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jPV 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 16:05:07
#361 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 823
From: .fi

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@jPV

how do you define "PPC level NG operating system"?

Maybe it was a bit hasty written, but I meant MorphOS and OS4, which are PPC native Amiga compatible operating systems. I don't want to throw more gasoline on flamewars, but in my personal opinion they are more polished and advanced products than OS3 or AROS. That's why I rather use PPC machines... I don't care about the underlaying CPU architecture, I just want to have an OS that pleases me personally. But in the current situation they are PPC tied, so that explains my choice of words :)

Last edited by jPV on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by jPV on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:09 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 16:12:00
#362 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
it is of course not possible to port such a program (mostly games) to a NG platform running natively

Actually, I did, for one demo, its lots of work.

I created a copper rendering routine.

I ported the Scoopex tutorial, granted it was tiny.

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/scene/scoopex_demo_sky.lha

And I did convert the music disk from assembler to C, I used macros when rewrote it.

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/music/analog-cheap-disk.lha
https://github.com/khval/Amiga-Demo-in-68000-ASM-Cheap-Disk

I probably have done it using 680x0 assembler, but I just better at writing C/C++, I think easier for me to debug, better crash reports, perhaps some who, lots experience with 680x0 will choices differently.

there other things has been updated.
Opus5 was updated to work AmigaOS4.1
PPaint was updated to work.
Several games has gotten small bug fixes and patches.

Lots of MSDOS PC games has been ported to Amiga,
and some Amiga games has ported to PC.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:36 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:19 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:18 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 16:49:16
#363 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@jPV

OS3 is of course in its basic form very simple and offers not many stuff preinstalled but what exactly is AROS? AROS is name of the underlying OS and not says much about the user environment.

At least on 68k (UAE) you have some shortcomings that you cannot overcome fully (no modern browser, problems with HD videos including sound, 3D only by software) but you can have a environment that is very polished. I would like to see a example what you mean? Any videos?

On X86 you have not that limitations when using f.e. Icaros desktop, of course you cannot run 68k binaries, at least not without UAE

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:19 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:06 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:05 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 16:52:16
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

I think you cannot mix games and applications here. Applications were mostly written in high level languages like C and only included asm parts for time critical tasks. To port it, you still need a lot of work but it is possible. Games were propably in most cases written in asm. To port them you basically have to rewrite everything. You can do f.e. copper tricks that are complicated to do without a copper.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 04:53 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 17:26:35
#365 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
To port them you basically have to rewrite everything


Not if your good with 680x0 assembler, the JIT compiler will take care of it, Iím just not wizard with 680x0, so my choice is C/C++, and I think thatís a better choice, but as I say, someone else might like to write in 680x0 and that will work too.

So game that is not written for a OS, has its custom floppy routine, custom keyboard routines, custom music routines and so on, perhaps also custom memory management, now its highly likely even hardware banging games will use exec library, for few thigs, like memory allocation.

Graphics that basically rendered, using cooper.
so you some sprites, some bobs, some palette lists, etc..

the graphic rendering best replace, but then you have game logic, like collision, etc.. it can be using hardware features or can be using software.

Ideal you need to replace all IO code, and you probably should change graphic to 8bit chunky.

Perhaps your look at replacing 20%/40% of the code, 80%/60% thatís game logic, and that can stay.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:41 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 17:43:17
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@OlafS25

The real problem is most games are not open source, this why most games we see are remakes.
Iím amazed by some remakes, for example Heroes of Might Magic II engine is really compatible and amazing.
UFO enemy unknown remake is also pretty nice.
as well as StarCraft to engine, and red alert remake.
there is also a WarCraft open-source engine.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 05:44 PM.

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 17:52:02
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3175
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@jPV

Quote:

jPV wrote:
@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@jPV

how do you define "PPC level NG operating system"?

Maybe it was a bit hasty written, but I meant MorphOS and OS4, which are PPC native Amiga compatible operating systems. I don't want to throw more gasoline on flamewars, but in my personal opinion they are more polished and advanced products than OS3 or AROS. That's why I rather use PPC machines... I don't care about the underlaying CPU architecture, I just want to have an OS that pleases me personally. But in the current situation they are PPC tied, so that explains my choice of words :)

How do you define an OS that has HAL and can run on x86, PPC, ARM, 68K?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 18:22:39
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@pixie

As far as I know they all have HAL. MorphOS supports lots different hardware, and so does AmigaOS4. To me it looks like you think you found a straw, and you make argument, without actually knowing what strengths and weaknesses are.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 06:25 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 06:25 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 18:59:06
#369 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

MorphOS has that too and I assume AmigaOS too. Any halfway modern system needs abstraction layers and portable kernels to support different hardware.

@jpv

I only asked why you think AROS is less polished and on what base you defined that? On which hardware platform and distribution? And what you think misses to be more polished?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 29-Jul-2023 at 07:00 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 19:43:20
#370 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Hammer

pistorm change your amiga into keyboard and mouse interface for pi with emulator.
It is stupid because amiga keyboard and mouse was copied from pc 40 years ago.
Use winuae it is cheaper and better.

Emu68 does NOT emulate C= Amiga chipset.

Emu68's Broadcom VideoCore P96 driver is Amiga 68K P96 driver without WinUAE's P96 driver bridge into the host OS's graphics sub-system.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jul-2023 at 08:18 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 20:17:32
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

directly banging hardware was a necessity in the past and many developers today like it because they can squeeze the last percent from the hardware. It is a kind of different philosophy. Those devs want to do wonders on a defined limited hardware and do tricks instead of just expecting a more powerful graphic card or cpu. Naming it "bad code" is a harsh phrase, I would say different idea.

it is of course not possible to port such a program (mostly games) to a NG platform running natively


The PC world has partly reversed the OpenGL paradigm with low-level Vulkan (evolved from AMD/EA DICE's Mantle API) and AMD-influenced Direct3D 12 API (via Xbox Direct3D 12.X).

Like Commodore-Amiga's and 3DO's close partnership with Electronic Arts, Mantle API was co-designed with EA DICE and AMD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7RSszCPt68
AMD's Shader Intrinsic Functions which is PC's return to close to "hit-the-metal" programming access to specific hardware. This is extracting maximum graphics performance within the memory-protected environment.

NVIDIA's GPU Intrinsics example https://developer.nvidia.com/unlocking-gpu-intrinsics-hlsl

OpenGL was a reasonable abstraction layer with many GPU vendors during the late 1990s, but there are only three GPU vendors remaining in the PC in modern times i.e. Intel, AMD, and NVIDIA.

This is reversing the influence of SGI's OpenGL while there's increased influence from Sony's PlayStation.

Apple has introduced the Metal API in response to Vulkan and DirectX12.

Both Xbox DirectX12.X and PS4/PS5 game consoles allow specific GCN/RDNA code paths.
RDNA's GCN Wave64 instruction set legacy support is a boat anchor.

Half of RDNA 3's CU stream processors support GCN Wave64 instruction set legacy.

Xbox DirectX12.X GPU has semi-custom micro-coding engine hardware with DirectX12.X as the target front end.

There's effectively a single shader-capable GpGPU family for the Amiga NG platform unless Intel ARC opens as an option, but it doesn't have legacy 16-bit VBIOS support. Intel ARC has UEFI-compatible firmware instead i.e. GOP (Graphics Output Protocol). Many new motherboard UEFI settings are in graphics presentation mode instead of text mode.

Unofficial UEFI support is under development for POWERPC64 by implementing TianoCore on top of OPAL (OpenPOWER abstraction layer).

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jul-2023 at 08:23 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 20:35:13
#372 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@pixie

As far as I know they all have HAL. MorphOS supports lots different hardware, and so does AmigaOS4. To me it looks like you think you found a straw, and you make argument, without actually knowing what strengths and weaknesses are.

Windows 11 X64 only supports the ACPI HAL target. X86 PC world has selected UEFI+ACPI as a single target.

ARM is focusing on "ARM SystemReady" with UEFI+ACPI as a single target. ARM SystemReady's UEFI + ACPI is required on ARM if you want to boot Windows 11 or RHEL/CentOS.

PowerPC world is still fighting over UBoot, Open Firmware, and IBM's OPAL.

Windows 10 ARM with multiple ARM-based platform targets is wasteful and LOL...

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jul-2023 at 08:36 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 20:35:46
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
Unofficial UEFI support is under development for POWERPC64 by implementing TianoCore on top of OPAL (OpenPOWER abstraction layer).


We have x86 emulator, we might as well put UEFI on top of it, Iím thinking, instead of using UBOOT and other strange firmware. Instead of putting the x86 emulator inside of uboot.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:28:02
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
he PC world has partly reversed the OpenGL paradigm with low-level Vulkan (evolved from AMD/EA DICE's Mantle API) and AMD-influenced Direct3D 12 API (via Xbox Direct3D 12.X).

Like Commodore-Amiga's and 3DO's close partnership with Electronic Arts, Mantle API was co-designed with EA DICE and AMD.


I agree, lots of 2D games have moved to 3D on PC, and some of the games look brilliant.

Not so many Classic Amiga systems with 3D support, the advantage is of course, you donít need fast CPU, if GPU doing all gfx work.

And also not sure can retch most modern APIís, probably stuck bit older Warp3D / MiniGL api, they probably do not provide JMP table for latest Nova APIís. but you can work around it, making your own wrapper libraries, or beg for it.

In that case it best to have some type preference options, you set, before starting game, or some auto detection code, that checks what libraries that are available.

You probably want keep the AGA/OCS render for legacy support/fallback.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 09:30 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 09:28 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:30:09
#375 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@OlafS25

Quote:
it is of course not possible to port such a program (mostly games) to a NG platform running natively

Actually, I did, for one demo, its lots of work.

I created a copper rendering routine.

I ported the Scoopex tutorial, granted it was tiny.

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/scene/scoopex_demo_sky.lha

And I did convert the music disk from assembler to C, I used macros when rewrote it.

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=demo/music/analog-cheap-disk.lha
https://github.com/khval/Amiga-Demo-in-68000-ASM-Cheap-Disk

I probably have done it using 680x0 assembler, but I just better at writing C/C++, I think easier for me to debug, better crash reports, perhaps some who, lots experience with 680x0 will choices differently.

there other things has been updated.
Opus5 was updated to work AmigaOS4.1
PPaint was updated to work.
Several games has gotten small bug fixes and patches.

Lots of MSDOS PC games has been ported to Amiga,
and some Amiga games has ported to PC.

If MS-DOS-ported games dominate the neo-AmigaOS gaming scene, it turns the neo-AmigaOS into a PC retro with a different UI middleware infrastructure and it has identity issues.

The same MS-DOS ported games are also running on modern Windows 10/11-based (UEFI-ACPI) PCs. SW Dark Forces with The Force Engine port runs more than 5000 fps at 4K on RTX 4080's OpenGL.

This is why Sony made sure that the PlayStation platform has its Sony games and avoids Xbox's "yet another PC" identity issues. PlayStation 5 has reached 40 million units in install base.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:32:56
#376 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@Hammer

You can emulate PS1/PS2/PS3 now on PC, not perfect but most games are playable, modern PS4 use the same CPUís as modern gaming PCís, so should be easier to emulate.

https://www.lifewire.com/best-playstation-emulators-pc-4176442

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 09:34 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:38:11
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
Unofficial UEFI support is under development for POWERPC64 by implementing TianoCore on top of OPAL (OpenPOWER abstraction layer).


We have x86 emulator, we might as well put UEFI on top of it, Iím thinking, instead of using UBOOT and other strange firmware. Instead of putting the x86 emulator inside of uboot.


https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-ryzen-interview-ai-zen-4-strategy/4.html
From AMD's Mark Papermaster.

Intel's X86-S Proposal
Question: Any thoughts on Intel's X86-S proposal that focuses on 64-bit and gets rid of a lot of legacy capability, so cores can be simplified and use less silicon area at the same time?

Mark Papermaster: We have absolutely been looking at that. We've been evaluating similar proposals for a long, long time. It is both incredibly beneficial to make that break, also very, very complicated. I think it is a non-trivial exercise to strip out legacy compatibility in a core architecture as well as time that in a way so that it matches up perfectly with an OS transition that also eliminates a lot of these legacy compatibilities. I would say "very interesting," something that really, we would have to look at as an industry and make that move in concert. We find Intel's proposal pretty intriguing as we look at that.


----

My speculation, AM5 would be the last mainstream platform to support "16-bit VBIOS" legacy, hence it's 2025 to 2026 for the end 16bit X86 legacy. I don't expect AM6 to support 16bit X86 legacy.





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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:46:56
#378 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

You can emulate PS1/PS2/PS3 now on PC, not perfect but most games are playable, modern PS4 use the same CPUís as modern gaming PCís, so should be easier to emulate.

https://www.lifewire.com/best-playstation-emulators-pc-4176442

There's very little point with PS3 emulators when Sony is porting their PS3 games into the PC platform.

Sony is aware of the PS3 emulator on the PC and has mitigated this unmanaged platform issue.
Sony's "The Last of Us" was released for PS3 and PS4, and it was made available as a remake i.e. "The Last of Us Part 1" on both PC and PS5.

Sony's PC ports follow the PS3 emulator's Sony game list.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 21:49:58
#379 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12846
From: Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
If MS-DOS-ported games dominate the neo-AmigaOS gaming scene, it turns the neo-AmigaOS into a PC retro with a different UI middleware infrastructure and it has identity issues.


PC = Personal Computer or Home Computer
is the same thing, computer with a CPU, some RAM, some storage, a GFX card.
when we talk about PC, unlike Mac, we normally talk about a motherboard with a x86 or AMD.
680x0 and PowerPC has most often referred to as Home Computers or Apples, or the workstations.

Software is adaptable, games has ported to lots of different system as long as I can remember, you can see a C64, Atari, Amiga version of same game, and sometimes you a PC, Apple version of a game. There games run on Linux. As long as Open source its portable. In 80ís games ports looked different on different platforms because chipsets max colors, and sound support was different, and CPU speed was often huge differences.

lotís techniques for port games used, some worst game ports use emulator, part of the game is emulated or even sometimes you find games are bundled with a emulator,
gog.com has typical DOSBox bundled, you simply click on startup script.

DOSBox work wherry nicely on AmigaONE systems. It even comes with a nice JIT compiler, so runs pretty fast.

So if you can unpack the game, you can copy it over, startup script wonít work. we donít have .bat support , so not a MSDOS PC



Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 10:01 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 29-Jul-2023 at 09:52 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 29-Jul-2023 22:04:58
#380 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5425
From: Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
he PC world has partly reversed the OpenGL paradigm with low-level Vulkan (evolved from AMD/EA DICE's Mantle API) and AMD-influenced Direct3D 12 API (via Xbox Direct3D 12.X).

Like Commodore-Amiga's and 3DO's close partnership with Electronic Arts, Mantle API was co-designed with EA DICE and AMD.


I agree, lots of 2D games have moved to 3D on PC, and some of the games look brilliant.

Not so many Classic Amiga systems with 3D support, the advantage is of course, you donít need fast CPU, if GPU doing all gfx work.

And also not sure can retch most modern APIís, probably stuck bit older Warp3D / MiniGL api, they probably do not provide JMP table for latest Nova APIís. but you can work around it, making your own wrapper libraries, or beg for it.

In that case it best to have some type preference options, you set, before starting game, or some auto detection code, that checks what libraries that are available.

You probably want keep the AGA/OCS render for legacy support/fallback.

3D acceleration doesn't remove the need for a fast CPU when dot 3D processing is done by the CPU.

For real-time raytracing, CPU load has increased with BVH sorting.

AMD's Jaguar CPU is optimized for dot 3D processing.

3D Particle Movement v2.1 (AVX when available) benchmark scores
AMD A9-9820, Jaguar 8C/8T @ 2.35 GHz Base (Xbox One X) = 590
(7 CPU cores are available for userland games)

AMD K10 Phenom II X6 1090T (6C/6T, 125W) @ 3.2Ghz Base, 3.6Ghz Turbo = 567
K10 only has 128-bit wide SSE units with L1 data cache interface allowing for two 128-bit loads per cycle.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Jul-2023 at 10:09 PM.

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