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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 9:39:31
#61 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Ok but,

what do you believe is true of the 2009 Settlement Agreement between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 10:16:42
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Hans

Quote:
Writing drivers for the on-board GPU is a distinct possibility. It would be easier if ARM manufacturer's wouldn't be so darn secretive about how their hardware works. Very few are willing to release the hardware reference manuals.


That's interesting. I wonder how boards like the Pi managed to get so popular if the average SoC is private. But, I don't have one so don't know how open it is, nor if they just provide binary drivers like Radeon do for Linux.

Quote:
I'm quite impressed with the Linux drivers created via reverse engineering, but it really shouldn't be necessary.


Yes that would make it extra hard.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 10:18:44
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@m0lebrain

Quote:
I had a good time there! Lots of cool new hardware and old stuff too! I even arm wrestled David Haynie and Trevor. Good times!


So, who won the game, someone with a StrongARM winning the bet?

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 10:35:47
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Perhaps it's just having had a PPC board fail (admittedly one with known issues) that's attuned my thinking to the inevitability of the last PPC board dying and the prohibitive cost of manufacturing any new ones. What then? You either give up or end up running in an emulator regardless.


I see your point. The same could be said of 68K Amigas failing. My A4000 is in stable working order again when I need it. But it is convenient to have UAE. I must admit, with space constraints, I'm more likely to just use UAE on the laptop and since mapping RAmiag to RCtrl it feels more Amiga like.

There's always going to be talk about some PC running cheaper and faster than some PPC board. And it seems the longer time goes on, the faster the PC becomes and the more expensive some PPC board becomes without being much more powerful and sometimes less. Some things won't change.

What I hear a lot is PC people saying their PC can emulate 68K software faster than any PPC on OS4. So what? Do they feel special? At this point they've already missed the point. People don't buy an AmigaOne to run crusty old 68K software, or even newer 68K software, they buy it to have a newer AmigaOS and newer software on a new platform. Now, 68K support is a bonus with OS4, but it would be unacceptable if it didn't transparently work out of the box or at all. But I tend to think if the time comes, and OS4 is at a dead spot, it might be time to let the dream go. Forget talk of porting to this or that. And then I would say to the PC people, do you know there is something called Windows, that runs these native applications even faster than it can emulate 68K programs? I would tell them to try it sometime and be shocked. But Amithlon runs Amiga software faster on my PC the say. And Windows runs even faster than Amithlon emulating I would tell them.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 10:56:57
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
This isn't possible anymore because for most of 68k applications there's no source code available.


That's too bad for them. Like PPC apps using the current API. They will need to be sandboxed.

Quote:
This is what I've stated years ago in this forum.


I must have missed it. I just have a hypothesis about it in recent times. I don't know what tools would help in producing a custom compiler as the idea is rather quirky.

Quote:
Actually even the very old Intel's Atoms had this instruction added. Only old processors haven't it.


Well established then.

Quote:
Sure: it can be done. Worst case using the BSWAP & ROL/ROR instructions instead of MOVBE for old processors.


I don't know of the instruction timings as sometimes the convenience of one operation can be more costly than splitting it. However, I think one instruction to do it would be best, as it reduces code size and keeps the code more simple. As to old processors, well forget them, just concentrate on what's new and currently available.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 11:11:04
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

What I hear a lot is PC people saying their PC can emulate 68K software faster than any PPC on OS4. So what? Do they feel special? At this point they've already missed the point. People don't buy an AmigaOne to run crusty old 68K software, or even newer 68K software, they buy it to have a newer AmigaOS and newer software on a new platform.

The real missed point is that there was and there's no new o.s.: OS4 is a port of the original Amiga o.s. to a new hardware platform.

Similar to AROS and MorphOS which are a reimplementation of the original o.s. to new hardware platforms (and even the original one for AROS).

There's nothing new that those o.ses could do that the original one can't (with proper hardware).
Quote:
Now, 68K support is a bonus with OS4, but it would be unacceptable if it didn't transparently work out of the box or at all.

It'll happen if you move to a little-endian platform, or just to a 64-bit one (even big endian).

There's no escape for that.

This transparent 68k emulation works only because the new processor has the same "size" and endianess of the 68k family. So, not for some special features which allowed it.
Quote:
But I tend to think if the time comes, and OS4 is at a dead spot, it might be time to let the dream go

After more than a dozen years people continues to dream.

The situation is what it is since very very long time, but the real problem is that people are so viscerally attached to this platform that they ignore the reality and continue to live dreaming and dreaming again that there'll be a future for it. Dreams are acting like opium...

The reality is different: not event the ExecSG kernel on Trevor's hands or Amikit's System54 will change the situation.

"It's inevitable"...
Quote:
Forget talk of porting to this or that. And then I would say to the PC people, do you know there is something called Windows, that runs these native applications even faster than it can emulate 68K programs? I would tell them to try it sometime and be shocked. But Amithlon runs Amiga software faster on my PC the say. And Windows runs even faster than Amithlon emulating I would tell them.

The problem is that Amigans like to use their applications on the same environment. Plus, many of those had no port to Windows.

So, the only solution is emulation. And it's right: on PC is way faster (and could be made even faster).

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Bosanac 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 11:16:58
#67 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 255
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
MorphOS still exists today and almost exactly as described. So what's the problem? Well, it's not AmigaOS, but it works in the same kind of way.


No, the MorphOS we have today is just the A/Box.

A clone of the Amiga OS, with all its limitations.

The Q/Box would have been as you described earlier with MP, SMP etc.

Think how Mac Classic (A/Box) environment was on MacOS X (Q/Box).

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Hans 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 13:25:57
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5067
From: New Zealand

@Hypex

Quote:
That's interesting. I wonder how boards like the Pi managed to get so popular if the average SoC is private. But, I don't have one so don't know how open it is, nor if they just provide binary drivers like Radeon do for Linux.

It works well with the closed-source drivers. Only some people care if the entire OS + drivers is open-source.

IIRC, at least one of the older Raspberry Pi series' documentation is now fully open and available. The VideoCore IV's documentation is now open, which is great for the Pi 3. I haven't seen the documentation for the Pi 4's Videocore VI, though.

Likewise, I haven't seen hardware reference manuals for Mali GPUs. ARM provides closed source binaries and an SDK.

Hans

_________________
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number6 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 13:47:03
#69 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11589
From: In the village

@matthey

Re:Blaze Evercade as h/w specifically

Having spent a great deal of time with people supporting the consoles currently offered that -have- been able to deliver despite all the impediments of recent years...

1st, Evercade unlike the more powerful Switch fills a niche for these packages of older s/w. It offers companies like Intellivision and soon Amiga to get these less processor intensive offerings a wider market for distribution. This was discussed in length over at Intellivision at the time, as people wondered why newer s/w was not discussed in terms of the Evercade. It simply does not have the power, nor is it the point of the system. This is also why Amiga s/w is the perfect candidate to add to the Evercade.

2nd, we've discussed for years how to get more exposure for the Amiga name outside of our tiny (face it, we're not big) community. Evercade has the potential to expose Amiga s/w to a very wide audience beyond our little world.

3rd please take Mike's words at face value. He's doing what is perfectly legal and has repeatedly stated he is extremely "risk averse". People have encouraged him to do more. He has said that in plain english. Please do not assume that this means there -are- not nor -were- any future plans extending beyond what has already being achieved. For starters, just think of all the new relationships that have been cultivated through all the deals made through many companies. Then consider how others will view this. Here is someone willing to work together with others. Is that not a good sign?

More about relationships:
In case you didn't follow some of the other events that visually illustrate who stands up to establish and support new relationships, you might want to watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pU5BVd4wU0&ab_channel=MyRetroComputerLtd
Beyond the names mentioned in the video, even more "names" jumped into this in the comment section of Sean's last 2 videos.

Perhaps in some way David' Pleasance's initiative will tie in with this at David's presentation today at AmiWest. It's not rocket science to see which "entities" work towards co-operation and which seek to destroy.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 23-Oct-2022 at 03:08 PM.

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matthey 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 23-Oct-2022 19:26:08
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2059
From: Kansas

#6 Quote:

Re:Blaze Evercade as h/w specifically

Having spent a great deal of time with people supporting the consoles currently offered that -have- been able to deliver despite all the impediments of recent years...

1st, Evercade unlike the more powerful Switch fills a niche for these packages of older s/w. It offers companies like Intellivision and soon Amiga to get these less processor intensive offerings a wider market for distribution. This was discussed in length over at Intellivision at the time, as people wondered why newer s/w was not discussed in terms of the Evercade. It simply does not have the power, nor is it the point of the system. This is also why Amiga s/w is the perfect candidate to add to the Evercade.

2nd, we've discussed for years how to get more exposure for the Amiga name outside of our tiny (face it, we're not big) community. Evercade has the potential to expose Amiga s/w to a very wide audience beyond our little world.

3rd please take Mike's words at face value. He's doing what is perfectly legal and has repeatedly stated he is extremely "risk averse". People have encouraged him to do more. He has said that in plain english. Please do not assume that this means there -are- not nor -were- any future plans extending beyond what has already being achieved. For starters, just think of all the new relationships that have been cultivated through all the deals made through many companies. Then consider how others will view this. Here is someone willing to work together with others. Is that not a good sign?


Yes, it is important to build a a good reputation, make good deals and cooperate with other businesses. I believe CBM's poor reputation and inability to seal deals with other businesses was a major contributor to their demise (another upper management failure).

#6 Quote:

More about relationships:
In case you didn't follow some of the other events that visually illustrate who stands up to establish and support new relationships, you might want to watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pU5BVd4wU0&ab_channel=MyRetroComputerLtd
Beyond the names mentioned in the video, even more "names" jumped into this in the comment section of Sean's last 2 videos.

Perhaps in some way David' Pleasance's initiative will tie in with this at David's presentation today at AmiWest. It's not rocket science to see which "entities" work towards co-operation and which seek to destroy.


While I would rather see more of an open hand rather than closed fist retro business policy, there are concerns in the retro computer/console market. Flooding the market with a low quality retro experience could lead to something like the 1983 video game market crash. The Amiga or other retro names could be tarnished on low quality products. It is preferable to be respectful to the original hardware like other antiques. Faithful and upgraded recreations of an antique car are good but replacing the engine with a more modern, higher performance and more reliable Toyota engine kills the nostalgia, especially if the original engine was good and can be upgraded. The power band, sound and feel changes with a new engine while bastardization is needed for the motor mounts, drive shaft, intake and exhaust leading to incompatibility. Adding more modern features like fuel injection, better flowing head/intake and exhaust can preserve and even enhance the original experience while making it a more practical engine. The AmigaNowhere and PPC AmigaNOne hardware and experience are examples of not having enough in common with the original Amiga that not only was Amiga retro appeal lost but they were seen as bastardizations of the Amiga and abuse of the Amiga name for marketing purposes (AmigaNOne at least uses the AmigaOS but that was not enough for most Amiga users/fans). Nostalgia is a fine line to walk though. The C64x may be ok because the engine is ancient and can't be improved to anywhere close to modern which most C64 fans understand but some just want the look and some of the feel without the full C64 experience. It's even better if the C64x cases allow original C64 motherboards and recreated/FPGA motherboards to be placed inside. The Amiga is different though. With a few enhancements, it already feels nearly modern. It is modern enough that it can be upgraded to at least economy car performance and maybe better later. It can be practical, fun and cheap while retaining the feel and without bastardization even if it won't compete in performance with high end modern exotic sports cars anytime soon.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Oct-2022 at 07:29 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 5:16:12
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:
they seem to have a compiler that creates a new binary after first started on the new platform. So first time a user wants to start a program there is a lag, later it is faster. I think one binary can include different hardware platforms


Yes it's just a fat binary. They just compile for all targets and bundle all the binaries in one universal file. Nothing special going on here. So they don't have any fancy VM CPU code that gets compiled to host CPU at load time. The AmigaDE idea would help to reduce a fat binary into one format. But Java was doing the same sort of thing.

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cdimauro 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 5:17:55
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@bennymee

Quote:

bennymee wrote:
@cdimauro

We should give them a few days: they announced for Amiwest 2022 some kind of demo ;)

Amiganews.de AmiWest show report (english)

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 24-Oct-2022 5:33:40
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:




AH, THE NEW EXCECSG BOING BALL!!!!



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agami 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 8:25:15
#74 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1678
From: Melbourne, Australia

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Quote:
MEGA_RJ_MICAL wrote:
Quote:
cdimauro wrote:



AH, THE NEW EXCECSG BOING BALL!!!!

You know how doomsdayers will shout about the impending end of the world, like before Y2k or the Mayan calendar 2012, and then when the day comes and passes they're just silent and nowhere to be found.

That silence is is what I'm hearing now.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 25-Oct-2022 9:21:30
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@agami

BUT WAIT!



For a frame you can briefly see TWO balls tumbling at the same time!!

SMP ACHIEVED!!!!!!




/mega




thanks for your submission

Last edited by MEGA_RJ_MICAL on 25-Oct-2022 at 09:22 AM.

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BSzili 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 9:29:50
#76 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 447
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

They are not the same size, so it's only AMP. Darn, the people who said SMP on Amiga was impossible were right!

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 12:13:43
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

@BSzili

Now, now, that's the spirit, friend BSzili.

You honor your avatar.






/M!

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Hypex 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 14:28:11
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11233
From: Greensborough, Australia

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Two balls? Now that's funny. Ha!

I've prepared this Milli Vanilli cover version in inspiration.

I'm in love with two balls, cause you're on my mind
You're the ones I think about most every time
And when you crack a smile in everything you do
Don't you understand, balls? This love is true
You’re soft, silky hand long, sweet and thin
That candlelight complexion upon your skin
It lightens up my day, and that's oh so true
Together, we're one, separated we're two
To make you all mine, all mine is my desire
Cause you contain a quality that I admire
You're pretty plain and simple, you rule my world
So try to understand

[Pre-Chorus]
I'm in love, balls
I'm in so love, balls
I'm just in love, balls
And this is true

[Chorus]
Balls, you know it's true
Ooh, ooh, ooh, I love you
Yes, you know it's true
Ooh, ooh, ooh, I love you
Balls, you know it's true
My love is for you
Balls, you know it's true
My love is for you

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Bosanac 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 26-Oct-2022 14:40:49
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 255
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
They just compile for all targets and bundle all the binaries in one universal file. Nothing special going on here. So they don't have any fancy VM CPU code that gets compiled to host CPU at load time.


They do, Rosetta 2 does AOT translation of Intel binaries to ARM on the first run.

https://ffri.github.io/ProjectChampollion/part1/

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Jose 
Re: Amiga37 News
Posted on 27-Oct-2022 20:27:40
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 995
From: Unknown

I had some hopes on OpenPower ...

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