@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer But the SX-32 (Pro especially)DID provide an upgrade path for CD32 owners to get AB3D working smoother which was my point!

It wasn't baseline configuration and it was too late. Against Sony's PS1, it's the "What IF" early FPU-less AC68080 V2 or 68LC060 realm. My argument position includes attracting new customers to the Amiga platform.

The Amiga market wasn't able to mass-produce 68040 socket infrastructure for competitively priced offerings.

Commodore and Escom didn't mass produce Apple Quadra 605's 68040 socket-based single board-like solutions.

Mass-produced 68040 socket infrastructure is needed for 68060 / 68LC060 and 68040/68LC040/68040V.

"68030 Forever" is not good. SX-32 Pro and Escom Walker (1996) are part of the "68030 Forever" camp. A 32-bit bus-enabled 68020/68030 is competitive against 386DX, but 386DX-33 was EoL when SX32-Pro was released.

The 68040 / 68060 socket-based gateway adapter board is expensive for Phase 5.

It's about $270 for TF1260 in 2023 which is $130 in 1994. This is for hobbyist profit margins.

In 1991, Commodore was able to produce a limited production run for A3640 cards (with 68040 CPU @ 25Mhz + glue chips for A3000) for $400 USD retail i.e. the price difference between A3000T/030 and A3000T/040).

For 1992, $799 A1200 with 68LC040 @ 25 Mhz + 2 MB Fast RAM is like A500's $699 in 1987.
Mass production for the 68040 gateway adapter board will reduce the price.

Both Mehdi Ali's Commodore and Escom think the Amiga is just a next-gen C64... SNES has the "next-gen C64" price range and performance in 1992.

1995 was 486DX-66 last year to be relevant for the PC and it's the 3rd year for the Pentium. e.g. Pentium 120 /133 and Pentium Pro 150 / 180 / 200 models were released in 1995 which pushed the down earlier Pentium 60/66/75/90/100.

PS1's 33 MIPS CPU with 66 MIPS graphics co-processor remains relevant against Pentium 66/75-based gaming PCs.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Alien Breed 3D played far better if you upgraded your A1200 or CD32. I don't judge the game based on the fact it was targeted to run in some form on stock machines! It needs an 030 IMHO whether it competes with a 486 or Pentium PeeCee or not! Who cares, as a PC can't run Alien Breed 3D anyway?! Project Osiris however is indeed awesome in 2023 on x86-64 machines!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

I actually completed it on a stock machine. Well, it had a hard disk. The last levels were tough due to significant lag.

I replayed when i got my 1240 and it was a completely different experience. Insanely smooth and leaving you wishing ir had a high res mode. Some time later I played again on a machine with just fast ram and even that was massively more playable than stock.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer Alien Breed 3D played far better if you upgraded your A1200 or CD32. I don't judge the game based on the fact it was targeted to run in some form on stock machines! It needs an 030 IMHO whether it competes with a 486 or Pentium PeeCee or not! Who cares, as a PC can't run Alien Breed 3D anyway?! Project Osiris however is indeed awesome in 2023 on x86-64 machines!

Facts:
1. After Escom AG (Germany) went bankrupt in July 1996, Amiga with Motorola/Freescale 68030/68060 CPUs and Phase 5 (Germany)'s 1997 PowerPC accelerator cards didn't return the Amiga to mainstream stores.

I'm just repeating the complaint from Gloom3D/Skid Marks developer in major Amiga magazines against Escom's stock A1200 specs return in 1995. Hint: weak economies of scale with Amiga-related 3rd party addons.

TheA500 Mini (Retro Games Ltd, UK) with ARM Cortex A53-based All Winner H6 SoC (based on ARM Cortex/Mali IGP reference design) has returned the Amiga 68K to mainstream stores.

Phase 5's and DCE (Germany)'s 68030 accelerators are NOT Apple product premiums.

2. 1995 Alien Breed 3D's postage stamp to the C6 envelope-size render window was mocked.

Amiga has Breathless (1995) and Nemac IV (1996) and Alien Breed 3D II: The Killing Grounds (1996). For 1995, 1st gen and 2nd gen classic Pentium prices for 68030 @ 50 Mhz accelerators are LOL.

Gaming PC has more than just 1993 Doom and they scale to full screen with hardware performance. LOL

1995 Gaming PC has Rise of Triads (1994), DOOM II (1994), Star Wars: Dark Forces (1995), Heretic (1994), Duke Nukem 3D (1996), Terminator: Future Shock (1995), Alien Trilogy (1996), Quake (1996).

1995 Gaming PC has Wing Commander III (1994), Star Wars: TIE Fighter (1994), Descent (1994), Descent II (1996), Fury 3 (1995), Terminal Velocity (1995), Mech Warrior 2 (1995).

1995 Gaming PC has arcade-quality Mortal Kombat 2 (1993) and Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo (1994) ports.

The gaming PC platform has a creditable competitive fight against RISC-based game consoles.

1995 Mac has Marathon 2: Durandal.

1995-1996 era Gaming PC crushed Escom's Amiga gaming scene like a bug.


https://www.facebook.com/Team17/posts/throwbackthursday-alien-breed-3d-ii-the-killing-grounds-came-packaged-with-two-d/10156306431873064/
From Team 17's POV...
#ThrowbackThursday – Alien Breed 3D II: The Killing Grounds came packaged with two different versions. Think of the 4MB Amiga 1200 with an accelerator card as the Xbox One X of its day… Except nobody owned one!

Team 17 was one of the developers who complains about baseline A1200 specs in 1993 and they complained again, again, and again.

Team17's World Rally Fever 1996 release wasn't for the Amiga. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rally_Fever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLhsgooN21I


3. Raspberry Pi (UK, ARM-based Broadcom SoC) has about 45 million shipments from 2012 to 2022.

The Amiga failed for a reason and not by Microsoft or Intel.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: Back on topic, I've been reworking some of the sillier parts of level C. Fans of the original AB3D may find this place.... Familiar... https://youtu.be/S075EGOFc6o @Hammer You might not want to watch it as it may induce trauma memories of playing AB3D1 and getting bullied over blocky pixels :)

FYI, CaffeineOS 922 Storm has Alien Breed 3D II: The Killing Grounds and it has render glitches.

Blocky pixels were the norm in the 1990s for first-person shooters (FPS).

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

What a lot of info that doesn't change the fact that Alien Breed 3D DID provide a reason to upgrade! It's a great game! Worms was massive in 1995 and the Amiga had the best version! There was enough traction to keep sales going if only C= had listened to Bullfrog and Psynosis and released a better A1200 SKU in 1993/1994! They didn't and X-Wing and all the others didn't get ported.

However, the 030/50 upgrades WERE worth it and with the PiStorm we can now play C&C on the Amiga like we should have in 1995!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer What a lot of info that doesn't change the fact that Alien Breed 3D DID provide a reason to upgrade!

It doesn't change the fact uncompetitive performance vs cost ratio doomed products like Amiga's mainland European 3rd party CPU accelerators, Amiga's 3rd party PC SVGA based addon cards, 3DLabs Wildcat, and SGI's OpenGL accelerators.

Uncompetitive performance vs cost ratio doesn't attract new users for the platform. Learn from Raspberry Pi's 44 million unit shipment success from 2012 to 2022.
Raspberry Pi's hardware is not the best-performing solution, but it's low-cost.

Don't pretend the Amiga and Commodore brands rival premium brands like Apple's.

Quote:

It's a great game! Worms was massive in 1995 and the Amiga had the best version!

Not enough to be a system seller. I have purchased multiple Worms releases from GOG.

Quote:

There was enough traction to keep sales going if only C= had listened to Bullfrog and Psynosis and released a better A1200 SKU in 1993/1994! They didn't and X-Wing and all the others didn't get ported. !

With 1993 era Commodore International meeting, it's with Commodore-International CEO Mehdi Ali, Commodore UK MD's David Pleasance and developers representing Team 17, Bullfrog and Psygnosis. Mehdi Ali told the 3rd party developers to fu_koff in front of their faces.

3rd party developer relations are not a strong point with Mehdi Ali.

With Escom's 1995 return of baseline A1200 specs, Mark Sibly (Gloom/SkidMarks/Blitz Basic 2) complained about it in major Amiga magazines.

Team 17 repeatedly complain about it from 1993 to 2018.

Quote:

However, the 030/50 upgrades WERE worth it and with the PiStorm we can now play C&C on the Amiga like we should have in 1995 !

030/50 upgrade's uncompetitive performance vs cost ratio doesn't attract new users for the platform. Don't pretend the Amiga and Commodore brands rival premium brands like Apple's.

PiStorm with Raspberry Pi 3A+ (ARM Cortex A53 Quad-Core+ Broadcom VideoCore 4) or PiStorm32Lite with Raspberry Pi 4B (ARM Cortex A72 Quad-Core+ Broadcom VideoCore 6), it's a full-price AAA PS5 console game. PiStorm's Raspberry Pi leverages Sony UK's mass production and Broadcom's mass production contracts with TSMC's matured fabrication nodes.

PiStorm is a relatively recent event and BOM cost is very low cost. PiStorm with Raspberry Pi 3A+ combo was repeated by TheA500mini which used Allwinner H6 SoC's ARM Cortex A53 Quad-Core and Mali-T720 MP2 iGPU.

PiStorm32 Lite was usable in 2023 and it's for A1200. TF1200 is still work-in-progress to compete against PiStorm32 Lite with Raspberry Pi 4B's ARM Cortex A72.

PiStorm32 Lite for other 32-bit Amiga models is work-in-progress.

From Discord, TF1200 Buffee is progressing. The target is 1:1 between 68K and ARM instructions.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

From Discord, TF1200 Buffee is progressing. The target is 1:1 between 68K and ARM instructions.

How? Not even JIT does it on EMU68

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Hammer

We are talking about Alien Breed 3D which is an Amiga exclusive. The stock machines could be upgraded and if you want to play that game you need an Amiga NOT a PeeCee in 1995 and an accelerator would help a great deal. A relatively cheap PC was still more expensive than an Amiga accelerator upgrade so YES an 030 accelerator in 1995 made sense.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@pixie

How?

Buffe team count a jump to subroutine as one ARM instruction. Their PJIT puts one subroutine call for every m68k instruction, hence the 1:1.

@michalsc
I though it means it would translate into 1:1 arms 68k mips, like native

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Like this (look at M68k speed and ARM speed)?



https://www.patreon.com/posts/emu68-0-15-3-new-85948607

@michalsc

Damn! What kind of sorcery is this!

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@michalsc

Phwoar!

That is all.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@michalsc

Quote:

michalsc wrote: @pixie Like this (look at M68k speed and ARM speed)? https://www.patreon.com/posts/emu68-0-15-3-new-85948607

For Emu68-pistorm-20230711-9589dd.zip, it has regression bugs i.e. Shapeshifter MacOS 7.5.5 loses sound. Reverted back to Emu68-pistorm-20230510-bdffce build to compare.

Shapeshifter MacOS 7.5.5 setup is from CoffeineOS R922.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer We are talking about Alien Breed 3D which is an Amiga exclusive. The stock machines could be upgraded and if you want to play that game you need an Amiga NOT a PeeCee in 1995 and an accelerator would help a great deal. A relatively cheap PC was still more expensive than an Amiga accelerator upgrade so YES an 030 accelerator in 1995 made sense.

So, you want to start 1995-1996 CPU accelerated Amigas vs 1995-1996 clone PC price debate?

Remember, 68030 @ 50 Mhz A1200 AGA is similar to 386DX-40 with ET4000 when playing Doom.

In USD, from https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1995-04
Amiga World Magazine (April 1995), last issue.
Page 36 of 69.
For A1200
DKB Cobra 40, 68030 @ 40 Mhz $340.
DKB Mongoose, 68030 @ 50 Mhz $349.

Page 42 of 69.
SX-1 for CD32, $239
SX1 with 1 MB Fast RAM add $49.95
Bundle CD32 deal with SX-1 = 449.95

1x8 SIMM Module = $44.00
1x32 SIMM Module = $165.00

Page 50 of 69
MBX 68030 1230 XA, 68030 @ 50Mhz = $279.

Page 56 of 69 (Used Amiga hardware)
A1200 = $500
A1200 motherboard = $295

A1200 supplies are dried up for Amiga World Magazine's April 1995.


https://archive.org/details/amiga-world-1994-05/page/n63/mode/2up
Amiga World Magazine (May 1995, last issue)
Page 64 of 100
Amiga 1200 = $399.99 (need AGA chipset)

Staggered 1994-1995 build total: $792.99 USD with DKB Mongoose and 1x8 SIMM Module.
This is targeting 386DX-40 with ET4000 AX like PC clone performance.


VS

https://vintageapple.org/pcworld/pdf/PC_World_9507_July_1995.pdf
PC World, July 1995
Page 335
Pentium 75 = $359
SIS chipset-based P54 PCI motherboard = $169 (includes 4 PCI, 4 ISA slots, 256KB L2 Cache)
One 72 pin SIMM 70ns 4MB = $149
Four 30-pin SIMM 70ns 4MB = $130

Upgrade build: $677 (this is targeting FPU-heavy 1996 Quake).


-----
For 486 (GA = Gigabyte brand) and P24T (Pentium OverDrive targeting Quake)
GA-486VF/VS (SIS chipset) = $125.
GA-486AM PCI (UMC chipset) = $178.

Pentium Overdrive P24T 63 Mhz = $389.
Intel 486DX2-66 = $155.
AMD DX4-100 = $195

GA-486VF/VS Bare Bone bundle deal
Mini Tower Case, Trident VLB SVGA 1 MB, with 486DX2-66 CPU = $399 or with 486DX4-100 CPU = $499

Super P54CI Bare Bone bundle deal
Mini Tower Case, Trident VLB SVGA 1 MB, Pentium 90 = $929 or Pentium 100 = $1057


-----
For LOL...
GA·S861D PCl/EISA with dual Pentium CPU sockets motherboard = $650. This is for Windows NT with SMP support.

Gigabyte (GA) motherboards wreaking the Amiga since 1995. Taiwanese companies such as ASUS/ASRock/Pegatron, MSI, Gigabyte, and Elitegroup CS are the wrecking ball against old schools.

-----------------------------

From https://medium.com/discourse/tsmc-the-taiwanese-titan-be0774531bb
In the 1970s and 1980s, the Taiwanese government gave the semiconductor industry strategic priority for development.

The West tolerated the Taiwanese government-funded tech industry.

Somewhere in the 2010s, the UK government is partly aiding Raspberry Pi Foundation. LOL

WTO rules have been thrown out since China joined WTO.

I don't think the classic small government libertarian funding models can beat government intervention when the computer tech industry has national security issues.

---------------------------------

Alien Breed 3D's C6 Envelope size display is mocked.

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Yeah, the SX-1 bundle deal looks competitive with option to upgrade to a SX32 Pro later on! It doesn't matter if the Alien Breed 3D screen is mocked if youvenjoy the game. The Amiga was still the more rounded home computer in 1995/96. Most PCs came with Microsoft Works! Compare that to PageStream AND TurboPrint!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @BigD Quote: BigD wrote: @Hammer We are talking about Alien Breed 3D which is an Amiga exclusive. The stock machines could be upgraded and if you want to play that game you need an Amiga NOT a PeeCee in 1995 and an accelerator would help a great deal. A relatively cheap PC was still more expensive than an Amiga accelerator upgrade so YES an 030 accelerator in 1995 made sense. So, you want to start 1995-1996 CPU accelerated Amigas vs 1995-1996 clone PC price debate? ...

No, you misunderstood @BigD

For someone who already had an Amiga 1200, it was cheaper to buy an 030/50 accelerator in 95/96 than it was to buy a completely new IBM-compatible Win 95 PC.

I did exactly that, but also just before Xmas 1995, I got my first beige box Pentium 90 PC running Win 95 + Encarta 96 with CD-ROM, 15" monitor, 1.44 Floppy, some cheap SoundBlaster sound card, S3 2MB video card, can't exactly remember the HDD size (500MB?), I think it was 4MB RAM, an IO card, some trashy speakers, cheap keyboard and mouse, and the whole system set me back just under $2,500 AUD. A lot more than just buying an accelerator for the A1200.

In raw speed, the system outperformed my expanded A1200, but it couldn't hold a candle to the levels of creative work I was able to accomplish with my existing library of software and native multimedia capabilities. At the time, even "surfing the internet" was not much better on Windows 95.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

I think it was 1996, I was all poised to get a 1230-IV, but seemingly out of nowhere, the Apollo1240 appeared, at nor much difference in price. I was all over it.

It was a bumpy start, missing 68040 library, problems with leaving execbase+VBR in chip ram and not remapping the kickstart either. MCP soon fixed those and the difference was amazing.


And, just in time for Alien Breed 3D 2!

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Jul-2023 at 01:14 PM.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

My first upgrade was a 040, then exchanged it for a 060 and afterwards to a 060/PPC + Bvision. Amazing setup

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga