Quality of life living in a city where electric vehicles have pretty much taken dominance… hugely improved!!

I don’t have a car, and simple math is that for the price of a car, plus taxes, fuel (whichever), maintenance etc. we can simply just the taxi more or less at whim and it’s still cheaper. But we mostly use bus, bicycle and trains, and occasionally fly long distance. Or the boat. I often been asked how I could afford traveling so much through my life, and not owning a car is really the number one reason.

Bonus of not having a car - I can have beers whenever it’s beer a clock.

Last edited by kolla on 25-May-2022 at 07:32 AM.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@DiscreetFX

The argument about no filling stations is pretty weak. There were barely any charging stations when electric cars were introduced. Nobody is making the claim that hydrogen doesn't require infrastructure, but you're kidding yourself if you think the infrastructure for electric vehicles didn't require investment too. If there was a will to use hydrogen as a fuel, it could be retrofitted to existing filling stations. EV is definitely good for urban settings but I wouldn't want to depend on the alleged driving range day in day out if I had to travel further.

As for the Hindenburg comparison, ignoring the fact that liquid hydrogen will flash vapouise on contact with any ambient temperature surface and loft rapidly away from the scene, are you any more likely to survive a catastrophic battery failure in an EV? Have you seen a lithium fire?

Speaking of green, do you know how green lithium refining is? Lithium may be the third most abundant element in the universe, but here, on Earth, it's bound into comparatively few useful mineral sources. And don't forget the other materials used in lithium ion cells.

Now don't get me wrong. I'd rather have electric than petrol for my every day driving cycle. When I commuted, I walked and used the tram. However I just don't think electric road transit alone is the answer. You desperately need higher energy densities if you want to tackle shipping, flight, etc.

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Quote:

Karlos wrote: Speaking of green, do you know how green lithium refining is? Lithium may be the third most abundant element in the universe, but here, on Earth, it's bound into comparatively few useful mineral sources. And don't forget the other materials used in lithium ion cells.

Also,

don't forget that if we want to help friends BigD, Qbit. Matthey etc.,
we'll need most of Earth's lithium reserves.






/mega!!

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CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Prrrrpft

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@Karlos

Major difference is you can charge at home with EVs and commercial charging stations are cheap to install not millions of dollars like Hydrogen. In the US if you don’t live in California refueling a fuel cell car is next to impossible. This has severely limited the market and appeal for many many years.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @Karlos Major difference is you can charge at home with EVs and commercial charging stations are cheap to install not millions of dollars like Hydrogen. In the US if you don’t live in California refueling a fuel cell car is next to impossible. This has severely limited the market and appeal for many many years.

Major difference compared to what? You can plug in your EV at home. Brilliant. You still can't drive it beyond a certain distance and hope to get back without a charging station en-route. You also can't use batteries for a whole array of other transport either, because the energy density is so poor.

Sure, EV are low hanging fruit but they aren't particularly as green as manufacturers would have you believe. Assuming the rest of the car manufacturing is equivalently (non)green as building a petrol driven car, the amount of CO2 produced manufacturing the lithium cells for a modern EV alone isn't paid off until you've driven it a 3-4 years typically for full cycle mileage. If you are just using it as a town runaround, longer still.

Hydrogen needs infrastructure. However, the infrastructure it needs is a revamp of infrastructure we already have, not some gift from aliens: the ability to safely store combustible liquids and fill fuel tanks with them. The challenge for hydrogen is the need for cryogenic storage and safe venting. I wouldn't say it's rocket science, though rocket scientists have safely used hydrogen as a propellant so maybe it is.

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@Karlos

I'm going to have to disappoint you on your hydrogen dream. The R&D has been done. Hydrogen does not seem to be suitable for surface vehicles. It appears to be very useful for aviation though. The problem is the way Hydrogen burns. As well the fuel density is very low.

Electric vehicles are one answer to the pollution problem. Another one is to use less powerful gas engines. I am not a fan of small diesel engines. You are right in one ting though. There has to be a better solution than Lithium batteries. It will be only a matter of time before a major disaster occurs.

Going back to Hydrogen for a moment--think of all the water vapor that would be released into the atmosphere if we started burning hydrogen. This I'm sure would greatly impact climate change. NASA has done a great deal of work on the use of hydrogen as a fuel. The results as a whole are not very positive.

We'll probably be using mainly fossil fuels until electric vehicles become better.

@Neuf

We seem to currently be in the process of green taxing our UK citizens to oblivion and given the cost of living crisis I expect 'climate change' issues to fall down the pecking order of pressing concerns for Boris and co.

The way I see it when sea levels rise we'll help the Netherlands and Bangladesh to relocate or shore up their sea defences (a tall order and very expensive). We'll all pay more for insurance and we'll all lose more friends and loved ones to storm and extreme weather events. Many animal and plant species will die out. Ecosystems will adapt but many not quick enough. We however will adapt when forced to. All this fear mongering is not the touch paper for change that Greta Thunberg and her ilk thinks it is. The Insulate Britain brigade have also set their cause back IMHO by angering the British public. Human nature dictates defiance in the face of adversity but naivity and 'sticking our heads in the sand' until the adversity comes!

As for Elon Musk buying the Amiga...

... the guys a complete TOOL, who cheated with Amber Heard while she was still married and should be launched into space himself!

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@Neuf

It's not a dream, it's the realisation that lithium ion powered vehicles aren't going to save the planet and that we need to think of all viable alternatives too.

As for hydrogen being unsuitable, I'm sure the same was said of EVs for the last 100 years too. The point about water vapour is a good one as it's an extremely potent greenhouse gas. However, cloud cover also contributes to increasing the overall albedo so it would be interesting to know the net overall effect.

If not used for combustion directly, it may prove suitable as a mechanism for keeping EV topped up en route on longer journeys with fuel cells and banks of cells. That said, current hydrogen fuel cell technology is probably less efficient overall than combustion.

For me, EVs need to evolve a lot further before they will have a tangible impact on emissions. Either that or people have to give up owning cars for just a couple of years on finance deals. If you don't drive your EV long enough to recover the emissions cost of producing the cells that power it before getting the next, you're not really saving the world much.

Batteries, at least as we know them today, are not the future.

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@Karlos

Let’s not forget this classic mode of transport!

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/german-farmer-ditches-suv-for-horse-drawn-carriage-amid-soaring-gas-prices-189276.html

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@DiscreetFX

Horses have more than one kind of emission to worry about ...

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @cdimauro Millions of EVs have been sold worldwide and customers love them.

The same applies to billions of CEs and their customers.

I'm much more satisfied with the CE cars that I had (I LOVED my first company car: a 330M Sport) than that with EVs.
Quote:

Many more models are coming out in the coming months so sales will continue to increase at an exponential rate.

That's only because governments are pushing with A LOT of benefits & bonuses AND they are shutting down CEs.

But the cost is still too much, so the vast majority of people cannot afford it. And they haven't anymore the advantage of electricity costing less than gasoline.

For example, when I had to decide about the next company car, I first took a look a the EV Mini and at the PEHV, and they were too much expensive, even with a 75% leasing advantange. In fact, the Mini with gasoline costed way less. Then I've decide to go for it.

To made made no sense at all to chose a EV: why I've to spend more for it? The benzine model costed less, and I've chosen it...

The state is already stealing me A LOT of money for the green washing propaganda, and I didn't wanted to further contribute.
Quote:

I will agree with you if customers have no way to charge at home or at work that can be a problem. Since modern electric cars go 200 or 300 hundred miles per full charge most peoples daily driving requirements are met by charging overnight if they can charge at home.

Charging at home is something that A LOT of people can't do. And many cannot even charge at work.

Could you please tell me what happens to them once there'll be no possibility to buy a CE car?
Quote:

Hydrogen cars are still a non starter since there is almost no place to fill up with Hydrogen. And that looks like it’s not changing anytime soon. Also, people have fear of a Hindenburg type accident. Weather or not this could happen is besides the point. People are afraid it could happen.

Karlos has already replied, and I agree with him.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: Quality of life living in a city where electric vehicles have pretty much taken dominance… hugely improved!!

Sorry, I can't appreciate: the quality of live is still very good on my area.
Quote:

I don’t have a car, and simple math is that for the price of a car, plus taxes, fuel (whichever), maintenance etc. we can simply just the taxi more or less at whim and it’s still cheaper. But we mostly use bus, bicycle and trains, and occasionally fly long distance. Or the boat. I often been asked how I could afford traveling so much through my life, and not owning a car is really the number one reason. Bonus of not having a car - I can have beers whenever it’s beer a clock.

I assume that you have another bonus: no kids...

Living without a car is quite difficult having a family (with different works and/or activities).

@QBit

Quote:

QBit wrote: A new Revolutionary Computer, is that Possible?

Quantum computers are possible and no doubt a different paridym for computing will be required to get the most out of the technology. I don't think we need Elon Musk to get there!

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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Here's what a catastrophic EV battery failure looks like...

https://youtu.be/5r-yN8SugWM

Fortunately nobody was harmed.

Last edited by Karlos on 25-May-2022 at 09:03 PM.

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@Karlos

Want a fire? I’ll show you a 5.8 million recall due to ICE car fires!

https://youtu.be/RFzJeoQ8nXw

https://youtu.be/gsNcpuBmTnI

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 25-May-2022 at 09:12 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

the guys a complete TOOL, who cheated with Amber Heard while she was still married and should be launched into space himself!

As long as we're off-topic anyway, what is the deal with Amber Heard? First it was Depp, and then Musk. It's not like she's especially good looking or talented. And she's probably a PITA to live with.

And Elon is all right. Some people resent him for being smart and successful, and envy him for being rich, but he's also eccentric and contrarian, which are points in my book.

Last edited by bison on 25-May-2022 at 09:48 PM.
Last edited by bison on 25-May-2022 at 09:47 PM.

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@DiscreetFX

I didn't claim cars full of combustible liquids don't burn. It was the Hindenburg reference towards hydrogen as a fuel while failing to acknowledge that EVs are just as flammable. And unlike petrol, spraying water on a lithium fire only makes it worse.

With fuel powered cars, fires tend to break out in the engine bay. It's very uncommon for the fire to start where the fuel is stored and this the rate at which the vehicle is engulfed is often slow enough to get out. Sensible car designs put the fuel tank as far as possible from likely sources or ignition for this reason.

By comparison, fires in EV are more likely to begin in the battery array. Once a cell fails catastrophically, unless the battery array is extremely well designed for containment, the cells around in are at risk of joining in and quickly.

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To be clear, I'm not opposed to EV. I just think they aren't the sole solution we need to tackle climate change. However they are being leapt on by governments because they are low hanging fruit and cynically promoted by manufacturers as being the answer to all ills while still being in a market where most people upgrade cars they never fully own every few years. Which is not long enough to even break even on the emissions produced in the manufacture or the cells alone. It's a massive crock.

If you want an EV and you want to feel like you've done your bit, buy a second hand one that's already done the miles to recoup the cell manufacturing at least.

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@bison

Quote:

And Elon is all right.

He's not alright please read the link; he called a genuine hero diver a pedophile because the guy didn't want to use his ridiculously over engineered and completely inappropriate for the rescue 'kid-sized submarine'. Maybe he watched too much Thunderbirds as a kid, but he's obviously a big ideas guy with more money that common sense and morals! He's not used to people standing up to him or saying no! He's another narcissistic Steve Jobs type! They do more damage than good in the long run, but pick up more than their fair share of cultish worshippers/hipster fans along the way!

We don't need heroes like him but we do need more Vernon Unsworth type heroes with actual bravery, skills and sacrificial attitude!

Last edited by BigD on 25-May-2022 at 10:46 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-May-2022 at 10:43 PM.

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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

So you think the jury was wrong?

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