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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 12:09:24
#421 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@klx300r

that has to do with lack of new informations to discuss about propably

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 12:10:33
#422 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

AmigaOS4 has memory protection?

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 12:43:49
#423 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3161
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@OlafS25

Quote:
you have all in aros already what you ask for like USB support, RTG, network stack. It is a pure retro system for me.

Do you have any idea why RTG is so sluggish in AROS? Is it wanderer? If I have my system running bellow 040 speeds I can see how the system renders it's windows, I mean from an educational POV is quite cool, but from a user POV not so much!

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 12:47:57
#424 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@pixie

below 040? Where are you running it?

And yes Wanderer is slow because it not uses blitter like workbench does. It is painted pixel by pixel and the algorithm were not very optimized too. That is not visible on modern X86 hardware of course but very visible on much slower hardware. The Apollo team did optimizations there and use Magellan as desktop. I use Magellan too.

The last time when it was tested was with a older version and good useable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q40DrZ3iziE&t=70s

current version is changed so has to be seen how it will look like. But desktop was the same so I am optimistic

Last edited by OlafS25 on 08-Aug-2023 at 12:52 PM.

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 13:48:43
#425 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3161
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@OlafS25

You can make WinUAE speed quite low if you want.
You say that wanderer is slow because it doesn't use the blitter, but I was in the impression neither RTG. My idea was that using the RTG accelerated driver there would be no issue regarding speed, even at a low speed that's why I found it odd that kind of performance.
You say you use Magellan, but does it somehow uses RTG differently of wanderer that makes it faster?

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 13:51:07
#426 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@pixie

magellan uses its own routines to paint windows. So yes I think it is faster. You see the speed on the youtube video. I only care about WinUAE and V4. Slower hardware is out of interest to me.

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pixie 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 15:03:39
#427 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3161
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@OlafS25

Quote:
magellan uses its own routines to paint windows. So yes I think it is faster. You see the speed on the youtube video. I only care about WinUAE and V4. Slower hardware is out of interest to me.

To each each own, but it's not that I care with slower processors, as I've told you I use WinUAE, what I care is to reason why an OS that is supposed to be a match for match for Workbench/AmigaOS behaves so differently. Obviously if I have a 1Ghz 68k CPU it will won't notice, but for me AmigaOS was always about speed/responsiveness, not CPU speed...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 16:49:24
#428 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@OlafS25

Yes, it has completely different memory system then OS3.x, on AmigaONE hardware / AmigaOS4.1.
Fast memory is actually a thing of the past, we only have shared memory and private memory and virtual memory , also we have a fully working MMU on the PowerPC chips, how amazing is that?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 04:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 04:50 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 18:49:55
#429 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

amd how do 68k software work in it?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 20:35:57
#430 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@OlafS25

There is no simple answer to it, emulation support is excessive and has grown into difference branches / methods of emulation and tools.

1. Native, Petunia or the Integrated interpreter takes care of it.
1.1 Extremely fast, well integrated, but likely to fail.
1.2. Little slower, will integrate but little less likely to fail.

Hardware banging is pretty common, for timing or for sound, even when a program is otherwise system friendly, bug that was prior not found is often detected, is also often triggered by debugger (Grim Ripper). so often software is not tested with a mugwall software on AmigaOS3.x, during development or testing.

Compatibility can be improved by MMU handlers, that emulates CHIPSET, like NallePuh does, but because a handler/wrapper needs a multitasking in background, some things can be difficult to emulate. But more can be done on this, Iím sure.

In my humble option software that busy loop, and try pull bit values, instead of waiting from system events should be rewritten, its poor coding, waste CPU resources and hug resources.

Some software check chip revisions, and or probe the hardware unnecessary, thatís also common.

Bad startup / shutdown code is a plage in Amiga software in general, if canít open a library it will crash, insted of exit nicely.

680x0 software often only support one screen mode, and canít be promoted to RTG, even when its system friendly screen. But even worse sometime screen is not system friendly screen it setup using copper list.

2. Contribution tool RunInUAE
2.1 when RunInUAE runs in background Hunk loader is patched.
programs that are detected as hunk or with file extentions is then forced into EUAE instead.

3. With tools and scripts, PUAE, WhdLoad-to-EUAE.
3.1 file has project icon, have program or script that generates a startup script for 680x0, that will encapsulate, 680x0 program or tool.

3. By starting EUAE first.

4. Other emulators, like ReWarp project and WarpOSEmu project.
WarpOSEmu (JŲrg Strohmayer) was distributed with AmigaOS4, but it latter stopped working on sam440 and other PowerPC chips, not sure if was due copy protection code, or if workarounds where needed for embedded CPUís, ReWarp project then took over, to fill in the void, ReWarp is more mature WarpOS emulator, if not mistaken two components to it, also Warp3D Wrapper as well, also required for 3D games. support for WarpOS does not come preinstalled anymore. But can be downloaded and installed easily.

There are different versions of EUAE, and EUAE can be configured in different ways, you can improve speed by lowering sound quality or graphic quality or disabling features in UAE, on low end system, while you at everything enabled on higher end systems, EUAE is generally pretty good, perhaps a bit outdated, there also PUAE and others. EUAE project does not have a developer who works full time on or dedicated to making the best, perhaps it lags behind WinUAE in many areas.

The version we have of EUAE is adapted for AmigaOS.1 and is not a simple port of standard SDL version, this is because AmigaOS4.1 is different to Windows and Linux, and requires its own implementation and optimizations.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 09:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 09:11 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 09:04 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 09:01 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Aug-2023 at 08:48 PM.

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ktadd 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 8-Aug-2023 23:56:44
#431 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jul-2003
Posts: 594
From: California, USA

@OlafS25

Quote:
what you reacted to I wriote "retro platform". So you think AmigaOS is retro?

Lets see....I bought my uA1 in 2004 and the AmigaOne was available before that. So, 20 plus years ago....I'd call that retro.

It's retro where we are still getting new hardware, just like the 68k world. Let's all have fun!

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 6:14:53
#432 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

herr szonwejs you have not ppc hardware
so you cannot test it
everything what you wrote about ppc hardware is pure bullshit

I have it and qemu on my i7 is slower than my Amiga 500 1 GHz (Sam460)

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 6:16:21
#433 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

@pixie

for pc I have Windows
want people switch to pc provide something at least as good as XP

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 6:18:00
#434 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

@pixie

MUI is standard on Amiga
without it aros on x86 or arm is useless

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 6:26:41
#435 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

It was explained many times.
Amiga Os 4 has binary compatibility and integration with old 68k Amiga software.
So it cannot have real memory protection.
First thing that should be one after breaking binary compatibilty
and integration should be adding memory protection.
switch to x86 or arm already breaks binary compatibility and integration
so from start aros shold have memory protection.
It should be done 28 years ago.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 6:34:08
#436 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 787
From: Unknown

I want something different from pc.
Amiga 1222 will be nice toy.
fast and compatible. I will buy one.



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OlafS25 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 8:29:35
#437 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6368
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

bullshit ppcbullshit1... you CAN compare benchmarks even if you not own another hardware. That is WHY benchmarks are created so do not talk all the time bullshit if you have no knowledge

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BigD 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 11:12:10
#438 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7329
From: UK

@ppcamiga1

Enjoy worshiping your PPC shrine and enjoy the A1222+ but accept that you are one of the worst proponents of AmigaNG EVER! I find my interest waning after every post that you make! It's about the software stupid!

Using an AmigaOne to run 68k software is one of the least cost effective tasks you could ever undertake compared to the alternatives! Plus considering the AmigaOne machines are themselves 'retro' in the tech they're providing, the nostalgia factor is quite important! There is very little nostalgia for Teron AmigaOne boards as they were flakey and prone not to even boot after a battery failure! The PiStorm/Apollo/MiSTer/MiniMig/UnAmiga/THEA500 Mini/x86 & Arm 68k emulation ALL provide better bang for buck concentrated nostalgia/great classic Amiga experience than the AmigaOne machines ever will! I can play Wipeout 2097 on THEA500 Mini and Fantastic Dreams is fast enough on the PiStorm not to warrant Candy Factory or other PPC equivalent! I'm not interested in Spencer, I've played Tower57 and Wings Remastered on my Mac for many years, use PageStream 2, 3 and 4 and DrawStudio to this day on 68k and can't see how the A1222+ could be used as a daily driver replacing my Mac to be honest!

Nothing you have said will encourage new users to the NG platform. You simply justify you own purchase decisions over and over for no apparent reason! Buy what makes you happy by all means but from our perspective you are damaging the AmigaOne cause with every opinionated post that you make! Sad but true IMHO!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Aug-2023 at 11:32 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 21:14:15
#439 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12833
From: Norway

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
It was explained many times.
Amiga Os 4 has binary compatibility and integration with old 68k Amiga software.
So it cannot have real memory protection.


You have memory protection, or you donít. there is nothing in between.

Perhaps what youíre talking about is kernel space and user space,
resource tracking and run levels.

You can keep track of dirty programs and games, for example programs that alloc memory and manual initialize memory using InitRastPort. Or use non favorable APIíS. can be marked dirty theoretically.

If AmigaOS4.1 did that and kept track of resource it can get close terminating some task/processes in a system friendly way, technically its just matter freeing allocated resources in reverse order at they were allocated, however no guaranty that resources are not corrupted by task that allocated the resources. If resources are corrupted, then that can cause additional crashes. Adding setters and getters and checks sums can medicate that, that can add some overhead, but can be worth it, on some structs. Adding a resource manager, can allow task to allocated resources outside of tasks memory space. Reducing the unprotected areas even more.

All this can be done without breaking backwards compatibility. It just means that dirty programs canít be terminated, while nondirty programs can theoretically be.

Another approach can be done, can be using virtual box approach, where different kernels running in different VMís, I think this approach is harder, because you canít do it incrementally.

But letís not kid ourselves this a hobby, we are not writing server software.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Aug-2023 at 09:22 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-Aug-2023 at 09:21 PM.

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matthey 
Re: A1222 production now underway!
Posted on 9-Aug-2023 21:41:05
#440 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2057
From: Kansas

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

Well, if you like coding on a big-endian CPUís, AmigaONE are perfect, its good system from bringing your old 680x0 code/programs into a more modern system friendly system. I really donít think AGA has been the way to go. Perhaps modernizing on maxed out classic system can be first step. Once you have done that you can take advantage of new graphic cards, sound cards, and make your games/programs even better. Love to see some of old 2D games modernized for a 3d engine.


The A1222 was supposed to be low end AmigaOne PPC hardware but look at how much a system will cost.

Raspberry Pi Zero 2 W ($15)
vs
A1222 ($1500?)

The A1222 may be 100 times the cost of a RPi Zero 2 W which has better performance, more cores, real FPUs and SIMD units and a 3D GPU. The difference is more than mass production but also integration. Yes, the chip process is likely better but a modular desktop system can't compete with an integrated chipset like the Amiga used (gfx, sfx, I/O) and which is now provided on a single chip SoC. At least on low end computers, integration won. Each component of an A1222 like a gfx card and power supply cost more than a RPi Zero 2 W SBC costs. Even a more complete and upgraded RPi 400 only costs $70 and makes the A1222 look like a joke. Trevor thinks the Amiga is a modular "desktop" box that throws away Amiga compatibility. The PPC Efika was down around $100 when there was less competition and didn't have enough sales to survive but how well could a 68060+AGA system with similar performance have sold knowing how well THEA500 Mini has sold despite cheap emulation and being overpriced? Is the problem that the lost Amiga compatibility doomed PPC Amigas without enough software and today emulation on non-PPC Amiga hardware is better performance, compatibility and price than PPC hardware?

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

The memory protection in AmigaOS4, help developers and users debug software, and often stops a program bringing down the system. It works, itís not perfect.


Protecting PPC code is barely "memory protection". Data is much higher of a percentage of used memory than code even on PPC where it is 50% larger than 68k code. Protecting the zero page does most of the protection and ThoR's MMU tools for the 68k do that too.

ktadd Quote:

Lets see....I bought my uA1 in 2004 and the AmigaOne was available before that. So, 20 plus years ago....I'd call that retro.

It's retro where we are still getting new hardware, just like the 68k world. Let's all have fun!


Trevor's A1222 embarrassment is fun for a few hundred semi-Amiga users? Michele Battilana was responsible for hundreds of thousands of semi-Amiga users with THEA500 Mini even though it would have been better with better Amiga hardware and there can be an Amiga Maxi that is more of a functional Amiga. It reminds me of Samuel 18:3 where the women sang that ďSaul has killed his thousands, and David his ten thousands.Ē but Trevor's A1222 numbers will be far more embarrassing than this yet he continues. He can't read the writing on the wall which is another biblical reference. Well, I don't want to babel on wasting my time here amongst Trevor's remaining loyal followers. It's too bad camps were not joined to provide the Amiga the legacy it should have had but that should have happened years ago.

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