direction.

I don't think so.

If you see on this image the man with the sword that you've highlighted, he has only the left arm completely horizontal. The right arm "disappeared", whereas in that position it should be visible (at least partially, to the right side) to "balance" the body position and the effect of the hit with the other arm.


@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

If I am not mistaken, Fighting Spirit doesn' t seem to run at (constant) full frame rate (50 fps) on A1200, what was the reason for that ?

I don't recall it and I left the company before that it was worked on.

I can assume that it has the same problems of the OCS/ECS version, which runs at 25FPS with rare peaks of 17FPS: sometimes there was too much stuff to be rendered.

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Massi 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 5:48:23
#455 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

The low frame rate affects the playability.

Isn' t the A1200 capable enough to run Fighting Spirit at 50 fps ?

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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 5:56:06
#456 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

The low frame rate affects the playability.

Only if it's a recurring problem.

Occasional peaks are usually "absorbed" by the game play.
Quote:
Isn' t the A1200 capable enough to run Fighting Spirit at 50 fps ?

The original one just ported as it is to the Amiga 1200? Yes.

But as long as you add stuff (as it was made on the AGA version), then you're again crossing that border.

Which is what people expects from an AGA version: more colors, more stuff on the screen.

The problem is that all of this requires computational resources, which that machine unfortunately hasn't always.

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Massi 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 6:15:16
#457 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 627
From: Rome, Italy

@cdimauro

My feeling is that it was possible to reach 50 fps on A1200, perhaps using 64 real colors instead of 128.

I also feel that the game is not tailored for A1200, but it is rather a port with just minor enhancements.

What do you think of it ?


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Karlos 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 13:52:16
#458 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3565
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@cdimauro

Quote:

The problem is that all of this requires computational resources, which that machine unfortunately hasn't always.


AGA specification should've included 1MB of fast ram as standard is a hill I will die on!

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cdimauro 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 21:11:01
#459 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3104
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

My feeling is that it was possible to reach 50 fps on A1200, perhaps using 64 real colors instead of 128.

It should be possible, as I've stated before.
Quote:
I also feel that the game is not tailored for A1200, but it is rather a port with just minor enhancements.

What do you think of it ?

No, definitely it's not a just a port.

The graphic engine had huge changes compared to the OCS version. Also animations were added.

And graphic had a consistent rework to use 128 colors.

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

The problem is that all of this requires computational resources, which that machine unfortunately hasn't always.


AGA specification should've included 1MB of fast ram as standard is a hill I will die on!

Depends on what you need to achieve with that.

For 2D games I've already stated that the additional Fast RAM isn't needed. 128kB at most were ok, but nothing more.

Having 1MB+ Fast RAM would have mean that most of it should have been moved to Chip-Mem when needed (because then the Fast RAM is used to store a consistent part of the assets). And we know that Commodore engineers were so smart to cripple the Chip-Mem access, by forcing the CPU to wait an additional two cycles. So, moving data from Fast to Chip-Mem was already computationally expensive and thanks to them it's double that expensive!

So, before adding Fast RAM this ridiculous handicap should have been removed first.

However and as I game developer what I really missed from the chipset, and this since the beginning, was the possibility to flip the sprite and Blitter graphic. AT LEAST horizontally (which is the most important).

IMO this is one, if not The, biggest mistake made by Jay Miner (besides using planar graphics, of course. BTW, tomorrow my article is finally published). Instead of using that big part of the chip for implementing the HAM mode, the graphic flipping should have been the best usage possible for that silicon.

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Hammer 
Re: How good or bad was the AGA chipset in 1992/1993.
Posted on 28-Oct-2022 2:58:10
#460 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4656
From: Australia

@cdimauro

https://miharinne.artstation.com/projects/OoOxlv



Elfmania's unreleased art pack shows its object size budgeting.

It's a balancing act between the two player object sizes and gameworld effects.

Fightin' Spirit's Neo Geo influence followed a less successful franchise on the Neo Geo platform.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NvhhZPvaVQ
CD32's Fightin' Spirit AGA VS. NEO GEO's Fatal Fury. Posters preferred Shadow Fighter AGA to compete against Fatal Fury, not Fightin' Spirit AGA.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Oct-2022 at 03:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Oct-2022 at 03:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Oct-2022 at 02:58 AM.

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