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matthey 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 20:12:42
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1465
From: Kansas

samo79 Quote:

By their nature war conflicts do not spare anything .. especially in areas like Mariupol where civilians are prevented from escape in order to be constantly used as human shields by the neo-fascist extremists of the Azov battalion


I was already aware of the Azov Battalion and it was probably a bad idea to incorporate them into the Ukrainian national guard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

It is bizarre and really doesn't add up that the Azov Battalion has Jewish members but has warn Nazi gear into combat against the separatists. I suspect that Russian propaganda has made the wiki unreliable. There are ultra-nationalist, Neo-Nazi and fascist influences and political parties in Ukraine but I expect they are small compared to the Russian propaganda allegations. Again it doesn't make sense for Slavs and Jews who were victims of the Nazis to be Neo-Nazis. Ukrainian's leader Zelensky is Jewish. There are other Jews targeted by Putin as Neo-Nazis.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrainian-jews-push-back-against-putins-neo-nazi-claim-as-they-gear-up-for-battle/

And cases of Putin caught in his propaganda ironically paying a Jewish oligarch to have swastikas painted around Ukraine.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/businessman-paid-for-nazi-graffiti-in-ukraine-ahead-of-russian-invasion-report/

Putin would like people to believe that everyone who doesn't support Russia is a Neo-Nazi. While Communists and Nazis are on different ends of the political spectrum, Russia isn't really Communist and what is left of Russia has much in common with the Nazis like authoritarianism, nationalism, expansionism, hostile bullying and propaganda. Russia is looking more like Nazi Germany and China more like Imperial Japan everyday.

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kolla 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 20:32:07
#22 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2044
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Karlos

Russia created this threat to itself when it ignored the 1991 borders and drove countless families from their land in a relentless campaign of expansion and created a cycle of misery, suffering and violence that has persisted ever since.

See?

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K-L 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 21:24:59
#23 ]
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Joined: 3-Mar-2006
Posts: 1390
From: Oullins, France

@thread

Excellent thread...

Er, no actually. It was pretty obvious that this thread would end up like this (as if there were not enough sites and forums to argue about this conflict, someone had to bring this on AW).

I understand better why everyone gets rid of AmigaWorld.

Last edited by K-L on 28-Mar-2022 at 09:25 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 21:30:47
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6195
From: UK

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@Karlos

Russia created this threat to itself when it ignored the 1991 borders and drove countless families from their land in a relentless campaign of expansion and created a cycle of misery, suffering and violence that has persisted ever since.

See?


We left Russia to fend for itself in the 90s. Yes, we engaged with them in the 'markets' but we did nothing to help them stabilise their economy during hyper-inflation and didn't do anything other than give the oligarchs a safe place (London) to launder their ill gotten gains!

We promoted Russian corruption and greed without teaching them to value democracy and freedom! We helped create this monster because all we cared about was access to Russian gas! We hardly lifted a finger when Putin annexed the Crimea and we didn't hold them to account when they backed Assad's forces in Syria (yes I've heard, "the enemy of your enemy is your friend" i.e. ISIS but seriously)! Does Hitler's occupation of Czechoslovakia ring any bells for you Neville Chamberlain-a-like leaders out there? We did the same thing AGAIN!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Mar-2022 at 09:31 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 23:52:19
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6195
From: UK

... and in case the Czech example is too long ago, Russia have been using the existence of ethnically Russian communities in bordering countries as reason for invasions since 2008! I guess post credit crunch it would have been bad for the UK/EU economy to do the right thing and to have instigated sanctions on Russia at that time hence averting future conflicts in Europe including this present one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

We fail to learn from history at our peril!

Last edited by BigD on 28-Mar-2022 at 11:53 PM.

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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 28-Mar-2022 23:59:12
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6195
From: UK

... I guess our armed forces were too busy in Iraq to pose a credible deterrent to Russian aggression?

Also, the fighting in Syria helped Russia hone its "bombard cities into oblivion" war fighting strategy! The systematic flattening of Aleppo was kind of like a modern day Guernica as the "New Putin Soviets" prepared for Crimea and the Ukraine offensive!

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BigD 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 0:12:52
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6195
From: UK

@Thread

But hey, a black guy hit another black guy at the Oscars! And the world is asking,

Is it ok to think Will Smith is still a nice guy?

or

Can nice people make mistakes and do bad things?

Here's a clue:

Did Will Smith apologise to Chris Rock?

Does therefore Will Smith really think he made a 'mistake'?

If he doesn't think he made a mistake and Mr Rock isn't going to press charges then what really separates him from men like Putin?

This is all really about bullies and about how important it is to stand up to them in the first instance before they see that they can get away with it.

In addition, we shamelessly cancel culture J K Rowling over her feminist vs transgender "clash of rights" comments (not at all 'transphobic' as our woke journalists erroneously write) and allow Putin to claim a home run, "that wouldn't happen in Russia" free speech play in his own media!

Who exactly is the problem? Is it the bully or the culture/world order that allows them to get away with it because "the individual is nice really" in the case of Will Smith or "we can't upset them because we need their gas to cut out carbon from coal burning" in the case of Russia! The last time I checked tanks towing artillery have a large carbon footprint too as does the mixing of millions of cubic metres of concrete and the smelting of steel to rebuild the burning and pulverised Syrian, Yemeni and Ukrainian cities. And all because we haven't learnt to stand up to bullies however rich or powerful they are!

And yes, I include Yemen as an example because Saudi Arabia needs to be stood up to too. They shouldn't get extra training, equipment and logistical support to perpetuate the continued obliteration of civilian targets because we get profits from selling them the weapons to do it!

Last edited by BigD on 29-Mar-2022 at 12:26 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 29-Mar-2022 at 12:20 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 29-Mar-2022 at 12:16 AM.

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 1:17:05
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2043
From: N-Space

@Karlos

Quote:
When valid counterargument fails there's always insults and name calling to fall back on.

You haven't yet made a factual argument. It's all nonsense.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 10:02:17
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2248
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bison

What it is you dispute? You haven't actually said anything. Matthew may disagree also but he's actually making the effort to put his disagreement into a coherent point by point response. All you've done is resort to name calling.

Let me make it easy for you.

Do you dispute that the 1948 conflict resulted in the displacement of over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes?

Do you dispute that this number amounted to approximate half the population of the area at that time?

Do you dispute that Israel has subsequently encroached into the territory that the Palestinians were expelled from?

Do you dispute that Israel has since occupied this territory and built networks of roads and checkpoints that make it difficult for Palestinian people in what is still internationally recognised as their own territory to travel freely within it?

Do you dispute the fact that 74 years of this would lead to some subset disenfranchised Palestinians taking up armed struggle at what they see as oppression?

Do you dispute that when this happens, Israel with responds disproportionate force?

Do you dispute the asymmetry of the balance of power and the conflict that happens?

What is it you dispute? Or are you just going to throw a few more CBA insults.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 10:13:21
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2248
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@kolla

You state this as if it in some way is a counter. Do you think I support Russia in this? I don't. I merely point out the hypocrisy of governments that support one set of brutal arseholes as allies and only get upset when a different group of brutal areaholes make trouble.

And it's not just Israel, it's just an easy example of this hypocrisy. We overlook and forgive everything they do because their our ally. Saudi is another one. The UK sells them armaments they use to kill Yemenis with . The regime thinks nothing of mass executing dissidents. But they buy arms and sell oil so we overlook all of it.

In some weird alternative universe, where all else is the same except that these countries are not our allies, they would be portrayed as brutal evil regimes, subject to sanctions, etc.

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 14:51:39
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2043
From: N-Space

@Karlos

Well, since you asked, the so-called armed struggle of the Palestinians is in reality terrorists firing rockets into Israeli communities with the goal of maximizing civilian casualties. The Israelis respond with restraint, trying to kill the terrorists while minimizing civilian casualties. Unfortunately, innocent people die, since the Palestinian terrorists are cowards that shoot rockets from hospitals and schools, and use children as human shields. This has been going on for years, and there is no end in sight.

Quote:
Or are you just going to throw a few more CBA insults.

I don't know what "CBA insults" are, but I stand by my assessment that you're living in some kind of fantasy world, where morality is inverted and evil is good, and good is evil.

Last edited by bison on 29-Mar-2022 at 02:57 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 15:04:34
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2248
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bison

Is this your idea of avoiding civilian casualties is it?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head-1.7542674

A rocket is an imprecise weapon. A sniper rifle is not.

Cue "a few bad apples". You can find plenty of similar incidents.

What kind of message does this send? Does it give any incentive for the rockets to stop? Of course it doesn't

Your language reveals your bias. Is firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas cowardly? Yes. What is sniping at children?

Last edited by Karlos on 29-Mar-2022 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 29-Mar-2022 at 03:05 PM.

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 15:07:49
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2043
From: N-Space

@Karlos

I can cherry-pick articles too.

Last edited by bison on 29-Mar-2022 at 03:08 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 15:14:37
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2248
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bison

So what? Do you have a justification or do you accept that that was abhorrent?

There's no need to cherry pick, incidents like this are not uncommon.

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bison 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 15:32:22
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2043
From: N-Space

@Karlos

This happened too:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/israeli-rabbi-with-four-children-expecting-fifth-stabbed-to-death-suspected-terror-attack

Do you have a justification or do you accept that that was abhorrent?

You see, this game could go on for pages and pages, but in the end neither of us will convince the other of anything, so it's not really worth playing.

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matthey 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 29-Mar-2022 23:43:31
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1465
From: Kansas

@Karlos
There is a new article addressing your concerns for the Palestinians as they have renewed pressure to impose sanctions on Israel comparing it to Russia.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/despite-palestinian-hopes-russia-style-western-sanctions-wont-be-applied-to-israel/

The conclusion of the article is similar to what I have been saying that the Palestinians have shit in their own nest. I believe there is still a disconnect that many people don't get as outsiders. The Palestinians attacked Jewish people the day they declared independence and haven't stopped since. The following is a good documentary about part of it.

https://tubitv.com/movies/437591/a-wing-and-a-prayer

At the time, most of the world was against a Jewish state. Even the U.S. and Britain supported the Arab nations instead of Israel because they were allies with oil. The Arab countries and their allies in the UN likewise had more influence than Israel by itself and the UN is still used as a tool against Israel today. While open attacks by Arab nations have ceased, money from both nations and organizations fund terrorist activity by the Palestinians. The Palestinians were allowed to create their own governments and chose governments which include terrorists like Hamas and the Islamic Jihad that refuse to recognize a Jewish state and have even payed bounties for Palestinian terrorist attacks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Jihad_Movement_in_Palestine

Iran had become one of the major sources of Palestinian terrorist money before some of it was diverted to Yemen and Syrian wars. Corruption results in humanitarian aid diverted to terrorism as Hamas is practically an organized criminal network as well. If the Palestinian people had chose the more moderate Fatah for their government then relations would be much better but the majority of Palestinians, as elections show, would rather wipe out Israel than make peace. The situation is perpetuated by early brainwashing and propaganda. Children are often victims because they use slings or throw rocks from a young age and can become suicide bombers by their mid-teens.

The Times of Israel has another new article about why Ukraine is getting more attention than the more devastating Middle East wars.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/qatar-saudi-arabia-say-west-neglects-mideast-conflicts-but-responds-to-ukraine/

The idea is that the Middle East wars, despite many more dead and wounded, don't threaten the West like the war in Ukraine. Putin finally crossed some invisible red line that triggered a we might be next reaction from Europe. The media coverage and huge nuclear arsenals make it that much more real to us and dangerous to our security. Rising commodity prices, especially for energy, and inflation have quickly affected our pocket books. This is not over either and still has the potential to turn into WWIII. Putin may settle for occupying or annexing the Eastern regions of Ukraine, for now, but he will likely want the devastating sanctions lifted and Western nations will be reluctant to do so. The deadline for requiring natural gas payments in Russian rubles from Europe is coming up and he could cut off Europe choosing to sell natural gas to China instead. Other Russian neighboring nations have moved toward joining NATO as a result of the Ukraine war and that would be seen as a major threat even though it is a result of Putin's war rather than the West pushing membership. War could expand to the Middle East as pipelines try to supply Europe and Russia and Iran try to sabotage attempts. The Iranian cruise missile attacks on Iraq recently now have a new motive.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-bombed-iraqs-kurdish-region-over-natural-gas-plan-involving-israel-report/

The good news is that Turkey has become more friendly to the West and is negotiating with Kurds in Iraq instead of attacking them which opens up the possibility to supply Europe with natural gas. Turkish relations with Israel may also be improving which may open up the possibility to supply Europe with natural gas from the Energy Triangle in offshore Israel to Turkey, a shorter route than the U.S. nixed EastMed pipeline. Iran's missile attack sends a signal though and Putin won't like being cut out. The U.S. with Biden's recent trip to Brussels had him offer to supply Europe with LNG shipped across from the U.S. but this would only supply a small portion of needs and U.S. LNG terminals are already operating at near full capacity under contracts while Europe lacks receiving terminals where needed. It can take years to build terminals and pipelines over long distances (Kurdish gas in Iraq is near an existing pipeline in Turkey). Saudi Arabia and its ally UAE have moved away from the West as the U.S. Democrats have held them more accountable for lack of morality and are negotiating the Iran nuclear deal which they do not support. This means they are less likely to increase OPEC oil production and UAE has become a sanctuary for Russian oligarchs which moves them closer to Russia. A thawing of relations between Saudi Arabia and Iran could end the Yemen war but also leave them, including Russia, controlling a large portion of the world's energy. Israel has so far tried to remain neutral as they do not support the Iran nuclear deal either but they would almost certainly choose the U.S. side as we have been one of their best allies in previous wars. If war was viewed as inevitable, China would support Russia perhaps by launching a surprise attack on U.S bases in the Pacific and then invading Taiwan. Unlike WWII, the majority of oil production which is so important to winning wars would likely come from Eastern nations as U.S. Democrats and Europeans continue to sabotage oil production.

West: U.S., Europe & NATO nations, Israel, Japan, South Korea
East: Russia, China, Iran, Syria, North Korea

The implications so far for the Amiga are minimal. Ukraine was unlikely to have many Amiga computers or users as they were slower to break free from Russian control after the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989. Poland, to the West of Ukraine, has a large Amiga following which developed late so many Amiga users are younger than in areas farther west. Perhaps many of their Amiga computers came used from further west as price was important to the economy that had been suppressed by Russia. Even if the rest of Europe is not invaded, it is likely to be poorer due to high energy prices and the resulting lower economic output and higher military spending. Expensive AmigaOS 4 computers are likely less appealing in this economic environment where they already had lackluster sales in a better environment. THEA500 is more affordable and will likely sell much better as that is the best affordable hardware that could be accomplished for the Amiga despite the limitations of being a gimmick that only plays a few games. Amiga has her own seemingly endless wars for control and her share of unreasonable leaders too.

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Rob 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 31-Mar-2022 1:33:03
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6149
From: S.Wales

@Karlos

Quote:
European governments were quick to open their doors for Ukrainian refugees. Even the pariah state ****hole I have to call come that has actively been pursuing a "hostile" policy towards anyone desperate enough to risk their lives drowning in the channel to get here has asked people to "adopt" displaced ukrainian families.


Picking them up in the channel and paying hotels £120 a day to house them and any other allowances doesn't seem very hostile to me. I suspect that if this support wasn't available you wouldn't find many attempting to get here.

To be honest I'd rather see our government supporting refugees in the neighbouring countries they initially flee to. Not because I dislike foreigners but because £350 a month plus the £10,000 per pesron given to the local authority would go a lot further in Poland or Moldova.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 31-Mar-2022 1:57:22
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 746
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@matthey

Friend matthey,

I dare to remind you that while you spend vast swathes of oh so precious time typing such copious banters, piles and piles or rims go unsold.

Family first, matthey,
family first.




/mega

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Signman 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 31-Mar-2022 12:43:21
#39 ]
Member
Joined: 16-Aug-2016
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@matthey

What does the United States look like?
Nothing bad here folks, go play your Cannon Fodder.

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kolla 
Re: Retro-computing museum destroyed in Ukraine
Posted on 31-Mar-2022 13:57:10
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2044
From: Trondheim, Norway

One cannot house and feed people with money allone. One difference with refugees from Ukraine is that they don’t have visa requirements when entering Schengen, and once entered they are free to go anywhere… so logistics is quite different.

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