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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 22:09:48
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@cdimauro

You are a provoker, I'm not seeing what youíre saying on country this summer has pretty active on OS4Dpoet.net.

Lots good software is being produced, and lot issues being worked on.

More people are experiencing HD 1080p/4K/8K videos on AmigaOS, and 3D support is going forward.

People are organizing monthly gaming completions using on AmigaOS4 on games.
and there is monthly summary that interesting to read at end of etch month.

thatís on the bright side.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Aug-2022 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Aug-2022 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Aug-2022 at 10:11 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 0:39:11
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

More people are experiencing...


How many more people do you think are using AmigaOS4 than the year before? How many units of PPC hardware do you think were sold with AmigaOS4 in the last year? Do you really believe AmigaOS4 PPC hardware sales are healthy? Even if Tabor came out, do you really think a few hundred more PPC boards would make a difference? Is this the PPC AmigaOS4 end game while the retro 68k Amiga market is exploding and the 68k AmigaOS is keeping Hyperion alive?

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kolla 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 3:50:03
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2315
From: Trondheim, Norway

The Apollo Core discord has 6110 members.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 4:31:02
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

You are a provoker,

I'm a reality checker. You, on the other hand, are a blind OS4 fanatic which isn't able to accept the reality.
Quote:
I'm not seeing what youíre saying on country this summer has pretty active on OS4Dpoet.net.

Lots good software is being produced, and lot issues being worked on.

More people are experiencing HD 1080p/4K/8K videos on AmigaOS, and 3D support is going forward.

People are organizing monthly gaming completions using on AmigaOS4 on games.
and there is monthly summary that interesting to read at end of etch month.

thatís on the bright side.

Matt already replied, but I've to add: any news on OS4 development? This to be on the bright side.

On the opposite site, any news about OS 4.2 with SMP (NOT generic multi-thread), Gallium (not Nova), and 64-bit (not C64-like bank switching)?


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
The Apollo Core discord has 6110 members.

Which means?

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Kronos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 4:42:44
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2284
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

Last news on the topic directly from Gunnar this time:
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4¨e=38817&x=1&z=_Oiy70
There are about 10.000 Vampire/Apollo systems in the field.

Satisfied now, or do you need a copy of the 10k invoices?


From a guy with such a long history of making up numbers?

I'll pass.

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Kronos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 4:46:40
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2284
From: Unknown

@matthey


Thank you for making my point.

You take one assumed number (Vampire 600 sales), extrapolate over different products and that somehow proves what you want to be true.

Next step is mixing up real retro and (Win)UAE users with Alt-retro to boost up the numbers some more.

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amigang 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 5:13:39
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1907
From: Cheshire, England

I started thinking cpu doesnít matter anymore and improving emulation / virtual cpu Amiga might be better way to go.

Like Pistorm shows us how cheap arm hardware can now turn classic Amiga into the top end system. I think a Ppc version of this would be pretty popular.
interesting thread on PowerPC emulation being better on Arm chips
https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10702
Pi4 can emulate a g3 at roughly 300mhz speed, so pistorm ppc may be possible.

Plus it be great if Vampire / Apollo boards and system got emulated, either on pistorm or in uae. I know winuae guys not interested, which is a shame as I feel it would help grow that market slightly with 68080 & Ammx supported.

Lastly I think it would be cool if PowerPC emulation of say a full Os4 system, like qemu does feature Sam440 system
https://youtu.be/ilc88nJQ3OM
But a much easier emulator, maybe developed from this thatís designed just for os4 would be nice.

Last edited by amigang on 21-Aug-2022 at 05:16 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 5:21:17
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
I started thinking cpu doesnít matter anymore and improving emulation / virtual cpu Amiga might be better way to go.

This is my preferred way, since it's a retro-platform.
Quote:
Like Pistorm shows us how cheap arm hardware can now turn classic Amiga into the top end system. I think a Ppc version of this would be pretty popular.
interesting thread on PowerPC emulation being better on Arm chips
https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10702
Pi4 can emulate a g3 at roughly 300mhz speed, so pistorm ppc may be possible.

Absolutely. IF it has enough market / audience to make it desirable / needed for customers. Which I don't think (see at the bottom).
Quote:
Plus it be great if Vampire / Apollo boards and system got emulated, either on pistorm or in uae. I know winuae guys not interested, which is a shame as I feel it would help grow that market slightly with 68080 & Ammx supported.

Toni already said that it's not possible because that platform is a moving target. So, it needs to be stabilized first.
Quote:
Lastly I think it would be cool if PowerPC emulation of say a full Os4 system, like qemu does feature Sam440 system
https://youtu.be/ilc88nJQ3OM
But a much easier emulator, maybe developed from this thatís designed just for os4 would be nice.

OS4 needs something better than QEMU, which is carrying too much stuff AKA too much overhead. An ad-hoc emulator would squeeze more and better from the host hardware.

But it's not worth the effort, since the platform has a reduced audience and not killer apps which justify it.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 9:57:59
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@matthey

Quote:
How many more people do you think are using AmigaOS4 than the year before?


about the same as 10 years before, I dont have stats, but download does not same to change mutch.

Quote:
How many units of PPC hardware do you think were sold with AmigaOS4 in the last year?


ACube-Systems small Sam460 batches are quickly sold out, there is demand for low-cost systems.
Some AmigaONE-X5040 being sold, not sure if they are old users or new users, maybe a mix.

The hardware market can be misleading also, MorphOS user also buy the systems X50x0 systems. This sale does not necessary translate into new AmigaOS users. There are some who dual boot.

Quote:
Even if Tabor came out, do you really think a few hundred more PPC boards would make a difference?


Donít know what to expect from Tabor, I wonít wait for it, I get a Sam460, if I did not own a AmigaONE or two, from before.
Quote:
Is this the PPC AmigaOS4 end game while the retro 68k Amiga market is exploding and the 68k AmigaOS is keeping Hyperion alive?


Well AmigaKIT is investing heavily in Enhancer2.2 and other dives updates, just because Hyperion has issues, things will not stop. I donít know if the 680x0 market who founds it, or if AmigaOS4.x is self-founding.

As a software developer you most likely want to target two or three operating systems. To expand your market. Then you might make some money given you make something thatís mandatory.

I was pretty shocked to see 22 downloads of ďamosextension.library.lhaĒ, its for nitche with in a nitche with in a nitche. 22 people want convert there old AMOS code into ASCII really?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2022 at 12:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2022 at 10:00 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 10:18:56
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12344
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Quote:
are a blind OS4 fanatic which isn't able to accept the reality.


Well fanatics are faithful, and you disregard that. when you come up with your nonsense.

You find many people, own one/two or three different systems, they donít belong in one group or the other. You think that, if I did buy Vampire 4, I stop using a AmigaONE? You be crazy, I be using Vampire 4 as system to run old demos, and run old programs, now if canít do that I pretty pissed.

Quote:
On the opposite site, any news about OS 4.2 with SMP (NOT generic multi-thread), Gallium (not Nova), and 64-bit (not C64-like bank switching)?


Yes, will be demo'ed in October / AmiWest, we not promised a working ready to use SMP, but we will see something. This Treves ExecSG team who has worked on this.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2022 at 10:38 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2022 at 12:56 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2022 at 10:20 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 16:45:16
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
are a blind OS4 fanatic which isn't able to accept the reality.


Well fanatics are faithful,

That's the problem: religion (not restricted to pink flying unicorns or something like that).

It's the worst thing that could happen to human beings and the primary source of issues.

Your faith will likely make you mistakes only for that and this leads to critics and attacks from other people.

There's a reason why I'm atheist (and anarchist): I can coldly evaluate things/facts/arguments and avoid mistakes (coming from any kind of faith) because I'm not bounded to anything which makes me "sensible" about.
Quote:
and you disregard that.

That's plainly false. Care to prove it?
Quote:
when you come up with your nonsense.

Same as above: quote me and PROVE the presumed non-sense.

As you can see, being faithful directly brings you to make mistakes. And you know what happens then? I'm here already with 10" nails ready to crucify you in the public square for them. Because you cannot escape from your mistakes: there's always someone which will catch them and put them in front of your face.

So, the best way is to do NOT involve your faith on discussions: be detached from it and with cold blood.
Quote:
You find many people, own one/two or three different systems, they donít belong in one group or the other. You think that, I did buy Vampire 4, I stop using a AmigaONE? You be crazy, I use Vampire 4 as system to run old demos, and run old programs, now if canít do that I pretty pissed.

I never stated this. You don't correctly read what people write and then, again, you make mistakes because of your faith which distorted my writings on your mind.

This:

"many people are also abandoning the died PowerPC platforms and reverted back to the 68K"

that I've written has a different meaning, in fact.

Now sit down, remove your pink glasses of OS4 fanatic, read it carefully and acquire its CORRECT meaning. Then, and only then, you can write me IF (and only if) you really have something to say about it (spoiler: I expect no replies).
Quote:
Quote:
On the opposite site, any news about OS 4.2 with SMP (NOT generic multi-thread), Gallium (not Nova), and 64-bit (not C64-like bank switching)?


Yes, will be demo'ed in October / AmiWest, we not promised a working ready to use SMP, but we will see something.

As I've already said, it'll be some multi-threading stuff. Which is FAR AWAY from the promised (not from you, but from Mr. Solie) SMP...
Quote:
This Treves ExecSG team who has worked on this.

He's Trevor: NOT Treves.

Anyway, let me know when OS4.2 will be published with ALL promises made by Hyperion (and which I've already reported)...

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matthey 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 17:37:38
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1684
From: Kansas

Kronos Quote:

Thank you for making my point.

You take one assumed number (Vampire 600 sales), extrapolate over different products and that somehow proves what you want to be true.

Next step is mixing up real retro and (Win)UAE users with Alt-retro to boost up the numbers some more.


Your unbiased observation of how quiet Vampire users are is of course more accurate than evidence of demand.

Kronos Quote:

Cos one thing is for sure, for such numbers it is awfully quite regarding actual users of the HW.


The retro 68k Amiga is difficult to break out from retro in general. Trevor has likely played C64 games on his MiSTer he bought primarily as a 68k Amiga but he likely has not played PPC console games on his PPC Amiga like hardware. I have seen teenagers playing retro PPC Nintendo Wii games at practically full speed on x86-64 hardware using emulation but then that emulation is likely faster than retro PPC Amiga like hardware that can't play retro PPC console games.

amigang Quote:

I started thinking cpu doesnít matter anymore and improving emulation / virtual cpu Amiga might be better way to go.

Like Pistorm shows us how cheap arm hardware can now turn classic Amiga into the top end system. I think a Ppc version of this would be pretty popular.


Do you suggest plugging a PPC CPU into a 68000 CPU socket or replacing the cheap mass produced ARM based RPi hardware with expensive niche market PPC hardware? What was the advantage that would make it popular?

amigang Quote:

interesting thread on PowerPC emulation being better on Arm chips
https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10702
Pi4 can emulate a g3 at roughly 300mhz speed, so pistorm ppc may be possible.


I agree the results are interesting. Apple is certainly winning the battle of using newer chip fab processes to change opinions on ARM AArch64 performance. Even the 14nm (AMD Ryzen 7) vs 7nm (Apple A12) vs 5nm (Apple M1) comparison results have suspiciously low results for the Ryzen. The x86-64 CISC performance advantage over RISC can likely be overcome with a single die shrink and surely so with two die shrinks but not by as much as these results show. ARM AArch64 has partially closed the performance gap with complexity similar to CISC except for reg-mem accesses. There was the following comment.

adespoton Quote:

Makes sense; ARM is essentially PPC, just with a few different extensions. ARM learned from the failed MIPS architecture.


It is possible that the similar AArch64 architecture can emulate PPC better because of similarities but there are significant differences in architecture too and the difference in emulation results even adjusted for chip fab process doesn't explain the large difference in performance. RISC-V is more similar to MIPS and practically a re-encoded evolution of it so maybe not a complete failure yet. AArch64 is a looser evolution of PPC even though they are both complex RISC-CISC hybrids, have 32 GP registers and have fixed length 32 bit encodings.

amigang Quote:

Plus it be great if Vampire / Apollo boards and system got emulated, either on pistorm or in uae. I know winuae guys not interested, which is a shame as I feel it would help grow that market slightly with 68080 & Ammx supported.


The division of the retro 68k market is a problem for it to be successful. The 68k Amiga user base may be approaching viability as a software target but it is difficult to target all devices due to lack of standardization and even difficulty in calculating the actual size of the market.

Last edited by matthey on 21-Aug-2022 at 05:39 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 18:04:58
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:

amigang Quote:

interesting thread on PowerPC emulation being better on Arm chips
https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10702
Pi4 can emulate a g3 at roughly 300mhz speed, so pistorm ppc may be possible.


I agree the results are interesting. Apple is certainly winning the battle of using newer chip fab processes to change opinions on ARM AArch64 performance. Even the 14nm (AMD Ryzen 7) vs 7nm (Apple A12) vs 5nm (Apple M1) comparison results have suspiciously low results for the Ryzen. The x86-64 CISC performance advantage over RISC can likely be overcome with a single die shrink and surely so with two die shrinks but not by as much as these results show. ARM AArch64 has partially closed the performance gap with complexity similar to CISC except for reg-mem accesses.

Apple's AArch64 microarchitectures do so good because the company put an IMPRESSIVE amount of resources on the chip & on each core to achieve that big performances.

You can start comparing the size of caches, the number of instructions decoded & retired, the number of ports AKA execution units, the number of registers, the number of instructions kept on-the-fly, etc. etc. etc.

Such cores are MONSTERS from a resource point-of-view, compared to the best (from purely performance PoV) x86/x64 microarchitecture.

It's not difficult to see why they are performing so good.

It's a RISC implementation which is solving the performance problems in two ways, and the most important / significative one is by using a HUGE numbers of resources (AKA transistors).
Quote:
There was the following comment.

adespoton Quote:

Makes sense; ARM is essentially PPC, just with a few different extensions. ARM learned from the failed MIPS architecture.


It is possible that the similar AArch64 architecture can emulate PPC better because of similarities but there are significant differences in architecture too and the difference in emulation results even adjusted for chip fab process doesn't explain the large difference in performance. RISC-V is more similar to MIPS and practically a re-encoded evolution of it so maybe not a complete failure yet. AArch64 is a looser evolution of PPC even though they are both complex RISC-CISC hybrids, have 32 GP registers and have fixed length 32 bit encodings.

The comment is clearly written by a noob which has no clue of PowerPC and ARM architectures.

ARM has nothing in common with PowerPC, besides the above points that you reported.

Besides that, it's a very complex architecture: one of the "most CISC". Which is the way that ARM chose to improve performances (which is "inherited" by Apple for its chips. That's the second way from my above comment).

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Zylesea 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 21-Aug-2022 22:13:56
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2241
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

Thing is, 68k users and ppc/AROSx86 ("NG) users developed into two very different user groups. NG users are those ppl wo want to use Amiga for modern things and try to push the platforn developing further.
On MorphOS for example we have modern web applications (browser, mailer) and a few more programs that allow to productively use these computers as a work horse.
On 68k it's more the retro thing. Games, demos, a little this and that. It's hobby stuff.
Eventually booting current MorphOS on a G5 is very different from booting AOS 3.x on some 68k machine.

Objectively one group is not better than the other (both is fine!). I am in the progressive (non-retro) group. And for example I see with the few programs I wrote that these are used far more by NG users than by 68k users.

Taken together it looks like that: Maybe there are actually more Vampire users out there than MorphOS and OS4 users combined. Nevertheless, on 68k there is no real modern browser or mail client or #?. There's simply no demand and no way. But nice boxed new games in best 90ies style. This kind of stuff sells. Unfortunately it's not the software I am most interested in. I rather like to see modern stuff - but that is my POV (I understand the retro users, too and I am pretty impressed by recent developments, really!)


To be honest, I think the "NG" users are just a bit disappointed that from the big 68k camp there is not much modern stuff arriving.

Then again for the modern stuff you need a modernized OS (compared to OS3.x) and a way faster cpu and powerful gfx. The Vampires or PiStorms simply don't offer that. They offer enough to squeeze out the max out of the 3.x world. Wich is nice, but I - and many others - left the 3.x world quite some years ago (IIRC I got my 1st Pegasos 2002 - 20 years ago!).

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agami 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 0:39:32
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Everything NutsAboutAmiga wrote in their response to:
@matthey and @cdimauro

Is this what I sounded like at the turn of the millennium?
In my defense, PPC still had legs back then, and I knew a lot less about business value chains, and supply chains.

Which mainboard?
Or rather, what kind of mainboard?
The question is and has always been somewhat of a dichotomy:
1. A highly integrated system with limited modularity and mainly external expansions, e.g. consoles, hobby boards, A500/A600/A1200, intel NUC, and the new M1 Mac mini and Mac Studio
2. A very open system, with high levels of modularity and expandability, internally and externally, e.g. S-100, VME, XT/AT, ATX with PCI et al.

Do we go with a highly integrated 68080/090 + AMMX with a single CPU-parallel slot for expansion, and the rest are USB?
or
Do we go with a mostly open system similar to the A-Eon Cyrus+ board with embedded CPU + PCIe and PCI slots?

Conventional wisdom suggests that unless you can guarantee a decent ecosystem of 1st and 3rd party expansion cards, an open system is not a good choice (value chain), which leaves us with a highly integrated system as the obvious choice until a larger ecosystem is created.

Apollo Stand-alone is a good Proof-of-Concept system. The data from the entire Apollo development, from early iterations to V4 cannot be ignored.

Last edited by agami on 22-Aug-2022 at 01:01 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 4:24:51
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3084
From: Germany

@Zylesea

Quote:

Zylesea wrote:
Thing is, 68k users and ppc/AROSx86 ("NG) users developed into two very different user groups. NG users are those ppl wo want to use Amiga for modern things and try to push the platforn developing further.
On MorphOS for example we have modern web applications (browser, mailer) and a few more programs that allow to productively use these computers as a work horse.
On 68k it's more the retro thing. Games, demos, a little this and that. It's hobby stuff.
Eventually booting current MorphOS on a G5 is very different from booting AOS 3.x on some 68k machine.

Objectively one group is not better than the other (both is fine!). I am in the progressive (non-retro) group. And for example I see with the few programs I wrote that these are used far more by NG users than by 68k users.

Taken together it looks like that: Maybe there are actually more Vampire users out there than MorphOS and OS4 users combined. Nevertheless, on 68k there is no real modern browser or mail client or #?. There's simply no demand and no way. But nice boxed new games in best 90ies style. This kind of stuff sells. Unfortunately it's not the software I am most interested in. I rather like to see modern stuff - but that is my POV (I understand the retro users, too and I am pretty impressed by recent developments, really!)


To be honest, I think the "NG" users are just a bit disappointed that from the big 68k camp there is not much modern stuff arriving.

Then again for the modern stuff you need a modernized OS (compared to OS3.x) and a way faster cpu and powerful gfx. The Vampires or PiStorms simply don't offer that. They offer enough to squeeze out the max out of the 3.x world. Wich is nice, but I - and many others - left the 3.x world quite some years ago (IIRC I got my 1st Pegasos 2002 - 20 years ago!).

The major point to be clarified is that there exist no "NG" post-Amiga platform.

AROS, MorphOS, and OS4 didn't solved any of the original Amiga o.s. design issues neither added support to new / modern technologies (Amiga already supported RTG / external graphic cards / MiniGL / Warp3D, AHI, up to 2GB memory, advanced desktop replacements -> Scalos and Directory Opus).

Essentially they are only reimplementations or ports of the same old APIs, with some slight new ones added (which, anyway, could be added as well).

What the 68K platform missed is essentially more memory (due to changed RAM technology) and CPU power (because 68060 was the last processor developed by the disastrous Motorola).

However those came thanks to emulation first and recently by new hardware platforms Vampire (the most limited now. But Gunnar announced that he will go to the ASIC route in future), PiStorm.

So, what's really lacking on the Amiga/68K is "just" the modern software that you talked about : a browser, primarily; a mailer isn't that important IMO (I don't use one from ages: webmail is enough for me). Which "only" requires that some expert does it or ports an existing one.

In short: the 68K platform is missing nothing from an o.s. / technology PoV and has no intrinsic limits. It's only missing some (one, IMO) software.

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Hammer 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 6:00:23
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4600
From: Australia

@amigang

Quote:

amigang wrote:
I started thinking cpu doesnít matter anymore and improving emulation / virtual cpu Amiga might be better way to go.

Like Pistorm shows us how cheap arm hardware can now turn classic Amiga into the top end system. I think a Ppc version of this would be pretty popular.
interesting thread on PowerPC emulation being better on Arm chips
https://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10702
Pi4 can emulate a g3 at roughly 300mhz speed, so pistorm ppc may be possible.

Plus it be great if Vampire / Apollo boards and system got emulated, either on pistorm or in uae. I know winuae guys not interested, which is a shame as I feel it would help grow that market slightly with 68080 & Ammx supported.

Lastly I think it would be cool if PowerPC emulation of say a full Os4 system, like qemu does feature Sam440 system
https://youtu.be/ilc88nJQ3OM
But a much easier emulator, maybe developed from this thatís designed just for os4 would be nice.


AmigaOS 4.1's 68K emulation wouldn't survive WHDLoad 68K Amiga games. Apple's CPU migration approach wouldn't work for Amiga's game console approach.

PiStorm/Pi 3a/bare metal Emu68's CPU migration approach follows Transmeta's Code Morphing Software approach that is closer to X86's CISC-to-RISC hybrids. This CPU backward compatibility approach operates below the OS.

Consider the CPU emulation's placement.

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Hammer 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 6:39:41
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4600
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

I agree the results are interesting. Apple is certainly winning the battle of using newer chip fab processes to change opinions on ARM AArch64 performance. Even the 14nm (AMD Ryzen 7) vs 7nm (Apple A12) vs 5nm (Apple M1) comparison results have suspiciously low results for the Ryzen. The x86-64 CISC performance advantage over RISC can likely be overcome with a single die shrink and surely so with two die shrinks but not by as much as these results show. ARM AArch64 has partially closed the performance gap with complexity similar to CISC except for reg-mem accesses. There was the following comment.

FYI, Ryzen Zen 3/Zen 3-3D is currently using TSMC's 7 nm. By near the end of this month, AMD Zen 4 arrives with TSMC 5 nm. 14nm Zen 1.0 is too far from the current 7nm Zen 3 and 5 nm Zen 4.

Each Zen 4 core has nearly twice the cache bandwidth and supports AVX4-512. AMD is going to game Apple's favorite benchmarks.

AMD's other approach is a low-cost approach with handheld PC gaming e.g. Steam Deck's 7nm Van Gogh APU. X86 hardware vendors are building SteamDeck clones from AMD Rembrandt and Intel Alder Lake mobile APUs.

Apple's AArch64 clone doesn't benefit the rest of the AArch64 ecosystem just as Apple's PPC usage didn't benefit the rest of PPC ecosystem. CPU instruction set compatibility is not enough to beat the X86/UEFI/ACPI HAL PC standard clone business model.

Recall from history, fragmented old-school RISC vendors were better than X86, and PC's clone army business model rendered old-school RISC vendors into a small market niche.

ARM development board standards are fragmented just like their fragmented old-school RISC vendors.

PS; I own many ARM devices and they are a fragmented mess. My Apple iPad Mini is a dead-end door stop while the Amiga 500's accelerator market continues to evolve. I have a small stack of ARM Android phones (i.e. Google Nexus 5/Pixel 1/2/3) that are Vulkan API capable (since Google Nexus 5), and they are dead-end door stops. I also own Samsung Android/ARM phones e.g. S6 and my current S22 phone. The standard response from ARM advocates, learn to modify and compile Linux.

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Hammer 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 6:57:33
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4600
From: Australia

@matthey

Quote:

(Win)UAE emulation was likely the most common 68k Amiga experience which remains popular on x86-64 for high performance emulation while low cost emulation on the Raspberry Pi has likely increased the most.


PiStorm Facebook group has 2,454 members while the Commodore-Amiga Facebook group has 27,364 members. PiStorm Facebook group's membership is increasing on a weekly basis.

Preconfigured PiStorm/Pi 3a/Emu68/32 GB MicroSD is about $100-to-$135 USD.

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Amiga 500 (rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi3a/Emu68)

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amigang 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 22-Aug-2022 10:04:11
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1907
From: Cheshire, England

@matthey

Quote:
Do you suggest plugging a PPC CPU into a 68000 CPU socket or replacing the cheap mass produced ARM based RPi hardware with expensive niche market PPC hardware? What was the advantage that would make it popular?


No sorry for the confusion, what I would purpose is not having the Pi emulate 68000 platform. But have the pi emulate a Ppc board, as like you point out producing another expensive ppc product is maybe not the way to go.

The big problem is Ppc emulation has not had as much work on it, which I feel is a shame. I remember when WinUAE first got Ppc support, Os4 classic sold out, which kinda proves there a demand / market there.

Like I point out Pi4 can emulate G3 at roughly 300mhz speeds and thatís with qemu not the most optimised way of doing it.

But that still as fast as most of the PPC add on boards that came out for the Amiga, CyberVision PPC, Blizzard PPC where only around 100mhz
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerUP_(accelerator)

Surly a pi4 / pistorm could emulate these boards.

Last edited by amigang on 22-Aug-2022 at 10:06 AM.

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