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      /  some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 14:03:27
#141 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

Quote:
What relevant to Amiga users? It's certainly not relevant to the rest of the world.


Amiga users are a superset of NG users. Show me an NG user that came to the platform with no prior Amiga experience. 68K Amiga users outnumber all NG users combined, even if you made the arbitrary dividing line that if you had NG, you are an NG user and not a 68K one when in fact you might use both.

Quote:
And no, by extension, I don't include Amiga emulators with that.


And of course, you are the sole arbitrator of what counts as an Amiga and who counts as an Amiga user, so untermensch on virtual Amiga systems must not be counted. I have several classic systems., but I depend on emulation because none of them are currently in a state I'd risk. My OS4 machine is dead and I cannot justify the ludicrous expense to replace it with something more recent, on which to run the same trivially small catalogue of unique software and ports or applications that already run better on hardware I do have.

Quote:
I find it pointless to compare with an emulator as it's an unnatural environment relying on the host for speed. Like, you don't buy AmigaOS 3.2 to run in an emulator, you buy it for the real thing. You can test it in an emulator but only running it in emulation seems pointless.


Why does OS3.x/68k continue to be developed while OS4/PPC is stagnant? What better indication of NG is a dead horse is there?



Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 02:04 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 14:23:35
#142 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@Karlos

OS3.x/68k is developed by a few fans who have no problem working for free while one non-contributing entity is cashing in on their work.

OS4/PPC is (not) developed by a few people who are under the illusion that they are a business and often hate each others guts while being hold back by a bunch of non-contributing entities that for sure hate each others guts.

User numbers are clearly not the deciding factor here.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 14:46:03
#143 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

All that does is prove a point that people care more for 68K.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 14:50:21
#144 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
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@Karlos

It proves exactly nothing since the starting coordinates of how OS development is done or not done are so different.

You might have had an point if you compared OS3.x to MorphOS but even here you'd have the lack of TehName and the fact that one is going steady for 20 years while the other is the current hype.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 14:57:30
#145 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

How it started is irrelevant. The viability and potential of each depends only on its current state.

MorphOS is developed by a bunch of fans that are basically making bugger all from sales too, so near identical to 3.x development. And it will just die off if it stays on PPC. It may take longer to reach the heat death that OS4 has reached, but the trajectory is utterly inevitable. The PPC is the problem, not the software.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 02:57 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:04:01
#146 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
The PPC is the problem, not the software.



Neither is.

Most users being 50 year old geeks means that everything "Amiga" will die off at the same time......

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:07:41
#147 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

You don't think being forced to choose between second hand apple kit or insanely expensive, once a decade hardware releases for software that in each case stands no chance of utilising it all, will kill it off before the last of us passes on?

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:14:21
#148 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
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From: Unknown

@Karlos

*shrug*

For 68k you either rely on an 30 year piece of C= HW that is downgraded to a glorified KBD controller in most cases or you do full emulation which is just as much an option for PPC.


The question is what do you wanna do?
Play ancient games? No OS or HW development needed.
Play badly ported 20+ year old games? PPC is still the better option.
"Use" it as an everyday computer, nothing 68k even competes here.


We are kinda back to the platform wars, but while Amiga vs. Atari, PuP vs. WOS or Red vs Blue still had some entertainment value this round is just pathetic.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:42:02
#149 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

You are totally off the mark. For 68K you have options. You can choose legacy silicon. You can choose FPGA. You can choose emulation, both entirely emulated and partially. Tell me, how many NG users run their OS of choice in QEMU? There are many 68K emulation users. I know people today that learn 68K from scratch purely for fun, I haven't met one that's learned PPC - even among people on NG. Why? Because, unlike 68K, PPC is not cool, it's not remotely inspiring, it's pallid, insipid tedious as well as simply being both obsolete and irrelevant. Even if you do prefer it, emulation choices are QEMU or bust.

The only reason we have PPC is a quirk of history. It was never on Commodores roadmap. It happened because Phase5 made it happen. It was a sound move at that time when there was already a migration case (apple) to prove viability it seemed to have a decent future ahead of it, but not today.

Quote:

We are kinda back to the platform wars, but while Amiga vs. Atari, PuP vs. WOS or Red vs Blue still had some entertainment value this round is just pathetic.


I love your optimism. But this is no platform war because NG/PPC isn't a platform. It's a corpse. The only chance it has of being a platform is to migrate away from PPC. Therein lies the biggest irony of it all, unlike 68K, NG could move away without that much effort. It's almost entirely written in compilable languages already, as is the software base. It has far less reason and excuse to stay on PPC than the Amiga had to stay on 68K in the first place.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 03:48 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:49:28
#150 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@Karlos
>>For 68K you have options.

>>You can choose legacy silicon.
10-20 years older than the Macs supported by MorphOS

>> You can choose FPGA.
Call it fake retro, called it badly done NG or just call it a bag full of nothing

>>You can choose emulation,
Sure you can


>Tell me, how many NG users run their OS of choice in QEMU?

3.838 yep thats the exact number.

Or maybe it is just that the performance gap between a fast PPC and anything x86 just isn't yet big enough for it to make much sense.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 15:57:25
#151 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos
Quote:
3.838


Wow, almost 4 users you say? (J/K) Regular, bonafide full time don't use anything else users, you say? Not just 3838 people that "downloaded and tried it out to see how it goes but I'll stick to my PPC for the moment thx", users you say?

No. It's just not an interesting enough proposition. Now if MOS was released for x64*, now that would be different. How long since it was shown booting? I guess we just need to wait.


Two more weeks.

*Even better on ARM.

Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 04:03 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 04:00 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 03:59 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 26-Nov-2023 at 03:58 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 16:22:18
#152 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:



*Even better on ARM.


Point me to an ARM device with a fully "open" GPU or one that can take a PCIe card and we are in business.


No MacPro or obscure industrial boards don't count.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 16:24:56
#153 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

I noticed you totally avoided the x64 path and dived straight for that. What is the reason for sticking to PPC?

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 16:55:39
#154 ]
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Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Erm, AMD64 is "a given" assuming anybody lives that long...

While ARM may make some sense for fake-retro 68k turbos and and plastic EMU boxes I just don't see as viable (in it's current form) for MorphOS_NG_4_JogurtBox.

Last edited by Kronos on 26-Nov-2023 at 04:57 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 26-Nov-2023 20:41:33
#155 ]
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Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

Well, based on your earlier grim assessment, it's a race to the grave for the platform or the user base.

You know, it's a crying shame to be honest that we are still so obsessed about which physical hardware it runs on. I get it, the Amiga once had an unmatched technical superiority, but that was over before the 80's even ended.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 27-Nov-2023 0:03:12
#156 ]
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Posts: 12835
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@Karlos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkADiJCYS2k

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 27-Nov-2023 1:22:39
#157 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:

Point me to an ARM device with a fully "open" GPU or one that can take a PCIe card and we are in business.


Raspberry Pi 5, PCIe connection to an external GPU has been done already. I mean it looks physically ridiculous and it barely works, but the biggest technical issues so far are largely overcome.

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OlafS25 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 27-Nov-2023 8:57:24
#158 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@Kronos

it is the nostalgy factor here that decides regarding OS development. And there is interest by many people in it and response. Response is in my view today almost more important than money. Many projects are dropped because developer have the impression there is no interest. That is certainly not the case in OS3 development.

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OlafS25 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 27-Nov-2023 9:11:46
#159 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@Kronos

it is the retro feeling for most. It is basically a retro community. And yes for me also the hardware is no longer most important but the available software. Most of the software is 68k and if you are more retro orientated you will run 68k software on original harrdware or something like PiStorm/Vampire or emulation.

There is only few software that is more up to date than the 68k versions and running on PPC and if I want something modern I do not use Amiga stuff for it. The software specific for NG platforms is mostly outdated compared to modern software running on mainstream platform. If I want retro I use 68k, if I need modern software i use one of the big platforms. NG is somewhere in the middle.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 27-Nov-2023 at 09:12 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 27-Nov-2023 9:19:01
#160 ]
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Posts: 6369
From: Unknown

@Karlos

I think Raspberry would be a cool new hardware base, expecially because it is very cheap. Amiga hardware would only have a chance in a broader market if it is somewhere special and offers a cheap entry. But as modern platform you would also need a lot of changes and rewrites of the OS like 64bit, full memory protection for stability and security, SMP support. A modern experiece and not to forget exclusive software.

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