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I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
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CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@kolla

I didn't add anything you didn't write. I quoted you directly. I'll do so again.

Quote:

The main reason why circumcising is a thing is of course “as a means of reducing sexual pleasure”, because sin and all that nonsense.

It's pretty difficult to interpret that in any other way than "people get circumcised to reduce sexual pleasure because (enjoyment of) sex is a sin."

Except there's no sin in enjoying sex with your spouse in Abrahamic traditions, with the possible exception of some Catholic groups. Which is ironic considering how pro procreation they are. Who knows, maybe the added sense guilt makes it more pleasurable for them.

Quote:

And I would not be surprised if my collection of hebrew and arabic music and literature is larger than yours :)

I'm sure you're right. It must be far more cost effective (those fuel prices!) and less labour intensive to burn it in bulk than an item at a time

Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 04:34 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 04:30 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 04:30 PM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@kolla

Quote:

I am not more islamophobe than I am christianityphobe,

Ah, right, so it's just that other group of ritual circumcisers you mean, then. Fair enough, vanilla antisemitism then.

Quote:

In a world full of round holes, do square pegs stand a chance

Hmm, that depends. Is the selection pressure on falling through the hole or not falling through it? As long as the diagonal distance of the square is greater than the diameter of the hole it won't pass through.

Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 05:27 PM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Welcome back!

Quote:

MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote: PADDING

Tasted good, did it? I assume this was in reference to what you just spent a couple of weeks chewing through in order to escape your safe confinement. Or did the section just expire early?

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

What if I tell you that there is no “law” in the Koran that dictates circumcision? It exists only in the Hadith, which unlike the Koran is man made. There are quite a few muslim groups who are against circumcision of babies, on the grounds that according to the Koran, god made the human body as perfect as possible already, and any alterations are an insult to the creation.

Similarly, there are quite a few jewish groups that also oppose this practice, pretty much on the same arguments. And there was times in history when circumcision wasn’t mandatory for neither jewish nor muslim groups before. But guess what, some clergic took offence and decided we can’t have it that god fearing people potentially would have too much pleasures when doing you know what, or god forbid - be tempted to have pleasures before getting married!! So, reintroduced it was, again and again.

So pardon my expression, but there isn’t any clear cut case here - societies are evolving.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Most of Islamic jurisprudence and practise is not in the Qur'an* and is in the practises and sayings of the prophet Muhammad that are recorded in the Hadith. These are collectively called the Sunnah. Even some of the most basic aspects, such as prayer fall into this category. Muslims aim to emulate the actions of the prophet to the best of their abilities. The prophet was circumcised and so where his sahaba (immediate followers). Consequently, the majority adopt this practise as part of the sunnah.

I'm less versed in the Judaic tradition, so I can't comment on that.

* Note only seasoned islamophobes use the spelling "Koran" these days and we've only just established you're only supposed to be a vanilla antisemite** a couple of posts ago

** Still running with the transgender advocate defame and slur playbook. Terms and conditions apply.

Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 08:53 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2022 at 08:51 PM.

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As much as I am a fan of the late Christopher Hitchens, I never agreed with his less than clinical summation of male circumcision as "mutilation". As a circumcised male, I'd say the level of "mutilation" is on par with piercings and tattoos. No reduction in feeling sexual pleasure, as compared to the colloquially shared experience of sex.

Female circumcision is more severe and does remove parts responsible for the experiencing of sexual pleasure, and is a practice intended to exert control over females. This level of mutilation is on par with castration, and the cutting out of tongues. It is inhumane and the act should be condemned globally.

On a side note:
For anyone who feels religion deserves respect or that it should get some sort of "free pass", I would suggest giving the movie
Agora (2009) a view. See if you can spot the similarities with the Repubicangenlicals subculture of today in the US.

Last edited by agami on 22-Jul-2022 at 04:51 AM.

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All the way, with 68k

@all

For god`s sake I must do the Laundry!!!!! Or I must go out naked!

I don`t want to end like the folks on chaturbate dot com!!!!!

Last edited by QBit on 22-Jul-2022 at 06:44 AM.
Last edited by QBit on 22-Jul-2022 at 06:34 AM.

@agami

Quote:

As a circumcised male, I'd say the level of "mutilation" is on par with piercings and tattoos. No reduction in feeling sexual pleasure, as compared to the colloquially shared experience of sex.

Nonsense! You don't know what you're missing, and nobody can tell you either, so you aren't qualified. Apparently.

Of course if you happened to be circumcised as an adult you could probably give an accurate before and after comparison.

Quote:

Female circumcision is more severe and does remove parts responsible for the experiencing of sexual pleasure, and is a practice intended to exert control over females. This level of mutilation is on par with castration, and the cutting out of tongues. It is inhumane and the act should be condemned globally.

I am in total agreement, except on the technical point that castration results in far more significant changes. Infertility being the obvious and, depending on when it was done, a failure to fully mature as a man due to the lack of testosterone.

Say what you like about male circumcision but there are good evidences that, for example, rates of cervical cancer are lower in populations where the practise is widespread. This is likely due to better hygiene arising from being able to keep your helmet clean.

Legitimate, medical reasons for female circumcision do exist, but they are rare and generally do not remove or alter the sensory areas. Beyond this, it's a barbaric harmful practise that has no tangible benefit to anyone.

Last edited by Karlos on 22-Jul-2022 at 09:44 AM.

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@QBit

Quote:

QBit wrote: @all For god`s sake I must do the Laundry!!!!! Or I must go out naked!

This is fine. You can simply identify as someone wearing clothes. Anyone attempting to make the claim you are in breach of any decency laws is a bigot guilty of the far greater crime of not respecting your identity / self perception.

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So, after all the teasing and banter, I do have a serious question.

For those that don't see what the fuss is around gender identity, how would you answer the question "What is a woman?". I'm sure most people will recognise the question from the recent Matt Walsh film of the same title, in which he tries to find some coherent answer from proponents of gender identity / fluidity.

To me, the answer is obvious. A woman is an adult female human, having two X chromosomes and all the biological / reproductive features they usually impart. This does not exclude anyone who, due to the result of surgery, disease, trauma or any other developmental issues may lack one or more of these features. This would seem to be congruent with the definition that has been understood by most, if not all cultures for the majority of recorded history.

A common answer to the question from proponents of gender identity is that either a "woman is anyone that identifies as a woman", which is frustratingly circular to say the least, or "only a woman knows what a woman is", which is much the same.

So. Is there an answer?

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@Karlos

Quote:

A common answer to the question from proponents of gender identity is that either a "woman is anyone that identifies as a woman", which is frustratingly circular to say the least...

1989 The Prudential I want to be a Tree

It's like the hippy not only wanting to be a tree but self identifying as one! Who cares why they think what they think? Leave that to the therapists! They are factually wrong and are denying their chromosomes and God given identity. While intersex individuals with elements of both sex organs have my sympathy (around 0.018% of the population) the trans agenda lobby definitely don't. Do what you want messing around in your mother's wardrobe but don't expect the world to change around your crazy dysphoria! Meant in love, but seriously I'm not a tree and neither are you!

Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 10:29 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Jul-2022 at 11:11 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

Who cares why they think that they think? Leave that to the therapists!

Sorry, but this is typical short sighted evangelical hubris. "My book says they're all wrong'uns, simplez! No need to think any further!"

The gender identity ideology began with higher educational institutions like universities, where the next generations of politicians, teachers and clinicians of every kind are being maturated. From the lecture theatres on to the student unions. These newly captured generation of policymakers and teachers to on to influence how the educational system the next layer down is brought into the fold. Now it's secondary education (highschool for those on the far-gone side of the Atlantic) and eventually primary school (elemental). It's a process that has taken decades but, much like climate change, we see the emergent effects seemingly all at once when we can no longer comprehend what the actual feck is happening to common sense and reason.

Last edited by Karlos on 23-Jul-2022 at 10:46 AM.

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@Karlos

The 66 books of the Bible inform and support common sense on this issue. They also give a world view framework as to why we are made the way we are and why body dysohoria can be a product of a fallen world. If we are on a secular journey with never ending progress without the checks of a 'instruction manual for life' then the ebb and flow of changeable morals and even genders is the inevitable outcome.

"This is my truth, show me yours!" really IS the slogan for the age! Howver, God is love and "the way, the TRUTH and the life." He demands our attention as society degrades and tetters on the brink!

There is no unchangeable moral standard without the Bible and humanity WILL devolve morally when refusing to pay it attention.

Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 12:20 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

You just don't get it. You can't use religious arguments with people that are not religious, which by and large most gender identity proponents aren't. They will instantly dismiss what you say because it's illogical old ideological clap trap to them. Which is ironic in this case, since their views are also ideological and illogical.

I'm not a Christian and I'm not a conservative. Matt Walsh is both Christian and conservative and based on many of his views on other subjects, I can tell that while we'd be able to talk civilly, we would have to agree to disagree on most things. However, on this issue I think he's on solid ground. He does not make the mistake of bringing his theological views into the discussion, much to the chagrin of people keen to dismiss him as a transphobic evangelical. Instead he just asks the question ans calmly applies basic common sense to each response and in doing so exposes the ideology for what it is.

In this very thread, it's been insinuated that I'm also conservative for taking a similar position on the matter to his, which anyone who knows me in person would probably laugh at until they stroked out from lack of oxygen.

You know that an idea is on weak ground when it's only defence against criticism is to try and silence it.

For the record, it's not just evangelical conservatives arguing against it. Bill Maher is an atheist and certainly not a conservative. His take is here: https://youtu.be/mMBzfUj5zsg

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In this day and age, what does "conservative" even mean? Conserving what exactly? A more fitting label on many so called "concervatives" is, in my view, reactionaries. They want to go back to a past reality (that of course never existed).

Bill Maher is a grumpy old man, and he’d be the first to acknowledge that :)

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Karlos

If anything liberals want to 'revert' to paganism and a time before the reformation. We resemble the 17th century more than ever. We like science as a culture but we don't want to talk about the details of chromosomes and gay genes. All we really want to boil everything down to is "I want my own way and who are you to tell me how to live my life!"

This is absurd and society has no reponsibility to condone sinful lifestyles. We should be helping those with body dysphoria, offering counselling rather than mutilating our children and teaching Biblical morality and promoting marriage rather than Stonewall propaganda in our schools.

The Bible SHOULD inform our world view if we are Christians and Christians hiding their faith should be ashamed like Peter denying Jesus three times. This whole agenda is an afront to the fact we are ALL made in God's image (a universal truth) and the teaching is that the church is meant to protect and love the vulnerable not sit back while society pumps the youth full of hormones and mutilated them before they are even fully developed!

If you take God and a universal Biblical morality out of the argument then you have to surmise that in a post-modern and post-truth age anyone could decide to self identify as giraffes or penguins or trees and that's all 'normal' in line with the secular values of the age! Even more they should campaign for legal recognition for 'their truth'!

Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 02:02 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 01:56 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 01:49 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 23-Jul-2022 at 01:48 PM.

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@kolla

Same question, but substitute liberal for conservative. Let's get real here, the "liberals" in the US are at least equally, maybe more authoritarian, than the "conservatives".

Conservatives in my country aren't about preservation or harkening back to past ideals, they are basically about greed and personal power and maintaining that. Sometimes that aligns with traditionally socially conservative views sometimes it doesn't. Our own chancellor was a massive tax dodger. While he was still chancellor. Now he's running to replace Boris for PM.

The traditional opposition party here has totally forgotten what it was about. It used to be about creating a fairer society and levelling the differences in terms of opportunity, making sure people had a safety net against falling into extreme poverty, and other traditionally well meaning leftist ideas. That all changed in recent years. First the party tore itself apart internally by having a massive smear campaign and witch-hunt. Jeremy Corbyn was suddenly branded a massive antisemite (hey, you should be able to identify with that). Once that was done, it began to focus on the most important issues dogging society under the Tories. Not poverty, the pandemic, the economic impacts of Brexit or any other trivialities of this nature, but on the real sine qua non of our time: Can a woman have a penis?

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@BigD

Quote:

The Bible SHOULD inform our world view if we are Christians and Christians hiding their faith should be ashamed like Peter denying Jesus three times

There you go again, barking up the wrong tree. How many gender ideologues are Christian? Church and state were separated long ago now. Your argument carries no weight at all with the people you need to persuade.

I think the honest truth is that most people, when asked to contemplate the core questions of gender identity will conclude it makes little sense. However they aren't likely to say anything because it doesn't directly impact them or even if they have concerns are afraid of the reprocussions of openly questioning it in an environment where they'll be quickly condemned as bigots.

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@Karlos

I don't need to persuade anyone. We just need to keep talking to keep 'free speech' channels open. It's a case of use it or lose it! They will call us bigots, they will attempt to change the law and they will allow biological males to assault females in prison, toilets and changing rooms. The argument is lost and only a spiritual revival starting in the hearts of an apathetic Church membership will make any difference in the long run. But I will protect my family because no one else in this culture will.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios