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Hondo 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 5:46:39
#21 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1370
From: Denmark

So where can one follow the ongoing legal stuff? do we have an official link to the court case? or other important links to follow?

I know nr6 usually posts when there is something new, and I'm glad for that. But sometimes it can be quite confusing with links to old posts, etc. and no explanation/interpretation to whats going on.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 8:27:22
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10924
From: Greensborough, Australia

@V8

Quote:
The only other real revenue stream I could see would be OS4 for Tabor. It is obvious that AEON and Hyperion are not on good terms anymore, and OS4 for tabor is held hostage because of it.


Not only that, OS4 for all platforms is stalled because of it. But I think the ship has sailed for Tabor. 5 year old PPC chips are like 10 year old x86 chips and that 1222 CPU must be ten years old by now.

Isn't it Murphy's PPC Law? With every year x86 doubles in speed and PPC slows by half.

Quote:
Why else do you think AEON is rewriting perfectly fine OS4 components from scratch? Just for fun?


What do you mean rewriting perfectly? They are not perfect. Oh wait, perfectly fine, sorry my mistake.

The components already exist, so why rewrite them? That will take years! Also they can't rewrite them, they need the source. So they are going to redo over 35 years of source codes. If they had OS3.1 source to begin with, then they will only need to redo about 20 years of work. AROS and MorphOS have already done the work of copying AmigaOS so why are they doing it again? I bet it won't be a cheap copy but a copy is a copy. All this effort for a copy. They might as well work with the AROS and MorphOS teams as they are almost doing the same thing. The end result has the sane goals.

Quote:
OS4 has always been shipped in incomplete state since the very first relabeled board by Alan, missing ethernet drivers, missing sound, missing dma, missing drivers for Xena. Shipping an incomplete version of OS4 is normal in amiga land. So I don't buy the "it is not ready" argument at all.


In reality it should only be incomplete with a developer pre-release. But, you've mixed a few things in there, XE and X1000 in the same sentence. Some XE boards, had no sound chip for some reason, like mine. DMA can't fully work on built in hardware due to fault in design. The X1000 misses an Ethernet driver because it is faulty even though a perfectly working Linux driver exists. Xena was little more than a gimmick but they did provide some kind of SDK for it. What drivers are missing for it?

OS4 has been officially incomplete since FE was brought out. Because you then need to buy Enhancer or other confusing graphic products to get a video card driver. Or to replace components broken in FE. And then it's extra software keeping up to date complicating it. And with that you risk overwriting system components with Enhancer versions which can be faulty. OS4 lives in a strange world.

Last edited by Hypex on 19-Apr-2022 at 08:32 AM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 11:58:30
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@matthey

Very well thought out review of the situation.
The only part I can not either confirm or deny:

Quote:
I believe Cloanto/Amiga Corporation could license "Amiga" branding now that they have acquired the Amiga Inc. IP but couldn't license it when Retro Games Ltd obtained the license.


btw-I basically stopped posting about trademark objections when the number became somewhat overwhelming. There have been others. So, I go back to the statement I've repeated over and over. Until the lawsuits are resolved I don't believe the freedom to move forward exists.

#6

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number6 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 12:06:09
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@Hondo

Quote:
I know nr6 usually posts when there is something new, and I'm glad for that. But sometimes it can be quite confusing with links to old posts, etc. and no explanation/interpretation to whats going on.


There is nothing going on. There is no court activity to report .
As I said before, the case was moved to Washington State initially with the notion that the same judge handling the bulk of the work in 2007 would have the familiarity necessary to move things forward.
Since Judge Martinez achieved "senior" status, it was clearly defined that such a status means he is headed for retirement. This definition does not mean he will not complete his work on the current lawsuits, but that is a possibility.
If so, someone else would have to learn all the ins and outs of what New York called "complicated"...all over again.

In the meantime more and more IP thieves and squatters come out of the woodwork almost every week.

#6

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number6 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 12:45:16
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@thread

Off-topic

I see the 2 news postings on the front page (AmigaJam) that must have confused almost everyone here have had the author changed to "anonymous".

Guess why.

#6

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matthey 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 19-Apr-2022 23:39:25
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Very well thought out review of the situation.
The only part I can not either confirm or deny:

Quote:
I believe Cloanto/Amiga Corporation could license "Amiga" branding now that they have acquired the Amiga Inc. IP but couldn't license it when Retro Games Ltd obtained the license.



Everything from Retro Games Ltd mentions their license coming from Cloanto. Since Cloanto transferred all but the disputed IP to Amiga Corporation shortly after the Amiga Inc. IP acquisition, I assumed that the Retro Games Ltd. license predates the acquisition. The "Amiga" branding should have come with the Amiga Inc. IP acquisition and I believe Amiga Corporation has successfully acquired the "Amiga" trademark so I believe they could use or license Amiga branding today.

#6 Quote:

btw-I basically stopped posting about trademark objections when the number became somewhat overwhelming. There have been others. So, I go back to the statement I've repeated over and over. Until the lawsuits are resolved I don't believe the freedom to move forward exists.


We wouldn't want forum users to think you were spamming by reporting on all the petty objections. It looks bad to be a petty obstructionist and staller which maybe Ben will learn the hard way with the Amiga lawsuits.

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number6 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 0:13:27
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@matthey

Quote:
Since Cloanto transferred all but the disputed IP to Amiga Corporation


Again, Hyperion refuses to accept this, hence the reluctance to use the trademark.

Yes, Amiga, Boing Ball, Checkmark etc. are all registered trademarks of Amiga Corporation at uspto. But that doesn't mean the brand or ownership is recognized outside of that sphere.

We went over this with Intellivision, where I laid out all the steps taken and results with documentation for each step on their "removed" forum. When I finished I asked the CEO if I had correctly illustrated the situation and he confirmed it.

When both sides in a "conflict" tell you the exact same thing, you kinda have to lean towards it being the truth. But maybe that's just me...

#6

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matthey 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 1:09:16
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Again, Hyperion refuses to accept this, hence the reluctance to use the trademark.


I don't see how Hyperion can challenge the transfer of any IP other than IP licensed to Hyperion in the 2009 agreement. Any challenge of ownership of IP outside of the agreement looks to me like a violation of the 2009 agreement which could be grounds for termination. Hyperion can only reject signing off on a transfer of IP involved in the contract the way I read it. Am I missing something?

#6 Quote:

Yes, Amiga, Boing Ball, Checkmark etc. are all registered trademarks of Amiga Corporation at uspto. But that doesn't mean the brand or ownership is recognized outside of that sphere.


It would take someone insanely arrogant to challenge Amiga Corporation on this. Ben!

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number6 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 1:31:10
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@matthey

Again, CFO of Intellivision clearly stated they could not deal with the opposition issue at the time he made the statement, since "2" companies claimed to own the brand.
As you know this was since settled a different way, getting assurance as to how the "Amico" mark was to be used.

I realize this is hard for you to accept, but it's true. heh.

just for reference when I mentioned all of this before
Sorry, can't restore the link in the above because the site removed the entire forum and wayback never archived the page.

Added: Since you seem to be trying to understand this in terms of a timeline, this link might assist you for both the RetroGames Ltd. "intended" trademark as well as the one they ended up using:
RetroGames Ltd. trademarks

#6

Last edited by number6 on 20-Apr-2022 at 01:55 AM.
Last edited by number6 on 20-Apr-2022 at 01:43 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 3:41:57
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2106
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:
I tried to tell people years ago that the 68k Amiga was popular enough to make an ASIC and even tried to make it happen


You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?

If it was popular enough, it would have happened.
How is that not abundantly obvious to anyone with the capacity to tie their own laces?

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agami 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 4:46:29
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1288
From: Melbourne, Australia

@fishy_fis

Quote:
If it was popular enough, it would have happened. How is that not abundantly obvious to anyone with the capacity to tie their own laces?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc? You have much to learn old padawan.

Capitalism 101: It's not enough that something makes money, it needs to make the right amount of money. Many things that are popular are never funded. TV series, movie franchises, books, food items, which are popular get cancelled all the time; Not because they are not making money, but because they are not making enough money.

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kolla 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 6:09:18
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2419
From: Trondheim, Norway

The THEA500 Mini does NOT come with AmigaOS, it only comes with a few (two?) old kickstarts, which in the context of launching WHDLoad slaves directly from Amiberry/whdboot, only function as runtime libraries - not operating system components.

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ferrels 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 7:01:43
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 913
From: Arizona

@agami

Quote:
It's not enough that something makes money



Sorry to disagree with you on this point, but fishy_fis's logic is spot on. He never made mention of money, capitalism or even economics. The Amiga never had the popularity to become a contender in the home computer world in the late 80's/early 90's so it's insanity to claim that it will become popular enough in the 21st century to justify conversion to a SOC/ASIC. The Amiga and the Atari were mere curiosities that had decent followings for a few years but both were eventually crushed by the popularity of x86 PC's and Macs.

I also have to agree with fishy_fis when he accuses matthey of living in some sort of fantasy world. A few months ago matthey was claiming that classic AmigaOS was a perfect candidate for a RTOS. That has to be one of the most bizarre claims that I've run across in the world of computing and shows a profound lack of understanding of what comprises a RTOS. I suspect these profound "deficits" that he exhibits when making such statements also extend to economics and other fields where he attempts to crush opposing opinions with an overwhelming barrage of useless info, gleaned mostly from wikipedia. A few weeks ago he was claiming to be an expert in economics because he claimed he had made some promising investments and stating that an Amiga ASIC could be produced at the cost of a just a few dollars per unit. Again, I'll state that there's no popular demand for such a product to drive its production cost to levels that low. He really needs to take some courses that explain supply, demand, economies of scale and the forces that drive production prices vs market prices. But I suspect his ego won't allow that and he'll continue pandering to the delusional, the social rejects, and the mentally unstable types who show up here week after week, month after month, claiming that the Amiga will rise again and take the world by storm. I've been a lurker at this site since around 2000 and a member of this site since 2005, and 22 years later it's the same old broken record by the same handful of clowns......It's no wonder that Gunnar kicked him off the Apollo/Vampire team....

Last edited by ferrels on 20-Apr-2022 at 07:06 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 7:24:03
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Again, CFO of Intellivision clearly stated they could not deal with the opposition issue at the time he made the statement, since "2" companies claimed to own the brand.
As you know this was since settled a different way, getting assurance as to how the "Amico" mark was to be used.

I realize this is hard for you to accept, but it's true. heh.


I find anything from Intellivision suspect but I see your point. Any conflicting or unsettled claims to the Amiga IP would discourage licensing. It may still be possible to license it and Amiga Corporation could use Amiga branding itself. Amiga Corporation would want to believe, based on legal advice, that they have a strong legal argument before doing so. Hyperion has likely used IP with questionable legality although it could put them out of business. Maybe Ben thought Hyperion's situation was so desperate that they had little to lose but they had another option which was diplomacy and cooperation (kind of like Putin brainwashing himself into thinking he had no other option but to invade Ukraine). Ben would rather roll the dice with winner take all after trying to wait out Amiga Corporation hoping it disappears.

I see "THEAMIGAMINI" trademark of Retro Games Ltd but they could lose the licensing of IP like kickstarts if Amiga Corporation doesn't like the "Amiga" name in it. It's difficult to monitor every potentially conflicting trademark registration. The most obvious violations of being too similar are often turned down as happened with Hyperion trying to trademark "AmigaOne".

fishy_fis Quote:

You really do live in a fantasy world don't you?

If it was popular enough, it would have happened.
How is that not abundantly obvious to anyone with the capacity to tie their own laces?


I expect THEA500 Mini to sell hundreds of thousands of units and, if the price was dropped and value increased significantly with a 68k Amiga SoC ASIC, unit sales could easily double. THEA500 is a toy doing little for the Amiga user base where a more capable general purpose retro Amiga could reinvigorate the Amiga. In my opinion, the case for an ASIC is compelling. Getting Amiga businesses to work together may be "fantasy" but sales of hundred of units of AmigaNone hardware isn't cutting it while THEA500 Mini is selling hundreds of thousands of units. Here is the opportunity to take a chance with competitive mass production or it can be ignored and guaranteed failure achieved with the niche market status quo.

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kolla 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 7:52:33
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2419
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ferrels

Quote:

I also have to agree with fishy_fis when he accuses matthey of living in some sort of fantasy world. A few months ago matthey was claiming that classic AmigaOS was a perfect candidate for a RTOS. That has to be one of the most bizarre claims that I've run across in the world of computing and shows a profound lack of understanding of what comprises a RTOS. I suspect these profound "deficits" that he exhibits when making such statements also extend to economics and other fields where he attempts to crush opposing opinions with an overwhelming barrage of useless info, gleaned mostly from wikipedia. A few weeks ago he was claiming to be an expert in economics because he claimed he had made some promising investments and stating that an Amiga ASIC could be produced at the cost of a just a few dollars per unit. Again, I'll state that there's no popular demand for such a product to drive its production cost to levels that low. He really needs to take some courses that explain supply, demand, economies of scale and the forces that drive production prices vs market prices.


And isn't it funny... I agree with most of this.

Quote:
]But I suspect his ego won't allow that and he'll continue pandering to the delusional, the social rejects, and the mentally unstable types who show up here week after week, month after month, claiming that the Amiga will rise again and take the world by storm. I've been a lurker at this site since around 2000 and a member of this site since 2005, and 22 years later it's the same old broken record by the same handful of clowns......


Sounds like some other forum I know of...

Quote:
It's no wonder that Gunnar kicked him off the Apollo/Vampire team....


First of all... teamS - plural - of which the Vampire team is no more.

And from what I can recall, Matthey barely had any time in the "apollo team" either, and he tends to write more about Natami days. And "kicked off"? More like left on his own accord. Like so many.

Gunnar had his own Great Plans for the apollo core 68080, he tried for years to attract people from "outside world", and the word "amiga" wasn't even mentioned on the www.apollo-core.com site for years. But that sad fact is that those in "the 68k market" (the real one, not the one Matthey dreams of) who want/need 68k softcores, they already have it, and a superfast, efficient, superscalar yadida 68k core has close to no use today, ASIC or FPGA. Especially so when it's so "blackboxed" and secret like the AC68080 currently is. Ah yes, and where is that open source SAGA that was "promised" almost 5 years ago now?

Last edited by kolla on 20-Apr-2022 at 07:52 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 8:03:54
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2419
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:


I expect THEA500 Mini to sell hundreds of thousands of units and, if the price was dropped and value increased significantly with a 68k Amiga SoC ASIC, unit sales could easily double.


But HOW (!!!) could you EVER make a propduct like the THEA500 Mini using just a cheap 68k?!

You fail to comprehend what REALLY consitutes this product !!

68k-only would mean...
* bye bye to most USB support, so no USB storage and you'd be lucky to to even have USB mouse/keyboard/joystick - have you paid ANY attention to how this works with the Apollo V4?
* bye bye to fancy carousel with soothing background music
* bye bye to all display effects, scaling, fake scanlines etc. for HDMI
* bye bye to ...

Really, what you would be left with, would essentially by a Mimimig - like the original Minimig. Well, we already have that, and though popular among more purist retro gamers, it doesn't exactly sell in hundreds of thousands.

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number6 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 11:50:48
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11479
From: In the village

@matthey

Quote:
The most obvious violations of being too similar are often turned down as happened with Hyperion trying to trademark "AmigaOne".


Actually no. The uspto document basically stated that if/when "Amiga" registered that the likelihood existed that Hyperion's uspto filings for both "AmigaOS" and "AmigaOne" would be subject to the "confusion" clause. But that's not what happened.

AmigaOS was treated that way, but not AmigaOne. So Hyperion refiled for the AmigaOne trademark. Then Amiga Corporation/Cloanto filed an opposition against Hyperion's attempt to reregister "AmigaOne".
It should be obvious why. If one was confusing, why was not the other?

Then Hyperion filed a document disagreeing with the uspto decision about AmigaOS.
see argument

Long story short. Both are suspended and therefore -not- registered to anyone at uspto until the lawsuits are addressed.

#6

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Nonefornow 
Re: Amiga legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 14:43:44
#38 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 339
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@Hondo

Quote:
Does anybody know what the actual legal situation about Amiga/AmigaOS/A-Eon/Hyperion is now?


From the comments above and other threads on the subject I can surmise that the situation is fluid. Same as it ever was.

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Hypex 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 17:11:08
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10924
From: Greensborough, Australia

@number6

Quote:
AmigaOS was treated that way, but not AmigaOne. So Hyperion refiled for the AmigaOne trademark. Then Amiga Corporation/Cloanto filed an opposition against Hyperion's attempt to reregister "AmigaOne".
It should be obvious why. If one was confusing, why was not the other?


I don't know why Cloanto would be upset over an "AmigaOne" trade mark. It has nothing to do with 68K Amiga they made a business of. It doesn't even relate to OS4 Classic which Amiga Forever can run.

Do Cloanto want to license OS4 for Classic emulation use? Will Hyperion counter sue Cloanto (again) over illegal use of OS4 Classic in Amiga Forver?

Perhaps Cloanto want to "nag a ram" with the "AmigaOne" trademark because of the "egomania."

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matthey 
Re: Legal situation 2022
Posted on 20-Apr-2022 18:59:22
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Actually no. The uspto document basically stated that if/when "Amiga" registered that the likelihood existed that Hyperion's uspto filings for both "AmigaOS" and "AmigaOne" would be subject to the "confusion" clause. But that's not what happened.

AmigaOS was treated that way, but not AmigaOne. So Hyperion refiled for the AmigaOne trademark. Then Amiga Corporation/Cloanto filed an opposition against Hyperion's attempt to reregister "AmigaOne".
It should be obvious why. If one was confusing, why was not the other?


I missed that info, thanks. At first glance, it appears "AmigaOS" and "AmigaOne" would be similar to "Amiga" but I suppose there could be differences. "AmigaOS" sounds like an OS for Amiga but what is "AmigaOne" to Amiga?

#6 Quote:

Then Hyperion filed a document disagreeing with the uspto decision about AmigaOS.
see argument

Long story short. Both are suspended and therefore -not- registered to anyone at uspto until the lawsuits are addressed.


Seems fair but it is not keeping "AmigaOS" from being used. As I recall, CBM didn't have half as many Amiga related trademarks as are being applied for in the current trademark and lawsuit war.

Hypex Quote:

I don't know why Cloanto would be upset over an "AmigaOne" trade mark. It has nothing to do with 68K Amiga they made a business of. It doesn't even relate to OS4 Classic which Amiga Forever can run.

Do Cloanto want to license OS4 for Classic emulation use? Will Hyperion counter sue Cloanto (again) over illegal use of OS4 Classic in Amiga Forever?

Perhaps Cloanto want to "nag a ram" with the "AmigaOne" trademark because of the "egomania."


Cloanto was an entity as part of the Amiga parties suing Hyperion before the Amiga Inc. IP was purchased. Hyperion blocked the ownership transfer of IP they had licensed from Amiga Inc. to Amiga Corporation likely including "AmigaOne" and perhaps "AmigaOS". As I recall, Amiga Corporation or the short lived predecessor didn't have standing and/or tried too late to join the lawsuit. I doubt Cloanto/Amiga Corporation want to use "AmigaOne" but the claim of ownership of "AmigaOne" and "AmigaOS" is a potential avenue to claiming ownership of "Amiga" and appears to be forbidden in the 2009 agreement. "AmigaOS" is important to Cloanto/Amiga Corporation.

It appears Amiga Inc. paid for AmigaOS 4 and became the owner even though Hyperion has failed to delivered the source. If anything, Hyperion would need to sue Cloanto to stop them from using AmigaOS 4 in Amiga Forever.

Last edited by matthey on 20-Apr-2022 at 07:02 PM.

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