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kolla
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 24-Sep-2024 21:41:17
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 3222
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| Considering what hardware this "maxi" will be, anyone who feel the need for numpad can just plug a numpad keyboard into a USB port. _________________ B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC |
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BigD
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 24-Sep-2024 22:03:20
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7424
From: UK | | |
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| @kolla
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kolla wrote: Considering what hardware this "maxi" will be, anyone who feel the need for numpad can just plug a numpad keyboard into a USB port. |
Yes, and 95% of users won't need it!_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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agami
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 25-Sep-2024 0:40:46
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Super Member |
Joined: 30-Jun-2008 Posts: 1824
From: Melbourne, Australia | | |
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| @pixie
I too am very fond of the A1200 form-factor. It will always hold a special place among my cherished computing memories.
That said, I have to agree with @BigD here, producing a full or near full sized A1200 replica enclosure does not make logistical sense. The A1200 is not a small keyboard computer. I've ridden smaller skateboards. The full size will increase the shipping and handling costs, which will impact all purchasers. Yet the benefit of it being an A1200 form-factor is a draw card for a small percentage of that addressable market.
Shrinking a full keyboard to the size of an A600 case would reduce the typing comfort. While I'm fond of the A1200 form-factor and layout, I do not hate the the A600 form-factor and layout, because it is essentially a truncated A1200 form-factor.
I will very likely purchase whatever this RGL Maxi system will be, unless it's some abomination of a shrunken down A1200 using a keyboard with num-pad which are commonly found on laptops these days. Yuck.
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agami
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 25-Sep-2024 0:49:42
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Super Member |
Joined: 30-Jun-2008 Posts: 1824
From: Melbourne, Australia | | |
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| @BigD
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BigD wrote: @pixie
You have to be able to type on it. The A600 is cute. |
I agree
The A1200 form-factor is sleek, but the A600 form-factor is cute. Among all the Amiga computers, including the CDTV and CD32, the A600 has the highest "cute" factor. About as cute as the original caramel C64.
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pixie
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 25-Sep-2024 4:44:48
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Elite Member |
Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 3328
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal | | |
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| @agami Does it need to be bigger than this?
You already have smaller keys which are being used that are still ergonomic. A600 is still quite a chunky computer to today's standards you just have the benefit of having less keys... Using A600 as Amiga maxi feels odd, given it was the least beloved line made. _________________ Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home. The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga |
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BigD
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 25-Sep-2024 7:25:16
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7424
From: UK | | |
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| @pixie
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Using A600 as Amiga maxi feels odd, given it was the least beloved line made.
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As previously stated, it was the A600 given away as prizes on TV and pushed for Christmas 1992 not the A1200 as they didn't make enough. I would expect that the A600 got more advertising exposure than the A1200. We the Amigans love the A1200 but it wasn't marketed right, was not a million unit seller and does not fit the brief for this Maxi 'Console'!Last edited by BigD on 25-Sep-2024 at 07:25 AM.
_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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agami
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 26-Sep-2024 1:27:05
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Super Member |
Joined: 30-Jun-2008 Posts: 1824
From: Melbourne, Australia | | |
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| @pixie
Quote:
pixie wrote: @agami
Does it need to be bigger than this? [image of an Amiga 3000/4000 keyboard] |
No, it doesn't. But it also doesn't need to be that big. Numeric keys aren't used as much as the main key-set, hence the popularity of TKL and smaller keyboards. (I'm typing this in a Vissels LP-85). The other problem: narrowing and slimming down an A1200 enclosure to the size of an Amiga desktop keyboard is a decent level of bastardization. True, the A600 isn't all that small by today's standards, but RGL has to be asking themselves the key aesthetic question: would consumers prefer a non-bastardized A600 form-factor, or a bastardized A1200 form-factor?
Quote:
You already have smaller keys which are being used that are still ergonomic. A600 is still quite a chunky computer to today's standards you just have the benefit of having less keys... Using A600 as Amiga maxi feels odd, given it was the least beloved line made. |
You don't have to narrow the keys too much to make it crappy for typing. I threw out a Royal Kludge (strange brand name, I know) TKL mechanical keyboard with brown switches because they narrowed the keys to the point that I was constantly making errors.
My daily driver keyboard is a Keychron Q1 Pro with banana switches. A delightful typing experience. The Drevo on my Windows PC has narrower keys, but switching from the Keychron to the Drevo is not too bad. It's a quick adjustment. Going to the Royal Kludge, which physically doesn't look all that much smaller, it's a disaster.
And if the A600 was disliked, I think it had more to do with the overall SKU and value for money, not so much the form-factor. Because once the V2 Vampire card was available for the A600, it became very popular.
Last edited by agami on 26-Sep-2024 at 01:28 AM. Last edited by agami on 26-Sep-2024 at 01:27 AM.
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pixie
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 26-Sep-2024 4:57:59
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 3328
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal | | |
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OneTimer1
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 26-Sep-2024 21:25:22
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Super Member |
Joined: 3-Aug-2015 Posts: 1072
From: Unknown | | |
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| @pixie & @agami
Size is between A1200 and A600 and has a full number pad that was mandatory on some early OCS/ECS games.
The Amiga600 wasn't compatible enough a lot of OCS/ECS games where depended on undocumented AAOS1.3 features and the Amiga600 didn't had a replacement for the missing number pad. |
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BigD
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 27-Sep-2024 6:43:27
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7424
From: UK | | |
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| @OneTimer1
I never gelled with that keyboard. I think the squarer shape of the A600 has a lot to do with the perceived cuteness. A Tonka toy keyboard with an Arm inside could be the result of straying from a specific Amiga model's dimensions and form factor.
The A1000 keyboard was that size to fit in the keyboard garage of the A1000. I don't think it is that great a design in and of itself. The phone cord plug was particularly mystifying and although mechanical I guess I was used to springy Amiga keyboards. Last edited by BigD on 27-Sep-2024 at 08:50 AM. Last edited by BigD on 27-Sep-2024 at 08:48 AM.
_________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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pixie
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 27-Sep-2024 9:59:26
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 3328
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal | | |
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BigD
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 27-Sep-2024 10:57:00
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Elite Member |
Joined: 11-Aug-2005 Posts: 7424
From: UK | | |
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| @pixie
Yeah, like the Sunrace industrial keyboard I use on my CD32 with laptop style solution with a function key for numpad keys when needed! _________________ "Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art." John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios |
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pixie
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 28-Sep-2024 8:19:51
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003 Posts: 3328
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal | | |
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matthey
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 28-Sep-2024 15:17:14
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2007 Posts: 2342
From: Kansas | | |
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| BigD Quote:
The A1000 keyboard was that size to fit in the keyboard garage of the A1000. I don't think it is that great a design in and of itself. The phone cord plug was particularly mystifying and although mechanical I guess I was used to springy Amiga keyboards.
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The Amiga 1000 numeric keypad is much inferior to the later Amiga keypad. The numeric keypad is not just useful for games and productivity software but for programmers. The '(' and ')' keys are super valuable for C coding and spreadsheet equations/formulas which PC keyboards lack. A later style Amiga keyboard could easily be narrowed by 3cm/1" making it similar to low profile keyboards like popular Dell keyboards. Some other minor changes may be an improvement.
o remove border keyboard material o narrow DEL and HELP keys to normal size and place gap between o remove CTRL from left and add to bottom outside like PC keyboards o add F11 and F12 function keys o consider separate keypad "Num L" and "Scr L" toggle keys and LED indicators above keypad
I expect other people have other ideas and opinions as well.
pixie Quote:
Quality FPGA hardware is not comparable to crap emulation hardware. Serious retro fans know quality hardware which is why the Analogue Genesis/MegaDrive sold out at $189 USD and sells used for $600 to $700. It is a higher price than original Sega hardware but it has enhanced features like HDMI, SD slot and microUSB with many settings beyond the original hardware. The case is smaller than the original which is convenient even though it lacks nostalgia likely due to lack of licensing from Sega. Some retro fans demanding quality choose MiSTer universal FPGA hardware instead which has some advantages and disadvantages compared to the Analogue hardware but isn't cheap anymore either. The best Amiga analogue of the Analogue FPGA hardware may be the ACSA hardware providing enhancements including CPU and chipset which the Amiga more easily allows. High quality FPGA hardware like this could be significantly cost reduced with an ASIC 68k SoC although a small FPGA would be required for universal chipset simulation and other small (8-bit) CPU simulation. With an ASIC, the hardware becomes cheaper, better value and higher quality than ARM hardware using emulation but nobody wants to invest in cost reductions for this lucrative retro market. A CD32+ could be upgraded to 68060 (if it could be licensed) and AA+ chipset (if the core was near completion and found) giving a superior and ultimate upgrade to the CD32+ CBM planned but in a reduced form factor, with more modern I/O, cost reduced and not needing a keyboard but supporting Amiga keyboards just like the original CD32. It would be a plus if other 68k consoles and computers could be played as well (using optional CD-ROM or add-on cartridge slots). The 68k may not have the largest retro game library but it likely has the highest quality retro 2D game library. The late retro 2D games generally hold up better than early retro 3D games and the hardware is much cheaper to produce. A 3D GPU core that is better than RPi hardware GPUs is cheaper to add than the large and hot OoO CPU cores RPis are adding instead. Two more weeks in Amiga Neverland is more like two more lost Trevor/Ben Amiga decades though.
Last edited by matthey on 28-Sep-2024 at 03:22 PM.
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kolla
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 28-Sep-2024 15:39:39
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 3222
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| @matthey
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remove CTRL from left and add to bottom outside like PC keyboards |
GTFO!! Then you can just as well just use a PC keyboard already… an ordinary PC keyboard is exactly what you describe here.
Btw, cheap MiSTer clones have arrived already, so why don’t you just go and get one while you can this time?Last edited by kolla on 28-Sep-2024 at 03:42 PM. Last edited by kolla on 28-Sep-2024 at 03:41 PM.
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matthey
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 28-Sep-2024 17:48:28
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2007 Posts: 2342
From: Kansas | | |
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| kolla Quote:
GTFO!! Then you can just as well just use a PC keyboard already… an ordinary PC keyboard is exactly what you describe here.
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Several of my suggestions would move the Amiga keyboard toward a PC keyboard layout and interoperability for both software and users. New Amiga users need to acclimate from PC to Amiga keyboards too. The same was true of Amiga keyboard changes to the Amiga 1000 keyboard and it was a very good improvement with non-PC related improvements like the '(', ')' and HELP keys. Most of the Amiga keys and layout are retained with my suggestions while there are fewer keys than most PC keyboards. I was examining possible Amiga keyboard changes if Amiga keyboards changes were necessary. It would be good to come to a consensus for changes while not everyone would be happy with all changes. I would hate to lose the numeric keypad with '(' and ')' keys on an Amiga so compromise is preferable to castration.
The column of keys on the far left of the Amiga keyboard can be narrowed but the CTRL key is already the narrowest. The row of keys at the bottom containing the space bar is narrower than above and the space bar could be narrowed a little to make room for the CTRL keys on the outside. This turns the main keyboard into a more space conserving rectangle. Removal of the original CTRL key allows to move the Caps Lock key to the left with a small indention/space on the right side of the key which reduces the chances of pressing the Caps Lock key on accident (nice for blind typing like passwords). I believe my logic is valid but it may not be acceptable to the majority of Amiga users. It is certainly not a necessity as the amount of space saved is small.
kolla Quote:
Btw, cheap MiSTer clones have arrived already, so why don’t you just go and get one while you can this time?
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Capitalism makes it possible. It may be new high quality hardware enabling a 68k Amiga but does it reach the performance and features of my old, admittedly failing, Amiga hardware?
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kolla
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 28-Sep-2024 23:32:38
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 3222
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| @matthey
Why do you wish to keep the capslock key on such a vital place? You program COBOL or picture Amiga as POS terminal? Even as I write tons of REXX i don’t use capslock, and have “NoCaps” constantly active.
If anything - get rid of the capslock anf make ctrl larger. But don’t move it!
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does it reach the performance and features of my old, admittedly failing, Amiga hardware? |
No, and nothing ever will. Right?Last edited by kolla on 28-Sep-2024 at 11:41 PM. Last edited by kolla on 28-Sep-2024 at 11:41 PM.
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matthey
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 29-Sep-2024 0:33:57
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Elite Member |
Joined: 14-Mar-2007 Posts: 2342
From: Kansas | | |
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| kolla Quote:
Why do you wish to keep the capslock key on such a vital place? You program COBOL or picture Amiga as POS terminal? Even as I write tons of REXX i don’t use capslock, and have “NoCaps” constantly active.
If anything - get rid of the capslock anf make ctrl larger. But don’t move it!
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The caps lock key is in a more standard location than the ctrl key. It would still be possible to one hand press ctrl+keys on the left and would make it easier to one hand press ctlr+keys on the right. It may take some getting used to but surely you are using PC keyboards too?
You have a point that caps lock is not used as much anymore. Another option would be to move the caps lock with the num lock and scr lock above the numeric keypad so all 3 toggle keys are together. Organizationally this has some logic. I'm afraid people may yell at me that they use their caps lock key all the time though. Then again, maybe it would be better to make it more difficult to yell in forum posts.
kolla Quote:
No, and nothing ever will. Right?
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Never say never. Maybe someone smart will realize how valuable the original 68k IP is to retro computing and secure or free it. Almost dead retro gaming related IP seems to be increasing in value/demand like Amiga, Atari, Sega, Intellivision, etc. Atari and Amiga Corporation are starting to compete with Sega as retro gaming/computing IP banks.
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kolla
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 29-Sep-2024 2:18:32
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Elite Member |
Joined: 20-Aug-2003 Posts: 3222
From: Trondheim, Norway | | |
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| @matthey
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but surely you are using PC keyboards too? |
Only with ctrl mapped to the caplock key, same for macs. With PC keyboards I also swap alt and GUI keys, at least Apple have kept them in correct locations.
My left pinkie is pretty much resting on ctrl by default, as I use ctrl all the time, there's just no way of doing that with ctrl being way down where ctrl is located on "modern" keyboards.
Back in the days, it was pretty much the norm to have ctrl where Amiga has it - Apple, Atari, Sun, DEC, NeXT, HP, the old commodores...heck, even IBM PC/XT! I don't know who's "brilliant" idea it was to move down and pretty much out of reach, it was dumb concept that sadly many of the above followed in their later models for reasons I have no idea. Today, I believe it's only the Happy Hackin' keyboard that by default has ctrl located correctly, but it's lacking in all kinds of other ways.
So bottom line - any kind of "PC keyboard approximation"... meh, not at all interested. _________________ B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC |
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agami
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Re: Retro Games Limited - THEA500 Mini - Future? Posted on 29-Sep-2024 23:48:32
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Super Member |
Joined: 30-Jun-2008 Posts: 1824
From: Melbourne, Australia | | |
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| @kolla @matthey
Here's a crazy idea: Make Caps Lock and CTRL keys the same size and user-swapable?
I have to admit, I can't remember the last time I used the Caps Lock key, but I'm very used to CTRL being in the bottom left corner.
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