agami Quote:

Here's a crazy idea: Make Caps Lock and CTRL keys the same size and user-swapable? I have to admit, I can't remember the last time I used the Caps Lock key, but I'm very used to CTRL being in the bottom left corner.

I actually thought of that but how should the swappable keys be labeled? Also, another toggle key is needed to swap them. The whole keymap can actually be edited and keys swapped.

There would be some space savings just by reducing the width of the Amiga keyboard CTRL key to normal key width. Since the pinky is used, it may be possible to reduce the width a little more.

Moving CTRL keys to both sides of the space bar would make it easier to reboot on accident which may not be so good. Space saving is easy but the human factor can be difficult and not just talking about ergonomic considerations.

@agami

You might as well substitute caps lock for a double tap on Ctrl or shift...

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@agami

Quote:

Here's a crazy idea: Make Caps Lock and CTRL keys the same size and user-swapable?

Sun did that like 30+ years ago.

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@pixie

I’ve used systems where enabling/disabling capslock was a matter of pressing both shifts at the same time, and also systems that did it by double tapping shift. Even systems where capslock literally was done by pressing the shift extra hard, so a switch button under the key would be pressed.

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I've looked over some influential keyboards.

1977 PET no CTRL or CAPS lock
1977 Apple II CTRL middle left, caps lock bottom left (opposite of MAC)
1981 IBM PC/XT/AT CTRL middle left, caps lock lower right
1982 C64/128 CTRL one key above in tab location, run/stop key & shift lock below it
1984 Mac caps lock key middle left, no CTRL key
1985 Amiga CTRL+caps lock middle left
1986 IBM model M 101 key & newer PC keyboards CTRL bottom left+right, caps lock left
1987 Mac SE/II keyboards copy PC 101 key layout

IBM may be the most responsible for influencing the move of the CTRL key to the bottom while Apple may be responsible for the CTRL key location in the middle left. It looks like IBM copied Apple in placing the CTRL key in the middle left and then Apple copied IBM's popular 101 key keyboard (newer PC keyboards keep this change). The Amiga copied the PC before the change. It looks like the CTRL key in the middle left is the old Apple II standard and at the bottom is the new IBM standard. CBM keyboards and layouts lacked in many ways and most likely were not so influential. The following links show the evolution of the Apple and PC keyboard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard

Most likely over 95% of computer users use keyboards with CTRL key(s) at the bottom. Changing the Amiga keyboard to match would be more familiar to them easing Amiga adoption. I'm not even sure many Amiga users would complain as they most likely use a combination of Amiga, PC and MAC keyboards and making the layout more similar may be a benefit. The keymap is always editable for users who don't like the layout. It may be a good idea to change the reboot key to something else like left+right Amiga plus ESC keys.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Oct-2024 at 01:04 PM.

@matthey

Quote:

The Mac may be the most responsible for influencing the move of the CTRL key to the bottom

First mac keyboards didn't even have any ctrl key, so?

NeXT keyboards in 1990 had ctrl above shift (and a mechanical capslock), as did DEC LK-series of keyboards, like LK201 from 1982 (with capslock, like on amiga, right of ctrl). HP keyboards swapped ctrl and caps, but otherwise same.

Last edited by kolla on 02-Oct-2024 at 08:11 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

Changing the Amiga keyboard to match would be more familiar to them easing Amiga adoption.

You know what's even easier? Let them use actual PC keyboards! Which is _exactly_ what the THEA500 Mini let them. So what's the point of a "maxi" Amiga then?

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@matthey

The are going to remake a classic Amiga wedge computer but with USB slots and game loading from memory sticks. There won't be any changing anything to make it more like a PC! Just buy a PC and use WinUAE!

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kolla Quote:

First mac keyboards didn't even have any ctrl key, so?

Correct. I changed my timeline above to correct the mistake and add more info. It was most likely IBM who introduced the CTRL key change in 1986 and Apple copied it for the Mac SE/II in 1987.

kolla Quote:

NeXT keyboards in 1990 had ctrl above shift (and a mechanical capslock), as did DEC LK-series of keyboards, like LK201 from 1982 (with capslock, like on amiga, right of ctrl). HP keyboards swapped ctrl and caps, but otherwise same.

CTRL key above shift was not uncommon before 1986. It also wasn't as standard as CTRL keys at the bottom are today.

kolla Quote:

You know what's even easier? Let them use actual PC keyboards! Which is _exactly_ what the THEA500 Mini let them. So what's the point of a "maxi" Amiga then?

I have been saying It would be easier to use a CD32 Maxi as it eliminates keyboard production issues. In other words, use a SBC in a case initially (and optionally without a case like RPi). Still, there is a RPi 400 likely influenced by retro wedge computers that uses the new IBM layout with CTRL moved to the bottom. The Acorn Archimedes keyboard has the CRTL key in the middle left above the shift key and lower right with caps lock key in the lower left. The RPi 400 swapped Archimedes CRTL and caps lock keys as well as removing the numeric keypad and other keys on the right.



The RPi keyboard looks usable but cheap. It is cheap but too cheap for my taste.

BigD Quote:

The are going to remake a classic Amiga wedge computer but with USB slots and game loading from memory sticks. There won't be any changing anything to make it more like a PC! Just buy a PC and use WinUAE!

True, an authentic retro recreation would not change the keyboard at all but then an authentic retro recreation would not use emulation. An Amiga 600 Maxi keyboard would give me another reason to avoid buying it. An Amiga 1200 case likely could be reduced in size some before it looks wrong but the keyboard layout could not be changed much. I was thinking more along the lines of an Amiga product like the RPi 400. Some wedge Amiga fans have likely been buying it for emulation but the keyboard was reduced and cheapened too much for my liking. I would rather have traditional keys and a more Amiga like layout but some modernization is not only acceptable but likely an improvement. The following Mac keyboard with rectangular look conserves space, looks nice and looks functional.



The 109 keys is too much so this could be simplified and use more of an Amiga layout. I don't agree with kolla that the CTRL key has to be above the shift key on the left. I believe the lower left+right is more logical, helps square up the keyboard saving space and is more standard today. There are some valid counter arguments and other options.

Last edited by matthey on 02-Oct-2024 at 03:01 PM.

@matthey

Why must actual users have to suffer to “win over� some mythical “most users�? “Most users� who don’t know what to use ctrl for anyways and who accidentally activate capslock to frustration of botht themselves and their “admins�?

https://superuser.com/questions/317508/how-do-i-hit-the-ctrl-key-without-straining-my-pinky

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kolla Quote:

Why must actual users have to suffer to “win over� some mythical “most users�? “Most users� who don’t know what to use ctrl for anyways and who accidentally activate capslock to frustration of both themselves and their “admins�? https://superuser.com/questions/317508/how-do-i-hit-the-ctrl-key-without-straining-my-pinky

Your link gives insight on human behavior and ergonomics. The length of responses in text as well as time shows the topic is important to many others besides you. It does verify a couple of my points.

1. the caps lock key is becoming less important so moving it closer to the home keys was a mistake
2. the CRTL keys can be used from the lower position where they were moved

I already mentioned the advantage of having two CTRL keys at the bottom making it much easier for CTRL+key combinations for keys on the right where it is not possible for even most large hands to pinky+key press (e.g. CTRL+P). I expect the 3 most popular ways of using the lower CTRL keys are the following.

1. pinky reach down to lower left CTRL key instead
a) not as comfortable as current location
b) requires long fingers (not a problem for some replies in your link and me as I'm tall)
c) some key combinations are more difficult
2. use bottom of hand under left pinky knuckle
a) less feel than using pinky
b) less reach than using pinky
c) some key combinations are more difficult
3. use lower right CTRL key with left keys and lower left CTRL key with right keys
a) most people probably haven't thought of this and trained their brains to use it

Option #3 may be the best option but I doubt it is the most popular option. It is important how people use their keyboard and not just how they should use their keyboard. There are likely more people used to the CTRL keys at the bottom and putting them there improves interoperability between people who are used to them being there. However, it is also important for retro products to maintain retro familiarity. For this reason, the best solution may be to have 3 CTRL keys while narrowing up the CTRL key at the current location to normal key width. The caps lock key would preferably stay as well although it could be reduced in width if necessary, preferably still with lower section on right, but possibly moved to a less important location, perhaps with the other toggle keys. There would be an added bonus if the left CTRL key could be read separately from other CTRL keys so that reboot was the same familiar key combo layout and not easier to accidentally use. The ability to remap all the keys independently would be good of course. I still would not call my conclusion complete as more info could result in different suggested changes. It is unlikely new wedge Amiga keyboards would be available that were not retro reproductions or that anyone is listening to me anyway. It is tricky to modernize and move the 68k Amiga forward while maintaining the retro spirit, familiarity and compatibility.

@matthey

Not disagreeing with your points, but wanted to add this bit to the dynamic.

In an "Amiga OS" environment, wouldn't most keyboard shortcuts be anchored on the A key instead of the CTRL key? Then there should be fewer scenarios which are impacted by the position of the CTRL key.

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agami Quote:

Not disagreeing with your points, but wanted to add this bit to the dynamic. In an "Amiga OS" environment, wouldn't most keyboard shortcuts be anchored on the A key instead of the CTRL key? Then there should be fewer scenarios which are impacted by the position of the CTRL key.

There are a significant number of CTRL key shortcuts on the Amiga.

Universal/Shell

CTRL-C Break/halt process
CTRL-D Break/halt script
CTRL-E Break/halt commodity
CTRL-F Break/halt custom/unused

CTRL-\ ENDCLI equivalent
CTRL-G Screen flash
CTRL-H DEL key equivalent
CTRL-I TAB key equivalent
CTRL-J Line feed without executing the line
CTRL-K Cursor up equivalent
CTRL-L Clear the window
CTRL-M Return key equivalent
CTRL-N Activate alternative char set
CTRL-O Restore original char set
CTRL-X Deletes the current line

Text gadget/editing (may require "Text Gadget Filter" enabled in IControl prefs)

CTRL-cursor Move to extreme most position in that direction (Amiga UI Style Guide)

Ctrl-A Jump cursor to start of buffer.
Ctrl-H Delete the character to the left of the cursor. In fixed field mode, move cursor to previous character.
Ctrl-K Delete from the character under the cursor to the end of the string. Does nothing in fixed field mode.
Ctrl-M Equivalent to Return or Enter (end gadget).
Ctrl-W Delete the previous word. In fixed field mode, jump cursor to the start of the previous word.
Ctrl-U Delete from the character to the left of the cursor to the start of the buffer. In fixed field mode, jump cursor to the start of the buffer.
Ctrl-X Clears the input buffer (like Right Amiga X). In fixed field mode, jump cursor to the start of the buffer.
Ctrl-Z Jump cursor to end of buffer.

Some other Amiga programs use the CTRL key often, especially editors like Memacs, Ed and Vim. Some of these editors have Unix/Linux heritage but some have shared Amiga heritage too. Perhaps kolla wants interoperability between Unix/Linux and Amiga editors. His brain is probably trained and it gets harder to reprogram a neural network as we age.

@matthey

This is but a themed themed A600 I done bsaed on Keychron V1 Max keyboard, but IMO it could be a nice starting point to bring old and new together. These are real dimensions, keys are real, at least the Keychron case. For all I could gather the A600 is real too.

A600 based Keychron V1 Max: full size

Inspired when I saw this video thumbnail:


What a little cosy thing it would be running Amiga on it I thought

Last edited by pixie on 08-Oct-2024 at 03:03 PM.
Last edited by pixie on 08-Oct-2024 at 02:20 PM.

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pixie Quote:

This is but a themed themed A600 I done based on Keychron V1 Max keyboard, but IMO it could be a nice starting point to bring old and new together. These are real dimensions, keys are real, at least the Keychron case. For all I could gather the A600 is real too.

The keys are not labeled so I'm not sure what is done. What is the bottom left key and middle left key (CTRL or Caps Lock)?

Personally, these mini keyboards may look cute but I don't see it as desirable to cut so much functionality off for a desktop computer. I get it for a mobile device where the keyboard is not used much but otherwise I don't like it. It is possible to reduce the Amiga keyboard size a fair amount with a negligible amount of functionality loss. Let's compare an Amiga 3000 keyboard to a Dell keyboard I use.

keyboard | English size | Metric size
Amiga3000 19.25"x7" 48.9cmx17.8cm
Dell-L100 17.5"x6" 44.5cmx15.2cm

Without losing any functionality, it is possible to reduce the keyboard width by ~10% and the depth by ~15%. Removing the keypad, scrunching or removing the cursor keys and keys above them results in ~25% further reduction in the width. The loss of keypad and normal Amiga keyboard layout is not worth it in my opinion. Even for games, the numeric keypad and/or DEL+HELP keys are sometimes used and often for flight simulators. The DEL key may be left and HELP key right in some games so they should remain next to each other. Some games move around or change the viewpoint with the keypad. The Amiga has more of a keyboard standard than the PC or Mac and, at least for retro use, conservative changes would be prudent.

AmigaNG has some Amiga prototype pics too.

https://amigang.com/prototype-concept-amiga/

The Natami prototype has a few keyboard changes. The easiest for keyboards is the CD32 Mini prototype though.

https://amigang.com/cd32mini/

The CD32 size could be reduced while still supporting a functional CD-ROM drive. It has to be tempting when RGL already has improved CD32 style controllers. Time is running out to put real hardware inside for the Amiga 40th anniversary.

@matthey

It’s not about the brain, it’s about whether my left hand ends up cramped or not, because yes on Amiga I use ctrl a lot. On UNIX and Linux actually less so, as I use vi mode all over the place, in the shells and lineeditors. But yes, ctrl is fundamental there too, to send signals and more. I find the way Windows has adopted ctrl as GUI key instead of actually using the darn GUI keys they introduced rather laughable, and the horrendous way some Linux terminal emulators try to mimic this nonsense with letting ctrl+c work as “copy� if text is somehow marked and “SIGINT� if not… quite confusing and ridiculous. All this used to be quite standardized across platforms and operating systems before Microsoft (and IBM) insisted on screwing it all over. It’s mighty ironic that one today must turn to Apple to have some sort of consistency and coherence.

Quote:

use the CTRL key often, especially editors like Memacs, Ed and Vim.

MEmacs yes, but ed and vim don’t really use ctrl much, they are married to the escape key.

Sometimes I do wonder how much, if at all, people like you and agami actually _use_ Amiga…

Last edited by kolla on 09-Oct-2024 at 12:05 AM.

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@matthey

Quote:

The keys are not labeled so I'm not sure what is done. What is the bottom left key and middle left key (CTRL or Caps Lock)?

From top left down you have
Tab
Ctrl
Shift
Fn Alt Amiga spacebar Amiga Alt

Quote:

Even for games, the numeric keypad and/or DEL+HELP keys are sometimes used and often for flight simulators.

Something an emulation setup can set into another area of the keyboard therefore a Fn key. Imo the main problem in A600 isn't the lack of numeric keypad, is that the key map cannot mapped elsewhere, for the reasons you say. When you are using the flight simulation you're not writing letters to your grandma so having a way to map the numeric keypad into a part of the available key map would bring back the functionality without hampering it.

Quote:

Even for games, the numeric keypad and/or DEL+HELP

These remain on the right column. Del is above backspace

Last edited by pixie on 09-Oct-2024 at 02:39 AM.

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kolla Quote:

It’s not about the brain, it’s about whether my left hand ends up cramped or not, because yes on Amiga I use ctrl a lot. On UNIX and Linux actually less so, as I use vi mode all over the place, in the shells and lineeditors. But yes, ctrl is fundamental there too, to send signals and more. I find the way Windows has adopted ctrl as GUI key instead of actually using the darn GUI keys they introduced rather laughable, and the horrendous way some Linux terminal emulators try to mimic this nonsense with letting ctrl+c work as “copy� if text is somehow marked and “SIGINT� if not… quite confusing and ridiculous. All this used to be quite standardized across platforms and operating systems before Microsoft (and IBM) insisted on screwing it all over. It’s mighty ironic that one today must turn to Apple to have some sort of consistency and coherence.

Windows lacks a standard UI. Not even M$ is consistent. Most newer AmigaOS programs at least look like the programmers read the Amiga UI Style Guide even though it could use an update.

The qualifier keys on the opposite side of the keyboard are supposed to be used when typing. Just like the right shift should be used with the 'C' key, the right CTRL should be used for CTRL-c. The left CTRL key should be used for CTRL-p which isn't even reachable on an Amiga keyboard with one hand. The middle left CTRL key may be easier for some key combos but it is worse for others. The two CTRL keys at the bottom are a workable alternative. The argument to keep a CTRL key on the middle left for a retro Amiga keyboard is also a valid argument. Three CTRL keys, or at least adding two keys to the left and right outside of the bottom row that could be used as CTRL keys, may be the best solution.

kolla Quote:

MEmacs yes, but ed and vim don’t really use ctrl much, they are married to the escape key. Sometimes I do wonder how much, if at all, people like you and agami actually _use_ Amiga…

I tried Memacs but very much disliked it and avoided it as much as possible. I used Ed often and heavily customized it with ARexx but it made it slower and it had a nasty bug that occasionally deleted the first line of files (custom menus avoided most ESC key sequences). I may have tried Vim due to the Amiga history but didn't get into it. I also tried Black's Editor and a few others off Aminet but I eventually settled on Ced. It's not perfect but it is powerful, customizable, fast and mostly bug free. There may be better options for source code like Notepad++ on Windows which I use. GoldED from Cubic IDE and TextEdit from AmigaOS 3.2 may be better Amiga options for coding but I never tried them. The Amiga editor selection is much improved from the early days of CBM supplied editors. I haven't used some of the old editors for over a decade but as bad as they were I would rather forget them. Honestly, I'm not even motivated to turn on an Amiga anymore and haven't in about a year besides a CD32 to test on a TV.

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: [image removed] This is but a themed themed A600 I done bsaed on Keychron V1 Max keyboard, but IMO it could be a nice starting point to bring old and new together. These are real dimensions, keys are real, at least the Keychron case. For all I could gather the A600 is real too.

That's what I would prefer.

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: Sometimes I do wonder how much, if at all, people like you and agami actually _use_ Amiga…

Wonder no further, good sir, I can answer how much I (agami) actually _use_ an Amiga.

2-3 times a year. Mostly to play some old games. Which in most cases means using a joystick/game controller. With only an 040/40MHz, she's kind of slow and useless for almost anything else.

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