@pixie

I "sidegraded" from the 25MHz apollo to thr same 25MHz BlizzzPPC with the 240MHz 603e. So the basic system performance upgrade wasn't much aside from ppc datatypes snd applications. However from AGA to BVision wss basically mindblowing.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

Back on topic, I'm fixing some of the issues with the RTG version (specifically the border HUD is nonfunctional).

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer Yeah, the SX-1 bundle deal looks competitive with option to upgrade to a SX32 Pro later on! It doesn't matter if the Alien Breed 3D screen is mocked if youvenjoy the game. The Amiga was still the more rounded home computer in 1995/96. Most PCs came with Microsoft Works! Compare that to PageStream AND TurboPrint!

Both PC and Amiga magazines have older full application cover disks.

SX-1 is only Fast RAM and A1200's backport replicators.

It's about attracting new users to the platform instead of losing them to other platforms.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@agami

Quote:

No, you misunderstood @BigD For someone who already had an Amiga 1200, it was cheaper to buy an 030/50 accelerator in 95/96 than it was to buy a completely new IBM-compatible Win 95 PC.

030 @ 50 Mhz accelerator is about 386DX-40 class CPU i.e. both machines will be stumped by 1996-era Quake and similar games for the Pentium class CPUs.

My 1992 era 386DX-33 with ET4000AX clone PC survived until 1996 Quake and the August 1995 release of Windows 95 pushed the upgrade trigger.

Quote:

I did exactly that, but also just before Xmas 1995, I got my first beige box Pentium 90 PC running Win 95 + Encarta 96 with CD-ROM, 15" monitor, 1.44 Floppy, some cheap SoundBlaster sound card, S3 2MB video card, can't exactly remember the HDD size (500MB?), I think it was 4MB RAM, an IO card, some trashy speakers, cheap keyboard and mouse, and the whole system set me back just under $2,500 AUD. A lot more than just buying an accelerator for the A1200. In raw speed, the system outperformed my expanded A1200, but it couldn't hold a candle to the levels of creative work I was able to accomplish with my existing library of software and native multimedia capabilities. At the time, even "surfing the internet" was not much better on Windows 95.

You're comparing apples to pears.

1. PC components can be purchased across multiple financial years i.e. Y1995 for a base system and Y1996 for CD-ROM and extra RAM.

2. Pentium 90 can run Doom at high details with ease and Quake at Hollywood standard's 24 fps.

You have effectively purchased a PC with specs that rivals A1200 with an extremely overclocked 68060 rev6 @ 110 Mhz or V1200 V2 level specs. Lower-cost PCs are available.

https://thandor.net/benchmark/32
Pentium 90's Doom at high details has 63.35 fps.

A1200 with 030 @ 50 Mhz can run Doom at low details @ full screen like 386DX-33 PC with ET4000AX.

From https://archive.org/details/EA1995/EA%201995-11%20November/page/n69/mode/2up
Page 70 of 148
Ritron Computers System in the Australian state of Victoria
Pentium 90-based PC has $1945 including tax or $1595 without tax.
Includes: 1.44FDD, 8MB RAM, 540MB HDD, 256KB L2 cache, PCI SVGA video card, keyboard, 14-inch SVGA (0.28 dotp)monitor.

Since I have a 386DX-33 PC clone from 1992 in place of an A1200, I only need to purchase a new motherboard, CPU, and RAM. Buying S3 Trio 64UV PCI is optional. My cheap Yamaha 16-bit OPL3 ISA sound card, PC case, PSU, keyboard, monitor, speakers, and mouse are recycled. In the end, I went for a full Pentium 150 / S3 Trio 64UV / 8 MB RAM MPC build after I sold my A3000 to a small Australian TV studio since my Dad still has business contacts.

For November 1995, Pentium 90 with PCI motherboard combo has a $799 asking price with tax.

https://archive.org/details/EA1995/EA%201995-12%20December/page/n67/mode/2up
December 1995 Xmas month. Page 88 of 68.
Ritron Computers System in the Australian state of Victoria
Pentium 90-based PC has $1872 including tax or $1535 without tax.
Includes: 1.44FDD, 8MB RAM, 540MB HDD, 256KB L2 cache, PCI video card, keyboard, 14-inch SVGA monitor.

Multimedia upgrade kit with CD-ROM 16-bit sound card, speakers, MS Encarta/Works/Money/Golf/Dangerous Creatures
CD-ROM 2X = $329
CD-ROM 4X = $399
CD-ROM 6X = $649

You didn't buy a big box Amiga, but instead, you purchased Pentium 90 MPC. LOL

My A3000/030 @ 25Mhz 4MB Fast RAM + 2MB Chip RAM with SCSI CD-ROM 2X speed (from Apple's targeted audience, Apple PowerMac purchase was a close call). My A3000/030 usually runs MacOS 68K. PC games trumped Apple Macs, hence its Pentium PC purchase in 1996.

Both my Amiga and PC have the full Imagine 3D from PC and Amiga magazine cover disks.
My Dad has Ami Pro/Lotus 123 for Windows from work. Around 1996, I took over my own PC purchases.

My PC has the full version Claris Works 1.0 from PC magazines' cover disc/disk e.g. PC Review March 1996.

https://archive.org/details/Australian_Commodore_and_Amiga_Review_The_Volume_12_Issue_11_1995-11_Storm_Front_Studios_AU
The Amiga returns in the Australian 1995 market
From Australian Amiga Review, Nov 1995
Page 2, Cybervision 64 (S3 trio 64U), $1099

Page 8,
DKB Mongoose 030 @ 50Mhz, 882 @ 50Mhz, 4MB RAM = $869
GVP 40Mhz 68040, 4MB RAM = $1399

Page 34
Amiga 1200, please call. Hint: final price and stock issues.
DKB Mongoose 030 @ 50Mhz, 882 @ 50Mhz = $599 (needs Fast RAM)

Page 82
Warp Engine 040 40Mhz = $2299
A1200HD = $1245
A4000T/040 = $4945
A4000T/060 @ 50 Mhz = $5445

A1200HD's $1245 + DKB Mongoose 030/882 @ 50Mhz with 4MB RAM's $869 = $2,114

For the 1995 Australian market, 486DX and Pentium-based PCs killed the Amiga AGA in performance vs price ratio.

A1200's worldwide sales didn't reach 1 million units install base and it would limit 3rd party Amiga CPU accelerators vendors' potential market size.

The Amiga platform failed for a few reasons.

Apples to apples comparison
1. PC component staggered purchases vs accelerated Amiga staggered purchases
2. New PC build vs new Amiga + accelerator build

Apples to pears comparison (your argument)
1. Amiga staggered purchase vs New multimedia-PC build
There's only a tiny A1200 install base in Australia. Your argument position is a tiny minority.

My PiStorm'ed A1200 is currently being used as MP3 daily driver i.e. 64 GB micro-sd card loaded with songs (internal IDE) + 32 GB CoffeineOS micro-sd card. 14-bit @56khz "vinyl" Paula A1200 music box

During the COVID-19 lockdown, my A1200 was purchased from the UK that was found in the roof attic and the new house owner sold A1200 on eBay as "broken for parts" i.e. below market cost. A1200 is fully working.

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_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @pixie I "sidegraded" from the 25MHz apollo to thr same 25MHz BlizzzPPC with the 240MHz 603e. So the basic system performance upgrade wasn't much aside from ppc datatypes snd applications. However from AGA to BVision wss basically mindblowing.

240 Mhz PowerPC 603e wasn't used for PiStorm-Emu68 style solution.

Recent Emu68's JIT efficiency emulated 68040 (~120Mhz to 240 Mhz 68040 equivalent?) on 240 Mhz PowerPC 603e would be nicer i.e. it would accelerate any 68K CPU extensive workloads while keeping legacy Amiga chipset support.

Michal Schulz did a good job with the soft 68040 Emu68 translator.

Without RunInUAE, the classic AmigaOS 4.1 FE PPC's userland 68K emulator doesn't play nice with 68k WHDLoad.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jul-2023 at 02:57 PM.
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_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

Again, the reality is that you're changing platform when forking out for an expensive PC and hence losing all productivity software to be replaced with Microsoft Works in most cases! Shocking! While I'd have liked C&C in 1995 it wasn't worth the jump and an 030/50 WAS a good solution for the Amiga considering what you can actually do! I don't think the PC was a 'bang for your buck' equivalent until Windows XP came out whatever your calculations! Windows was shocking quite frankly up until that point and productivity was poor for home users IMHO! Doom was a killer app but it got old fast past Doom 2. We got ADoom in 1998 and I hated using Windows 98 on dial up in the 2000s! C&C Red Alert 2 helped the transition though!

Last edited by BigD on 21-Jul-2023 at 03:34 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Hammer

Say what you like about it, but the fact is, doom attack 020 running on petunia on that exact same system was playable at 640*400, 4x the pixel count I was using on the 040. The frame rate was a bit better too.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer Say what you like about it, but the fact is, doom attack 020 running on petunia on that exact same system was playable at 640*400, 4x the pixel count I was using on the 040. The frame rate was a bit better too.

I never got to use OS4 on it, by that time I had already had a PC

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Well, I had one too, but where's the fun in that?

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Hammer

RunInUAE is not 68k userland for AmigaOS4.x, its 3rd party addon.
for the not so system frendly games and demos.
(Hint! During installation you choose to install it or not.)

Putinia JIT is the native userland.
so 68k programs are run on AmigaOS4.1 not AmigaOS3.x.

(you need make sure you have NOT started RunInUAE as
it patches the hunk loader, and takes over!!!)

Download this package if you want forward whload 68k to EUAE.
http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=emulation/utility/whdload-to-uae.lha

it's pretty simple, at least from WHDLoad to E-UAE version 3.1, I gotten no complaints, so it must be working

Its almost too complicated to explain this stuff to someone who has not used AmigaOS4.1/AmigaONE, because I don’t think people actually understand that there are different ways run 68k programs and games.

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@Karlos

Doom attack works on Petunia JIT as well, I believe without sound, as no AHI support.
and as all AmigaOS4.1 emulated planar modes are 640x480 instead of
640x400 and 640x256 and so on things do not look so good.
(But who care when we have a native PPC version without problems.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jul-2023 at 09:11 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Maybe you missed it, but I'm talking about running on petunia, specifically on the blizzppc.

I ran it just fine because (1) it was running on RTG with a fast enough bus and (2) with full access to Paula and everything else that Doom Attack expects. The only thing that was slow is the screen wipe effect since reading the VRAM is slow.

https://youtu.be/AQ1t5q3xmYk

Last edited by Karlos on 22-Jul-2023 at 10:35 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 21-Jul-2023 at 09:33 PM.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: Back on topic, I'm fixing some of the issues with the RTG version (specifically the border HUD is nonfunctional).

Great! Any chance we'll have a working HUD in August? Need to have some BBQ gaming fun in a more managed ammo conserving, health counter watching way!

Last edited by BigD on 22-Jul-2023 at 11:59 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Yeah, shouldn't be long now. I got the ammo and health counters working, just the weapon list and gun selection to go.

There's an annoying foible of the RTG version. The border area is outside the area that is normally updated by either the c2p step in the AGA version (where it's all drawn planar directly to the screen) or the RTG version (where the buffer is copied). In order to be efficient and not have to lock the bitmap whenever the border is updated, I do it during the same lock when the frame is updated.

This works fine but when you get killed, you often have a nonzero health left because the death behaviour happens and the last update to the counter never makes it to the screen.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Nice! You seem on it! A non-zero counter on death is not the worst thing in the world. You just need to know you're close to death BEFORE you die!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer Say what you like about it, but the fact is, doom attack 020 running on petunia on that exact same system was playable at 640*400, 4x the pixel count I was using on the 040. The frame rate was a bit better too.

Facts? Blizzard PPC / 603e was a 1998 release, not a 1995 release i.e. showing off superior Doom in 1998 is too late.

My 1998 gaming PC was the infamous Celeron 300A (450 Mhz overclock king with 100 Mhz FSB) and 1993 Doom/1994 Doom II was replaced by 1996 Quake I, 1997 GLQuake, and 1997 Quake II. My 1998-era OpenGL video card was NVIDIA Riva TNT obliterated 3D Labs Premedia 2.

Like many others, the mainstream has moved away from "Doom95" when Quake/WinQuake was in vogue. Doom95 supported 640x480 resolution. In modern times, Doom is for the retro scene e.g. SBemu was designed to run DOS Doom on DOS-booted modern PCs with emulated Sound Blaster sound on Intel HDA.

Epic's Unreal game was released in 1998 and supports Intel's MMX, OpenGL, and 3DFX Glide.

GLQuake and Quake II-related benchmark marketing PR wreaked several OpenGL vendors from the market.

IDsoftware (John Carmack) is the wreaking the ball on FPU weak 586/686 clones and weak OpenGL implementations that made Intel and NVIDIA the king.

IDsoftware's mixing of GPR and FPR data exposed a design weakness with PowerPC CPUs.

Microsoft made sure IDsoftware remained with the gaming PC platform by purchasing ZeniMax Media, hence blocking Google's Stadia.

The Amiga running retro Doom is to avoid ugly MS-DOS and run the retro Amiga WHDLoad games.

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_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Hammer RunInUAE is not 68k userland for AmigaOS4.x, its 3rd party addon. for the not so system frendly games and demos. (Hint! During installation you choose to install it or not.)

Hint: It was officially bundled with AmigaOS 4.1 FE i.e. I have it on my WinUAE's A4000/Phase 5 Cyberstorm PPC/ Voodoo 3000/GREX PCI's AmigaOS 4.1 FE Update 2 setup.

I purchased AmigaForever 2016 Plus Edition with AmigaOS 4.1 FE bundle.

Quote:

Putinia JIT is the native userland. so 68k programs are run on AmigaOS4.1 not AmigaOS3.x.

Without UAE, my licensed non-game EA's Deluxe Music 2 doesn't work on classic AmigaOS 4.1 FE.

1. Deluxe Music 2's installer doesn't work on AmigaOS 4.1 FE.
2. I manually copied the Deluxe Music 2 app on Amiga's mass storage and copied fonts to AmigaOS 4.1's font folder.
3. Deluxe Music 2 will launch.
4. Deluxe Music 2 will freeze when the play button is clicked.

My Deluxe Music 2 was used in the 1990s for a non-profit organization use case.

I use MuseScore 4.x and Cakewalk 2022 on the PC. Cakewalk Sonar LE / Ableton Live was bundled with the ASUS D2X soundcard.

I looked at open source MusE sequencer on Linux.

Quote:

Download this package if you want forward whload 68k to EUAE. http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=emulation/utility/whdload-to-uae.lha it's pretty simple, at least from WHDLoad to E-UAE version 3.1, I gotten no complaints, so it must be working Its almost too complicated to explain this stuff to someone who has not used AmigaOS4.1/AmigaONE, because I don’t think people actually understand that there are different ways run 68k programs and games.

I just give up, shut down AmigaOS 4.1 FE, and reverted back to 68K AmigaOS 3.x based CoffeineOS 922.

I get around to using the CoffeineOS Butcher installer to reuse my licensed AmigaOS 3.2.

I tried QEmu's AmigaOS 4.1 FE SAM460 and feels like Draco with better looking UI.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jul-2023 at 08:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Jul-2023 at 07:59 AM.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

I know it's challenging for you, but do try and present a consistent argument and/or remember what is being discussed. You criticised the 603 for not being used Emu68 style. I responded with the fact that the 603 was nevertheless able to run 68K software under its JIT on OS4 much faster than than real 68K at the time, which is all anybody could ask of it.

How much faster would it have been if the 603 ran 3.x under a JIT emulation (i.e. closer to Emu68)? Well, take a look at early powerup versions of MorphOS. Back then significant amounts of the system were still 68K. Comparable versions of OS4 were running a lot of the same 68K components interpretively. Given the performance of available hardware at the time going native rather than improving emulation performance was an obvious choice.

Today the situation is different. We have very mature 68K JIT implementation on x86/64, PPC and Arm. Staying on 68K makes more sense than when it was still available silicon.

Last edited by Karlos on 24-Jul-2023 at 09:03 AM.

_________________
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@Hammer

I not sure why Deluxe Music 2 is not working, as you’re saying it’s old program, if your emulating classic machine it should have the chipset. Perhaps their other incompatibility between AGA or OCS, does it work with 2MB chip ram? Or maybe the program does support fast ram. There was a utility/tool on AmigaOS1.3 called “no fast mem”, some programs only work on AmigaOS 1.3 or 2.0, might work 3.x and I guess that’s also true for 3.x programs running on 4.x.

Some other things came to mind, decompression and encrypted code, I know some case this can cause problems, for instruction cache, perhaps decompile with IRA and see what it does. Perhaps is possible to fix it, but interest be low, because need chipset, most AmigaOS4.x users do not have that. unless complete player routine can be replaced.

I suggest other music programs:
DigiBooter, OctaMed, Bars and Pipes.

QEMU is apparently better then VirtualBox and many other Virtual machines and emulators
when it comes to speed, because it supports proper virtualization. Perhaps QEMU can generate simple code, when emulating PPC, if does need to software virtualize memory as well.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Without UAE, my licensed non-game EA's Deluxe Music 2 doesn't work on classic AmigaOS 4.1 FE.

Maybe the code isn't friendly with Petunia JIT. Did you try black listing it?