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bhabbott 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 10-Dec-2022 12:51:39
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 330
From: Aotearoa

Quote:

SHADES wrote:

It just opens up so much more scope to get things on when you apply such a well adopted spec like USB.

'Well adopted', but complex and needs a lot of software support.


Quote:
CF cards are still niche,

CF cards are still readily available, and much easier to work with than USB.

Quote:
like older cameras and embedded board. CF instead of IDE maybe but buffer it and attach to DMA would be nice. Not CPU polling modes.

CF cards are fast enough that polling is fine for normal use.

Why do Amiga fans have to make everything so hard?

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kolla 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 10-Dec-2022 16:57:25
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@bhabbott

Because some of us have experience from Amiga systems with DMA SCSI? :)

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Wol 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 10-Dec-2022 21:27:23
#23 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1003
From: UK.......Sol 3.

@kolla

So true !

It's really painful having to use IDE.....

Wol.

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bhabbott 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 11-Dec-2022 4:35:22
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 330
From: Aotearoa

@Wol

Quote:

Wol wrote:

It's really painful having to use IDE.....

You have no idea what real pain is. I have an Amstrad PC2086 (8MHz 8086 clone with onboard VGA) which came with a 30MB Western Digital XT-IDE hard drive. The 20MB version of this drive gets ~150kB/s in the A590. On the Amstrad? 37kB/s! But hey, 0% CPU usage under DMA, right? That's not much comfort when everything take ages to load.

The no-brand 2GB CF card in my Vampired A600 gets 2.8MB/s. The top of the line Quantum 120MB SCSI drive that cost me NZ$1000 back in 1991 could only manage ~900kB/s in my 060 equipped A3000. The other thing these figures don't show is the CF Card's much lower latency. Icons appear on the Workbench almost instantaneously, whereas with a spinning rust drive you can hear it seeking wildly as it finds each file. The interface is less important than the drive itself.

Getting multiple SCSI devices to play nice on the A3000 was a nightmare. If the stars didn't align quite right it became unstable or didn't work at all, or worse the boot drive got corrupted. That was painful too. I would rather have a reliable setup than one that is faster but flaky.

CF cards also work in a cheap PCMCIA adapter. I have an SD to CF card adapter that works with SD cards that I have harvested out of old cell phones. With these I can easily transfer gigabytes of data between the A600 and A1200, or have data collections on them that can be used in both machines. This is a lot easier than fiddling with SCSI cables, ID switches and terminators, only to find it still doesn't work reliably.

Maybe it would be even faster with DMA, but for me the Amiga's IDE and PCMCIA ports are plenty fast enough. Certainly much faster (and more convenient) than what I had to put up with 'back in the day'. But nothing less than 'top' performance is good enough for the Amiga fan. He will spend many dollars and hours of frustration eeking out that last bit of performance so he can crow about how his system is faster, then call anything less 'painful'.

To me that's the painful part. One would would have though that after 25 years of irrelevancy we could just enjoy our retro machines without this BS. But no, the Amiga fan won't let it go. Ever envious and still trying to shake off feelings of inadequacy, he will never be satisfied with something that could theoretically be better.

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Wol 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 11-Dec-2022 9:32:54
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1003
From: UK.......Sol 3.

@bhabbott

I understand your comments, Iv,e done al ot of that stuff myself Hehe.

I used to do a lot of video work with my A4000 Z7 Tower ,
Spec:
CyberstormPPC 233/50 128Mb
CyberVisionPPC, CyberVision 64
SCSI 3 UW with 4 HDD's and 2 CDROM's
Quad Monitor, 2x17in , 14in on AGA, 14in on Vlab Motion.

All 7 Zorro slots were filled with RTG, Memory, Comms etc,
had some extra fans stuffed in to keep it cool, also had a
Yamaha Wavetable card hard wired to the motherboard serial i/o
for Midi output,

The SCSI setup was rock solid, I could leave the Amiga for days chewing
through video frames.
I did make sure that all the SCSI termination was done correctly,
however I once connected an external SCSI scanner, it totally screwed
up the SCSI bus causing lots of (scsi disconnects).

The wole system in in mothballs now, sadly not got any of the CRT monitors any
more, modern flat pannel stuf can't do Amiga SFX, they just blackout.

Wol.

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g01df1sh 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 12-Dec-2022 21:56:47
#26 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2009
Posts: 1777
From: UK

Check out this monitor

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/checkmate1500mini/retro-styled-modular-ips-display-for-old-and-new-systems?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=stephen%20jones


_________________
A1200 ACA1232 128MB Indivison MkIICr
Elbox empty Power Tower
RPi3 Emulating C64 ZX Atari PS BBC
Wii with Amiga emulation
Vampire v4 SA

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SHADES 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 12-Dec-2022 22:38:59
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@bhabbott

Quote:
'Well adopted', but complex and needs a lot of software support.


Just like everything needs support. What does it bring to the ecosystem?

Quote:
CF cards are still readily available, and much easier to work with than USB.


Debatable. USB is much more widely used and has many more uses than CF does.

Quote:
CF cards are fast enough that polling is fine for normal use. Why do Amiga fans have to make everything so hard?


CF cards maybe fast enough for you, that's debatable for the rest of us.
Polling the CPU steals a lot of horsepower that could be used on other tasks like manipulating audio with effects or compression and so many other things that this is stupid trying to note them.

Why do AMIGA fans make everything so hard? AMIGA used to lead the way with making products that were considered impossible at the time. Why are you happy with sloppy mediocrity?

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Hammer 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 13-Dec-2022 5:41:41
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
Quote:

Hammer wrote:

32-bit 386DX capable PCs were able to upgrade their slow IBM EGA/VGA into fast VGA/SVGA clones e.g. ET4000AX.

ISA Bus VGA card benchmarks
Write speed on 11MHz ISA bus (37% overclocked), AMD K5-PR133 CPU:-
TVGA9000B 1.3 MB/s
Cirrus Logic GD5422 4.4 MB/s
ET4000AX 5.5 MB/s
S3 928 5.5 MB/s

A good ISA bus VGA card was faster than a crappy one, but none were that fast. The A1200 does 7 MB/s.

FYI, 386DX40 with ET4000AX ISA and A1200 with 68050 @ 50Mhz + Fast RAM has similar Doom results.

For the 1993 time period, the PC wasn't limited to ISA bus SVGA cards since PC has faster VLB and Intel's Saturn PCI chipset was released in November 1992.

Zorro III's Buster can do about 14 MB/s while Saturn PCI chipset can do about 25 MB/s.
The Buster needs further refinement to reach the theoretical bandwidth limits.

For A1200, bandwidth to Chip Memory is about 7 MB/s (~6.99 MB/s) and only the CPU can do that.

Stock A1200's 32-bit Chip RAM shared memory design and AGA chipset still need 2 clocks to complete single CPU access just like OCS/ECS.

A1200's CPU access cycle is still the same, it takes two DMA slots, the first is used to transfer address data to Agnus/Lisa and second cycle does the data transfer to/from CPU.

With faster system memory, the PC CPU minimizes ping-pong memory access with the ISA slot's VGA.

Amiga OCS/ECS handles data with up to 6-bit planes (e.g. Dual playfields, EHB, HAM6) while AGA has with handles data with up to 8-bit planes.

Lisa's 8 hardware sprite engines have 4X improvements.

A1200's 68EC020 needs local 32-bit fast memory since 68EC020 @ 14 Mhz has barrel shifter hardware @ 14 Mhz.

Amiga 3000's 32-bit Chip RAM seems to be fast enough for AGA-on-ECS drop-in-replacement chips.

Amiga 500 would need MegaChip style Chip RAM update with AGA-on-ECS drop-in-replacement chips.

Amiga 3000/4000's PCB design can handle 25 Mhz which is faster than the lesser A1200's 14 Mhz PCB design. Too bad Amiga 3000/4000 didn't have graphics chipset exploit A3000/A4000's PCB design improvements.


Last edited by Hammer on 13-Dec-2022 at 05:44 AM.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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kolla 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 13-Dec-2022 20:40:38
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

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bhabbott 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 0:10:27
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 330
From: Aotearoa

@g01df1sh

Quote:

g01df1sh wrote:
Check out this monitor

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/checkmate1500mini/retro-styled-modular-ips-display-for-old-and-new-systems?ref=nav_search&result=project&term=stephen%20jones



I checked it out, got enthused, then disappointed. Turns out it's not much more than a standard LCD with the upscaler of your choice. Thus it suffers the same flaws, either too expensive or not accurate enough to replace a CRT. The case design is nice though.

Now if someone could hack the firmware of a popular LCD panel to do 15kHz modes without a poxy upscaler, or perhaps even convince LCD manufacturers include it in their products - then I would be interested.

Meanwhile... today I bought a small CRT TV for $1, which has both component and S-video inputs. With a simple RGB to component converter this should work with all my retro home computers, while providing a better picture than an LCD with cheap upscaler. Not expecting the tube resolution to be great, but for games it should be perfect!


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bhabbott 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 1:15:08
#31 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 330
From: Aotearoa

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

FYI, 386DX40 with ET4000AX ISA and A1200 with 68050 @ 50Mhz + Fast RAM has similar Doom results.

Yes, I know that. (assuming you mean 68030...).

Quote:
For the 1993 time period, the PC wasn't limited to ISA bus SVGA cards since PC has faster VLB and Intel's Saturn PCI chipset was released in November 1992.

Sure the PC wan't limited to ISA, but you might be surprised by how many machines still used it.

This week I bought a 486DX2-66 PC in original condition (apart from the CMOS battery leaking over the motherboard and destroying it). This machine was manufactured by Artec, a New Zealand PC clone 'manufacturer' who advertised in computer magazines and newspapers. Compared to name brand computers sold in retail stores their prices for 'equivalent' specs were excellent, so they were very popular. Amiga fans drooled over what they could get in a PC for so little money that the Amiga couldn't match.

However when I looked inside what I find? A nice Soyo 486 motherboard with 3 VL bus slots, an ESS Audiodrive 16 bit sound card with 2x CDROM drive, the usual multi-IO card with every port you might want, and... a crappy Trident 8900 ISA bus video card!

On the hard drive I found Windows 95 and Microsoft Office 97 (along with a few 'interesting' letters that really should have been scrubbed off before the computer was sold) which showed what this machine was used for - business stuff. The users were probably blissfully unaware that it would work better with a VL bus video card.

The video card was manufactured in October 1993, and the sound card was dated August 1994. This indicates that the machine was probably built some time in the second half of 1994. Interestingly the Panasonic CDROM drive used a proprietary 40 pin 8 bit PIO interface, because the ATAPI standard hadn't been taken up yet even though IDE had been out for years. The sound card had four different interfaces on it to suit the various CDROM drives of the day.

Things developed fast in the PC world during the 90's, but this machine shows that even in 1994 new PCs were still using older hardware. For the majority of users it didn't matter, the price was more important and they would never know the difference.

Quote:
Amiga 3000/4000's PCB design can handle 25 Mhz which is faster than the lesser A1200's 14 Mhz PCB design. Too bad Amiga 3000/4000 didn't have graphics chipset exploit A3000/A4000's PCB design improvements.

The A3000 and A4000 could take RTG cards, which had been in use for several years before that. The AGA chipset was just a base level thrown onto the A4000 motherboard to make it compatible with older less capable Amigas, like PC motherboards started to do in the 90's (first with onboard VGA chipsets, then shared memory video built into an 'all-in-one' motherboard chip). As with PCs, it was expected that 'power' users would install a higher performance video card.

Last edited by bhabbott on 17-Dec-2022 at 01:21 AM.
Last edited by bhabbott on 17-Dec-2022 at 01:17 AM.

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kolla 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 2:00:47
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

A4000 was the developer’s system targeting those making games and software for A1200 and CD32, which were the systems targeting the masses, so naturally it needed AGA as it existed on those systems. Of course it had other uses too, but having same AGA chipset was pretty much a must. Sure, one could do development on A1200 too, but that kinda relied on third party acc. boards.

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terminills 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 3:36:56
#33 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1472
From: Unknown

@bhabbott

http://15khz.wikidot.com/

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QuikSanz 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 5:01:10
#34 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@terminills,

A bit off topic for most posts I see, but on topic I want see what a set of these things can do. They need encouragement to bring it!

Going OT does not help the cause. Actually 30Mhz is too low for my main, maybe an indivision can be used with it. We shall see if it see's the light of day. but no support, no chips.

Chris


Last edited by QuikSanz on 17-Dec-2022 at 05:08 AM.

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QuikSanz 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 5:10:03
#35 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@terminills

Actually you seem to help not hinder so not aimed @ you

Chris

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cdimauro 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 23-Jan-2023 5:58:02
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@bhabbott

Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

However this doesn't mean that the Blitter has 2x or 4x speed. In fact, it still processes data 16-bit at the time, for each ColorClock.
You are assuming that's so.

I've just reported the FACTs about the CURRENT status.
Quote:
But a redesigned blitter could work faster.

Could = current status? Clearly no, right?
Quote:
Just in case you missed it;

I have missed nothing: I've read all available documentation at the time, before writing the post that you quoted.
Quote:
Quote:
The on board RAM is fast enough to perform a 64-bit read per 7MHz clock cycle without caching. Regardless of the FMODE, Willoe will always read all (aligned) 64-bytes from the address requested if it is not already cached and add this to the cache. Thus, in 1x and 2x modes, Willoe automagically uses as little as 25% or 50% bus time.

The RAM is on the Willoe board (not the motherboard) and is always read 64 bits at a time. That means a 4x speed blitter could process up to four 16 bit words per 7MHz clock cycle.

Which is clearly and plainly wrong, as I've already written before.
Quote:
If this works it will be awesome - the AGA chipset we should have got!

So, again, wishful thinking...
Quote:
More importantly, we will be able to build new Amigas (and keep old ones going) without being stymied by the shrinking supply of original chips. 2MB Agnus chips are selling for ridiculous prices now, which makes this enhanced replacement even more attractive.

Nothing to say about that, but this is completely different from my technical analysis about the CURRENT status of the project.
Quote:

bhabbott wrote:
Quote:

Hammer wrote:

32-bit 386DX capable PCs were able to upgrade their slow IBM EGA/VGA into fast VGA/SVGA clones e.g. ET4000AX.

ISA Bus VGA card benchmarks
Write speed on 11MHz ISA bus (37% overclocked), AMD K5-PR133 CPU:-
TVGA9000B 1.3 MB/s
Cirrus Logic GD5422 4.4 MB/s
ET4000AX 5.5 MB/s
S3 928 5.5 MB/s

A good ISA bus VGA card was faster than a crappy one, but none were that fast. The A1200 does 7 MB/s.

You report again the same wrong numbers. I've already shown time ago, when you reported the first links, that you are wrong.

Repeating the same doesn't make it true.
Quote:
Quote:
Upgrading OCS/ECS Amigas with a full 32-bit 68K CPU with 32-bit Fast RAM to AGA would follow the PC's upgrade path.

Better late than never.

It's never too late for the Amiga. We're just getting started!

LOL You're hopeless...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 29-Jan-2023 10:05:23
#37 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 762
From: Unknown

replace chip by chip is bad idea
better is to put everything in one fpga

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SHADES 
Re: Hope you noticed, Kipper2K custom chips
Posted on 31-Jan-2023 22:18:48
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 865
From: Melbourne

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
replace chip by chip is bad idea better is to put everything in one fpga

Vampire v4 and others have already done this.

Kipper2K is about replacing the no longer made chipset with compatible, manufactured replacements that can also, offer enhanced performance and newer functions, on the original motherboard.

Why?

Because the old chipsets are dying and are no longer made.
While at it, why not make them better than the originals. That's why.

Want a complete motherboard replacement including new board on one FPGA, go get a Vampire.

Last edited by SHADES on 31-Jan-2023 at 10:19 PM.

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