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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
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Poll : AmigaOS4 KVM/Emulation
I would get AmigaOS4 Forever Edition/check out emulation
I already run OS4 in Emulation
Intresting, see where this goes...
AmigaOS4 Hardware only!
Not intrested in Emulation
Not intrested in OS4
Pancakes!
 
PosterThread
pixie 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 8:03:34
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@ppcamiga1

Why do you bring your lousy math abilities applied into Sam when you can apply them better on RPI 3? Lol Your RPI is faster then your Sam after all. You can't say that Sam is faster a given time then emu68 in applications since it depends from application to application, you have applications where 68k to arm is way bigger then others. Taking that into consideration and trouble for you wouldn't it?

How do you run quake on your standalone emu68 RPI3 ? In your dreams?

Quote:
It is stupid to switch from real 68k to emulator on arm.
It is not fast and not modern.
Keep your classic clean without arm crap.


Because it's so much faster running it on a 030 or even a 060... Because having SD card, RTG is really a downside, and eventually wifi.

It's really sad to see that some people don't have the slightest grip with reality.

Last edited by pixie on 20-Oct-2023 at 08:08 AM.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 9:45:02
#102 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

@pixie

Quote:

How do you run quake on your standalone emu68 RPI3 ? In your dreams?


You can expect Quake on "standalone" Emu68 RPi3 to run at quite similar speeds as RTG Quake on PiStorm Emu68 RPi3. Certainly not slower.

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pixie 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 10:32:44
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@kolla

Well current emu68k's RTG make no use of gfx acceleration so it should speed up things quite a bit, not to say that you would also have to emulate the Amiga itself before running it, but my question isn't regarding what to expect, he states time and time again that he actually runs emu68k on RPI 3, afaik while there is emu68 for standalone it's just pure CPU emulation, there's no amiga platform you could attach it to which would allow you to run amiga 68k quake. You have piamiga, which uses linux underneath, emulation on top but not emu68k.

If we go into expectations I might as well bring RPI 5 that has speed enough to expectedly run in emulation quake on par with its SAM, it's not about selective picky choosing of hardware to fit your needs.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 17:31:45
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@kolla

Well current emu68k's RTG make no use of gfx acceleration so it should speed up things quite a bit


Why? Emu68 on standalone Pi would also make no use of gfx acceleration, unless someone writes specific support for it, but then that support would also work on current pistorm, so.. heh.

Quote:

not to say that you would also have to emulate the Amiga itself before running it[quote]
Not much needs to be emulated, just enough to get the OS booted up to RTG output… or one could just adopt AROS/68k.

[quote]but my question isn't regarding what to expect, he states time and time again that he actually runs emu68k on RPI 3, afaik while there is emu68 for standalone it's just pure CPU emulation

Yes, only CPU is _emulated_, but Emu68 is more - it is also full access to all Pi hardware from within the emulated 68k system - it’s a 68k Raspberry Pi.

Quote:
there's no amiga platform you could attach it to which would allow you to run amiga 68k quake.


It is called a PiStorm, and lets you attach an "Amiga" (reall, or FPGA) to the GPIO ports on the Raspberry Pi, very nice for those cases when legacy software specifically require Amiga chipset. Like AmigaOS. However, Quake as such, does not.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 17:40:07
#105 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

What if OS3 team suddenly decide to target Emu68 “standalone” as supoorted hardware? There’s really nothing preventing them from doing it.

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pixie 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 18:20:58
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@kolla
Quote:
Why? Emu68 on standalone Pi would also make no use of gfx acceleration, unless someone writes specific support for it, but then that support would also work on current pistorm, so.. heh.

The drivers ARE being made and are about to be released for piStorm, and I have no doubt that IF and WHEN a standalone with no dependencies arise for the RPI arises they will get the same drivers that belong to the AMIGA USERSPACE. I know this.

But what I was replying was
Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
My rpi3 makes under emu68 in quake 62 fps in 320x240 8 bit 2022 port hand made 68k optimised.


The point being made is (1) is that NO SOLUTION EXISTS IN THE PRESENT TIME which allows him to run Quake.

When I state "current emu68k's RTG make no use of gfx acceleration" I state it because the PPC version which is being compared does indeed run on a system WHICH HAS RTG gfx acceleration.

For the rest of the post, check point 1, because it's the only point being I was trying to make.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 18:36:43
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@pixie

The problem with ppcamiga1 benchmarks, its apples and oranges.

we need to convert into something that is comparable.
320x240 is only 76800 pixels @ 62 FPS.
640x480 is 307200 pixels @ 56 FPS and 89 FPS.

if vi divide 307200 on 76800 we get 4 x number of pixels.
so we two options divide 62 FPS by 4 to get normalized score for 640x480,
or we can multiply score of 56 FPS and 89 FPS by 4 to get normalized score for 320x240.
If vi divide 62 FPS by 4 we get 15 FPS if was running in 640x280..
now if we compare 15 fps vs sam460 56 fps, we talking 3 x speed on sam460.
if compare 15 fps vs pi3 native speed of 89 fps, we get 5 x the speed.

we conclude emulation sucks, Sam460 is better then PI emulation, but Sam460 sucks compared to native Linux.

The 1/3 of speed of 1Ghz Sam460 if that’s what he has is around 333 Mhz, that’s faster than some of the Classic Amiga Accelerator cards, 240 mzh. I say PI can be a decent PowerPC accelerator for classic amiga. (given the right software)

but it wont not be good solution to run AmigaOS4.1, for that we need something more powerful.


but that’s not all…. How does it compare to Mac M1.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Oct-2023 at 06:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Oct-2023 at 06:42 PM.

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matthey 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 18:37:23
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2064
From: Kansas

kolla Quote:

What if OS3 team suddenly decide to target Emu68 “standalone” as supported hardware? There’s really nothing preventing them from doing it.


AmigaOS 3 already supports Emu68 if Emu68 can fully emulate a 68k CPU. An AmigaOS target is more than a CPU though. Drivers are needed for Amiga hardware that is not present. While Emu68 with PiStorm may be an accelerator for ancient 68k Amiga hardware, it is a decelerator for a RPi and is lacking 68k drivers.

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

we conclude emulation sucks, Sam460 is better then PI emulation, but Sam460 sucks compared to native Linux.


For performance,

Sam460 > RPi 3 with 68k Amiga emulation

Sam460 > RPi 4 or RPi 5 with 68k Amiga emulation though? Should be a close competition.

NutsAboutAmiga Quote:

but that’s not all…. How does it compare to Mac M1.


For cost and value,

RPi 3 > Sam460
RPi 4 > Sam460
RPi 5 > Sam460
Mac M1 > Sam 460

68060 uses 2.5 million transistors
M1 SoC uses 16 billion transistors = 6,400 68060 cores
M1 Ultra SoC uses 114 billion transistors = 45,600 68060 cores
CISC is complex and RISC is minimalist?
M1 still offers better performance/$ than Sam460?

Last edited by matthey on 20-Oct-2023 at 07:11 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 20-Oct-2023 at 07:10 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 20:14:53
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

emu68
six times slower than native code
four times than sam460
i don't need this shit
real amiga have to have real cpu
my next classic amiga will be with good old 68030
only with better graphics
classic future is fpga
it is affordable and real no fake like emu68

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pixie 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 20:16:34
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@NutsAboutAmiga

But how can I trust these values when there's no Quake running standalone RPI on EMU68? Besides, all these values you have in one side RTG using gfx acceleration and the using only CPU.

I'm also wondering on why OS4 needs such beafy setup. As long as you have a gfx accceleration supported which apps exactly need that amazing power.


Quake on a RPI4
09/2023
320x240 - 92.1 FPS
640x480 - 47.2 FPS

Then we have RPI 5 is 2–3× the speed of 4, at 60$. Still it isn't know if it is possible to use it with pistorm due to latency, and there's a new gfx chip also, still if it could be used standalone those values would surely go way higher. I guess it would have power enough to beat a SAM

Last edited by pixie on 20-Oct-2023 at 09:50 PM.

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michalsc 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 21:42:35
#111 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
i don't need this shit


Great, then don’t use it. Problem solved.

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pixie 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 21:51:10
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@michalsc

Please, don't feed the troll, ldon't get your hands dirty, leave it to us! ^^

Last edited by pixie on 21-Oct-2023 at 06:09 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 20-Oct-2023 at 09:54 PM.

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michalsc 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 21:52:57
#113 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@pixie

Ok, sorry :)

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DiscreetFX 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 20-Oct-2023 22:24:17
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2003
Posts: 2498
From: Chicago, IL

@ppcamiga1

It’s good for everyone to have lots of choices, especially in the small Amiga market. Then popular solutions can thrive and unpopular solutions might die over time. With freedom of choice customers and the market can decide the winners and losers. Then perhaps the Amiga market can rise up once again as a successful hobbyist market. No longer sold in the millions but hundreds of thousands of sales would be okay. The A500 Mini has proven there is demand when done right.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 20-Oct-2023 at 11:33 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 4:02:16
#115 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

@DiscreetFX

this shit pistorm changes amiga into mouse and keyboard interface for rpi.
nobody makes software for emulator.
real amiga have to have real cpu.


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V8 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 6:56:31
#116 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
nobody makes software for emulator.


Wrong.
It should read "(almost) nobody makes software for amiga and in particular OS4."

How many pieces of new software has people released for OS4 in the last few years?
Not counting quick recompiles of 20 year old games from Linux.

The annual sinclair spectrum CGC release MORE newly created titles every year than the amount of new software releases in total over the last 5 years for PPC amigas.
EVERY YEAR the spectrum 48k gets more unique releases that you.

Why is it that no one writes new software for NG? And if there is no software what is the point in having a PPC if there is no software to run on it?

Again, SINCLAIR SPECTRUM had this year MORE new and unique titles released for it than Amiga PPC.

Last edited by V8 on 21-Oct-2023 at 06:58 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 8:04:02
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@V8

There is monthly roundup etch month, I’m always surprised by amount stuff happing, I personally don’t have time to test it all, then I’m busy writing my own code. And yeh coding is time consuming.
software for AmigaOS4.x is made for OS4.1 users, and perhaps does not make sense outside of the community.

it makes little sense making insecure business software on insecure OS, the most attractive market for AmigaOS, is the console market, not the desktop market or the server market. But who knows, web operating systems that are essentially do not allowing you to install native programs and apps can be way to add security, but I bet no one in this community will like that idea.

680x0 CPUs are not produced anymore, and 68060 has been wherry expensive, this Vampire and other FPGA based computers have been way to go. Now people want a little bit more power and FPGA’s upper limit is reached, and only way forward is JIT. Full computer emulations solutions like WinUAE has always been criticized for being imprecise.

Now on PowerPC things has been little better, decent CPU relative to what we using it for has existed for years, except we are not using this chips (Power), because too expensive, we have instead look at embedded CPU’s and CPU nearing EOL, to get good price, Trever has look at alternative this ended in A1222 with incompatible FPU, he seamed not understand the cost in development to workaround different FPU instruction set, as result project has run over budget, taken longer to get market, and getting bad reputation, its been expected to be faster Sam460, but slower X1000. Now that was all good as long AmigaONE where faster than emulation, but that’s not case anymore. X1000 is slower than Apple M1 mac using QEMU, the only thing that make it better right now is the graphic drivers, once Hans shoot AmigaOS4.1 in the foot, emulation will be faster in 3D/2D and every other metric compared to that computer. And everything below X1000 will be rendered obsolete.

Essentially the PowerPC market is being killed of fast.
ignoring price, that was a problem as long as where some people willing to buy high price, but your not going sustain a market by selling computers to same people over and over again, in particular if there not faster then what they have, Trever need to reach market. This why emulation market looks tempting, its no question about in long run we need to find solutions, moving to another architecture, but its not going to happen soon, AmigaOS4.x is not ready yet for that, there things to be solved, before moving to a so big project.

People like ppcamiga1 who does not accept emulation is a solution, should run and buy the A1222 or X5040 because as soon, that option might not be there, there is work on laptop from ACube the T2080 believe the CPU is, should be more powerful then X50x0, and its a laptop take it places, how cool is that (new laptop for tiny market like this). that way everyone loved A1200 it was easy to take demo events / etc. Its not going to be a airbook, it will be few cm high. But probably acceptable all considered.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 08:29 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 08:12 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 9:03:51
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@V8

Another thing that different between AmigaONE and Amiga, is that on AmigaONE CPU soldered on, and can’t simply create upgrade kits, on Amiga market accelerators, has been the big part of the market. For example, the 060 accelerators, are expensive but not as expensive as a complete motherboard.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 09:05 AM.

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kolla 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 9:44:47
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2950
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote:
kolla Quote:

What if OS3 team suddenly decide to target Emu68 “standalone” as supported hardware? There’s really nothing preventing them from doing it.


AmigaOS 3 already supports Emu68 if Emu68 can fully emulate a 68k CPU. An AmigaOS target is more than a CPU though. Drivers are needed for Amiga hardware that is not present. While Emu68 with PiStorm may be an accelerator for ancient 68k Amiga hardware, it is a decelerator for a RPi and is lacking 68k drivers.


Are you dense on purpose? Of course if AmigaOS team decide to specifically target Emu68, they would need to replace depencies on classic Amiga hardware (CIAs etc) with what’s available on the Pi hardware. Yes drivers, 68k drivers. That’s what OS development is about.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: AmigaOS4 KVM Edition? virtual gpu driver Picasso96 coming soon.
Posted on 21-Oct-2023 10:54:49
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@kolla

It can use 68K drivers, using Putina JIT, not ideal, as it be emulation on top of emulation, something that should be avoided. But it can't run on Emu68K, it need to run a version of QEMU thats stripped down to emulate PowerPC, on top of the PiStorm.
(AmigaOS4.1 Classic will simply think its running on BlizzardPPC.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 10:57 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 10:56 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Oct-2023 at 10:55 AM.

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