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      /  CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
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OneTimer1 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 0:49:03
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 768
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

For a future AmigaOID, no one should ask for the CPU, they should ask how to get the software on something in existence.

But Amiga fans where used to buy the OS bundled with a specific hardware, that was mounted into a keyboard case, with the brand name Amiga on it.

This might never happen again and most home- and personal computer companies, who sold such systems have disappeared for a good reason.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 1:10:00
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

For a future AmigaOID, no one should ask for the CPU, they should ask how to get the software on something in existence.

But Amiga fans where used to buy the OS bundled with a specific hardware, that was mounted into a keyboard case, with the brand name Amiga on it.


Exactly, friend OneTimer1.

And about the "But" part - that's Apple for you!

Appleites buy their MacOS (which is what really matters to them), in a stylish brushed metal thingie with the apple logo on it (which is what secondarily matters to them), and they keep not giving a shit whether inside it's PPC, or X86, or Arm.

Hardware is now irrelevant.
But go try explain it to our nimrods here.



p.s. sorry but I won't let this get lost in the winds of padding.



Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Thread

Silicon is great! Some silicon is forged into a central processing unit! These are like "little cities" (credit: Björk). Some have more cache and some run at a higher frequencies! Some...



Yes BigD,

we know you like silicon.

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 3:08:58
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@bhabbott

Quote:
The same could be said for most mature technologies. Take the modern motor car for example. They all drive on the same roads, have the same controls, take the same fuels etc. Some may be faster, or have more room inside or are more stylish etc., but as far as the driver is concerned what's 'under the hood' is irrelevant. Yet motor car enthusiasts still engage in endless banter on 'hardware' differences between drive chains. And why not? Life is a lot duller for those who just do 'driving' or 'computing' without appreciating the technologies that make these activities possible.

Oh no you don't.

It's not "just banter". It's people making emphatic claims that the DeLorean Motor Co. could've been saved if it switched to a rotary engine, or that Hummer would be the dominant brand of SUVs if GM switched it to an an electric drivetrain for torque, and packaged as a Plug-in Hybrid for range.

It's one thing to "banter" about personal preferences. It's another thing to claim that unless it is running with a naturally aspirated, non-computer fuel injected internal combustion four-stoke engine, it is not an automobile. With the former, it's about engaging in a conversation, with the latter emphatic style, it's intention is to end a conversation.

Furthermore, your car analogy only (loosely) applies to the Microsoft Windows PC or Android Smartphone ecosystems. Where they are all fundamentally the same, but OEMs vary on style, price, extra features, add-on services, etc.

The actual analogy to generalised computing from a user perspective would be the generalised concept of locomotion from a user perspective. Here we can have broad and narrow Luddites which can go beyond the base user concepts of getting from A to B, and have strong views about how flying is unnatural and that no one will ever get them on a plane, or public transport vs. personal conveyance, or 4 wheels vs. 2 wheels, dual wheel systems vs single wheel, or placement of the single wheel in a 3-wheel system: front-endian vs. rear-endian.

The AmigaOne is far removed from the original Amiga gem of personal computing, from which it claims descendancy. Back then, the differentiating and non-conventional Amiga hardware gave the Amiga an advantage. Today, the differentiating and non-conventional hardware of an AmigaOne, little that it has, is like a pair of cement boots; in an era where most users just want to get from A to B, quickly and affordably.

Last edited by agami on 19-Nov-2022 at 03:11 AM.

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 14:10:16
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Who's got issues with spelling now? That would be silicone!

Anyway, the World Cup is nearly here so I guess it's topical!

Check out this actual Team Boing Ball player!


Ana Maria Markovic
23 year old forward

She said: “Thanks to Cristiano, I am a footballer. He has always been my inspiration. That’s why I’ve always wanted to wear number 7.”
I guess she is Cristiano's Amiga? He needs all the friends he can get following that outburst against Manchester United!

Last edited by BigD on 21-Nov-2022 at 09:29 AM.
Last edited by BigD on 19-Nov-2022 at 02:12 PM.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 14:17:49
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

BigD wrote:


Ana Maria Markovic
23 year old forward

She said: “Thanks to Cristiano, I am a footballer. He has always been my inspiration. That’s why I’ve always wanted to wear number 7.”
I guess she is Cristiano's Amiga? He needs all the friends he can get following that outburst against Manchester United!





I rest my case(s).


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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 19-Nov-2022 17:37:05
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Well if CPUs and hardware are irrelevant what do you want to talk about? Why not support team Boing Ball at the World Cup?


Ana Maria Marković will be cheering for the men's team


World Cup Kit modelled by captain Luka Modrić! The Boing Ball chequered areas are missing a bit like the sense of community on this forum!


If man buns are more your thing Violent Ken then support Wales!

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 20-Nov-2022 0:05:05
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

This is a man who can't stop making crass spelling mistakes, even while accusing others of the same (and friend BigD, you know very, very well that mine was a mere play on words)

Quote:
Whose got issues with spelling now? That would be silicone!






This is a (married, with kids) man who can't stop obsessing over "babes".
On a retrocomputing forum.






This is a man whom, on a retrocomputing forum, will go on countless religious tirades.

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Nimrod

I'll keep this brief as what you seem to be describing is the effects of the corruption of the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church both of which deviated considerably from the teachings of the Bible and the Early Church.

The Biblical basis of our laws stems from the Magna Carta and continues to this day with the Queen being defender of the faith i.e. Christianty. Daily prayers (Christian) are mandatory in CofE schools and many councils. Our method of law and the many statutes that it is built on come from the Bible. Selflessness and sacrifice is central to what we view as honourable in our culture primarily due to Jesus' example. In many cultures survival of the fittest, saving face and dog eat dog societal norms are far more prevelant.

In regards to Numbers 5:11-31 your understanding of the passage is incorrect and based on a mistranslation contained within the NIV version of the Bible. It is the only version to translate Hebrew for 'to rot', or 'waste away', נֹפֶ֥לֶת (nō·p̄e·leṯ) as miscarriage. It is translated elsewhere in the NIV as 'to fall down' indicating scholary weakness in this version. Compare the versions below:

English Standard Version
May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away.

King James Bible
And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot:

None of 18 other translations use miscarriage as the translation for נֹפֶ֥לֶת (nō·p̄e·leṯ) in this passage.

In general, I'm sorry you're unable to see Jesus' rebukes against sadducees and pharisees as a fact that a living faith in Jesus is incompatible with man-made 'religion'.




BigD,
just how horrible of a human being are you?





/MEGA!

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QBit 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 20-Nov-2022 22:57:11
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 247
From: Unknown

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Jesus the Lord, our Saviour gave us the woman to look at and enjoy! *lol*

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 20-Nov-2022 23:34:55
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Friend Qbit,
among people of moral decency,

the formula below:

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀𝕏 𝕘𝕒𝕧𝕖 𝕦𝕤 A 𝕎𝕆𝕄𝔸ℕ


designates a pimp, do you realize it?

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 9:31:58
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

Who has = who's

Spelling corrected = Violent Ken aneurysm averted!

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 9:33:42
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@MEGA_RJ_MICAL

He is a relational God who understands that it is not good for us to be alone!

Maybe foster some community spirit and you too will never be alone!

Last edited by BigD on 21-Nov-2022 at 09:33 AM.

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amigang 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 11:04:01
#52 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Cheshire, England

Quote:
It made the hardware irrelevant. The age of hardware as a differentiator died in the late 1990s. Why? Because of the combined efforts of the whole computing world. Because it was the holy grail of computing for decades. Yes there was a time when a game looked and ran in wildly different ways, on the Commodore 64, an Amiga with EGA, an amiga with AGA, a PC with EGA, with CGA, with a Soundblaster, with ADLib, on the SNES. A billion custom audio and video chips and graphic modes and hardware quirks. And there was a charm to this, I WILL NOT DENY IT. But for the developers, for the industry as a whole? AGONY. Today, you barely have to care about the hardware underpinning your device. A device will be faster or slower than another, but they all have 95% of the same capabilities.


I think in a one way your right and wrong, yes in the main stream computer world, custom hardware is on the decrease, hell even console, famous for there custom hardware is basically now just a slight modify PC.

However there a reason why Pi became popular, it was a small, low powered, completely open hardware that allowed many different uses and projects to happen.
It was a custom hardware layout not following any industry standard at the time, now there are many copy cats designed to be the same size and have simular out put locations. This is to me is kinda where custom computing gone. Take an idea not offered by the main stream and it less about the custom chips, but more the purpose.

FPGA are basically the new custom chips, there used for many purposes, just in the Amiga world we have Vampire v4, Mister, and many project featuring a custom FPGA chip. ( https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-common-uses-for-FPGA-today )

Even Apple uses for there Afterburner, a card designed just for video effects industry
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MW682ZM/A/apple-afterburner-card

Then there been many custom graphics cards design just for work station, or bitcoin mining.

Then if your getting into the research industry, military sector, self driving cars, manufacturing or the sever world there is loads of custom hardware being developed for it single purpose.

So it may not be main stream (I suppose Apple is the only kinda main stream custom hardware manufacturer left) but it still go on and it still can provide an advantage to have custom hardware, apple is proving this with how good there CPU perform and battery life of laptops, yes some of its down to the ARM chipset, but its also the work Apple done in customising that platfrom for there products.

However the Amiga world I feel is not big enough now to support custom hardware, we barely manage to support the main stream hardware. Xmos was unfortunately the test of this, and although it did generate a lot of interest and a lot of ideas for it, nothing really came of it. Thats no fault of the A-EON or the devs, I think where just too small of a market, unfortunately.

Last edited by amigang on 21-Nov-2022 at 02:43 PM.
Last edited by amigang on 21-Nov-2022 at 11:09 AM.
Last edited by amigang on 21-Nov-2022 at 11:05 AM.

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amigang 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 11:34:40
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Cheshire, England

@amigang

Quote:
However the Amiga world I feel is not big enough now to support custom hardware, we barely manage to support the main stream hardware. Xmos was unfortunately the test of this, and although it did generate a lot of interest I think and I heard a lot of ideas for it, nothing really come of it. Thats no fault of the A-EON or the devs, I think where just too small of a market, unfortunately.

After just saying that there is another type of custom hardware which I think is impressive, the PiStorm. Allowing you to plug a Pi to your classic Amiga and emulate 68k boards and access to RGB. giving you a very cheap expansion, I think this kinda of custom hardware is very clever and hopefully just the beginning.

Like I would like to see AmigaOs ported to Arm, and have a custom Pi like board made, that could run on its own, So a Arm chip with maybe have a very cheap low powered FPGA chip that emulates the AGA and original Amiga chipset so that emulation would be a lot better on it, have original DB9 Adapter ports on the board so I could plug in my old controllers, and maybe even have a adaptor for it that would allow you to put the motherboard into a classic Amiga, like the Pistorm, so old system could access the new system too. But keep the price of this system under £200.

thats what I would like to see, and I kinda feel that is custom hardware, it just not custom chipset etc.

So it something you can kinda have today, thanks to Pistorm, Vampire V4 / Mister or even a custom PC / Pi emulation build, but to have it all setup out the box in a nice custom Amiga case, I think it would sell very well.

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MEGA_RJ_MICAL 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 21-Nov-2022 12:31:33
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2019
Posts: 1200
From: AMIGAWORLD.NET WAS ORIGINALLY FOUNDED BY DAVID DOYLE

Quote:

I think in a one way your right and wrong, yes in the main stream computer world, custom hardware is on the decrease, hell even console, famous for there custom hardware is basically now just a slight modify PC.

However there a reason why Pi became popular, it was a small, low powered, completely open hardware that allowed many different uses and projects to happen.
It was a custom hardware layout not following any industry standard, now there are many copy cats designed to be the same size and have simular out put locations. but this is to me kinda where custom computing gone. Take an idea not offered by the main stream.

FPGA have taken off and used for many purposes, just in the Amiga world we have Vampire v4, Mister, and many project featuring a custom FPGA chip. ( https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-common-uses-for-FPGA-today )

Even Apple uses for there Afterburner, a card designed just for video effects industry
https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MW682ZM/A/apple-afterburner-card

However the Amiga world I feel is not big enough now to support custom hardware, we barely manage to support the main stream hardware. Xmos was unfortunately the test of this, and although it did generate a lot of interest I think and I heard a lot of ideas for it, nothing really come of it. Thats no fault of the A-EON or the devs, I think where just too small of a market, unfortunately.




Now, my friends,
I have witnessed something as majestic as the sun setting on the Himalaya:

an amigang's post that is coherently written,
makes a lot of sense
and proves me (partially) wrong.

My job here is done.


/m

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agami 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 7:21:09
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1156
From: Melbourne, Australia

@amigang

Most of you are still getting it wrong about custom computing hardware.

First of all, @MEGA_RJ_MICAL (RIP) was indeed talking about mainstream computing from a user perspective. So all the non-mainstream examples are pointless.

Second, Apple engineers might work diligently do design custom silicon and board designs for their products, but to the average Apple user, that custom hardware is still IRRELEVANT.

Third, and this is where those with a live Amiga spark in their proverbial hearts get it wrong, including the mighty Trevor son of Dickin:
Y'all are starting with the desire to have some esoteric computing hardware, as some old bragging rights atavism, and then somehow get AmigaOS 4 running on it, or maybe MorphOS, or perhaps AROS (in that order). In this regard the failure of XMOS XENA is absolutely A-EON's fault.

The reason Apple had the Afterburner card, and the reason the new CODEC silicon in the M1/M2 chips outperforms the Afterburner, is because they start with a user feature outcome, e.g. As a user I would like to encode 4k pro-res video at n frames per second. Then if they can't do it effectively with off-the-shelf hardware, they use custom hardware. But at the end of the day, most users do not buy a Mac Pro with Afterburner because the video accelerator is using an FPGA.

Even your Raspberry Pi example is not a good one, as again the vast majority of Pi users don't care about the hardware. They're not coding in AArch64 assembly. They care that it is cheap, low power, has an SDK, can run Linux, etc.

None of us should WANT to have AmigaOS ported to ARM, off-the-shelf or custom board, for the sake of that hardware.
We should want AmigaOS to have specific user features, and then the OS engineers can find the most suitable and cost effective hardware to implement those. If that turns out to be x86-64, then we shouldn't care. Just like most Apple users didn't care when Apple moved to x86.

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 12:02:54
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@agami

Quote:
Just like most Apple users didn't care when Apple moved to x86.


There WAS a group of Mac users that DID care and that was the much unnurtured Mac gamers! Just as Apple was intent on destroying OpenGL support on the Mac the x86-64 switch allowed Mac gamers to switch to PC gaming without buying new hardware. Elite Dangerous, Streets of Rage 4, Sonic Mania, Wind Jammers 2! All new games that Apple let get away because it thought casual iPad games on the Metal API were good enough!

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amigang 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 12:54:04
#57 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Cheshire, England

@agami
Quote:
Y'all are starting with the desire to have some esoteric computing hardware, as some old bragging rights atavism, and then somehow get AmigaOS 4 running on it, or maybe MorphOS, or perhaps AROS (in that order). In this regard the failure of XMOS XENA is absolutely A-EON's fault.


I kinda disagree, I remember a lot of Amiga games and ports where not done as good as they could be due to lack of development, not due to the underline hardware, was this Commodore fault or the Devs. Also when newer tech came like ECS, AGA, Extra RAM ect to Amiga hardware devs would still just work to the lowest market A500, to get the most sales. Was that Commodore fault?

It was even worst when Dev did phone in rerelease for the AmigaCD32 and still had it as just an A500 game, kinda hurting the image of the CD32 as if thats all it could do. Fault of Commodore or the Devs?

Xmos, A-EON did port over the software and even made a Xmos Developer Board
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5LLqe62_J8
So they tried, they provided the tools, which I think is always a good thing than not, someone might of done something crazy with it. Some of the stuff that Commodore devs put on original Amiga system they could of never dreamed some of the stuff the Hackers and modder do with it now. Pistorm as an example. So you never know.

Quote:
Even your Raspberry Pi example is not a good one, as again the vast majority of Pi users don't care about the hardware, They're not coding in AArch64 assembly. They care that it is cheap, low power, has an SDK, can run Linux, etc


Yes and No again, As there are many cheaper Chinese ARM boards you can buy and run linux OS again, the reason they pick Pi can be due to the level of extra support, the board layout fits a lot more hobby projects that have since come out etc.

Plus I dont think Amiga will ever really take over the mainstream market or be a mainstream computer, unless a billionaire gets involved, so maybe the hackers and modders market is a better market to go after away?

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 14:28:26
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@amigang

Quote:
Plus I dont think Amiga will ever really take over the mainstream market or be a mainstream computer, unless a billionaire gets involved, so maybe the hackers and modders market is a better market to go after away?


I showed an ex-Amiga owner THEA500 Mini at the weekend. He has recently got rid of all his Amiga Kit but was intrigued by a mini console version to get for his kids! Ease of use, HDMI, CD32-like joypads and the simple RGL carousel plus option to add more games easily seemed quite persuasive! The price point didn't seem to bother him either.

We don't need a billionaire just some adverts and an end to the court case!

Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2022 at 02:30 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2022 at 02:29 PM.

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amigang 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 17:06:24
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1905
From: Cheshire, England

@BigD

Yes don’t get me wrong, I feel with some better management and the court case being over the Amiga market could have more success.

The A500 mini is a solid product, but I’ve also seen what it could of been, with a pi400 + amikit xe, arguably a better and cheaper product, just missing the Amiga branded case and stlying.

But I was kind on about competing with mac, Pc world which lets face would require huge resources. You need products like Adobe etc to compete, and even then your not guaranteed success, linux barely gets a look in within computing world which is a shame.

That being said I agree we can definitely be bigger than what we are now and I think a modest goal of just double the current Amiga scene is very possible.

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BigD 
Re: CPUs and chipsets and registers and benchmarks and ... IRRELEVANT
Posted on 22-Nov-2022 19:38:48
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6620
From: UK

@amigang

Quote:
ou need products like Adobe etc to compete, and even then your not guaranteed success, linux barely gets a look in within computing world which is a shame.


The Amiga never had Adobe or Microsoft on board! The best that could have been done would have been for C= to have bought Apple when they had the chance and then having Microsoft invest in the Amiga as the only other platform left standing to avoid monopoly claims like they did with the Mac!

Photoshop worked fine on Shapeshifter so I don't know the history but probably Adobe saw that C= weren't seriously pushing the Amiga in publishing, photo processing or any areas other than video and that was more Newtek taking the initiative!

It is crazy that Basic was the first and last Microsoft product on C= machines!

The Amiga is only remembered for DPaint, games, Video Toaster/Lightwave, Sound Trackers and possibly Scala. So maybe a product that revived that functionality and pushed it forward could be released but in all honesty we won't see anything beyond THEA500 Mini and Amiga Forever once Trevor gets bored and Hyperion lose IHMO. Maybe the free developers that hack away at OS3.2 will be allowed to have that 'New Classic AmigaOS' fork as a hobby as long as it's open source under Cloanto but we've got it as good as we can realistically expect it to be right now!

Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2022 at 07:42 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2022 at 07:41 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 22-Nov-2022 at 07:40 PM.

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