@MagicSN

Quote:

And do not try to redefine what an Amiga is.

But, you are the person trying to re-define what an Amiga is.
You are the person that are saying that an old A500 is no longer an Amiga but a "classic Amiga".
It is no longer a real amiga but needs a special qualifier to distinguish it from real amigas.

I have no problem if you want to call your X1000 an Amiga. Feel free to do so. Knock yourself out. But stop trying to tell me that an A500 is not a real Amiga.


I think:
If someone with an X1000/X5000 wants to call their machine an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If someone running AROS on his x86_64 laptop calls it an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If someone running Morphos on a Peg2 wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If a vampire user wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If a Draco owner wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If Bernd wants to call his Amithlon an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
If someone running UAE on his linux desktop calls it an Amiga, fine, go ahead.
You and team OS4: A commodore amiga a500 is NOT an amiga, it is a Classic amiga.

One of these statements is not like the other.

Please stop telling us that our machines are not amigas. It is very annoying and makes many of us dislike the OS4 folks.

Last edited by V8 on 07-Dec-2023 at 11:48 PM.

@V8

@Rob

Quote:

[From Image] Don't call me Classic.

Vintage, then?

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@MagicSN

Quote:

MagicSN wrote: @agami If you are not believing Amiga still has some value why are you even here ? And my statement on "PowerPC Amigas right now are the most powerful Amigas right now" is based on actual measurable data. Frame rate in this case.

I put in a bunch of examples in the hope of avoiding misunderstandings.

Of course the Amiga et al has value. Both intrinsic (objective) and nostalgic (subjective).
What I stated is that your statement, the one in which you proclaim the X1k/X5k are the most powerful Amigas, that statement has no value in 2023.

It would be like stating that a particular CPU is the most powerful 32-bit single core CPU, in a world where even IoT devices use multi-core and/or 64-bit MCUs/MPUs.

Or to put it another way, it would be like stating that a particular single-driver speaker is the worlds most powerful Mono Speaker, in a world where Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and spatial audio driver-array smart speakers, are the norm.

You might like the idea of listening to single-channel spoken-word audio at a distance, a use case for the most powerful single-driver mono speaker, but most of the world wants at minimum stereo sound.

Or perhaps the way Hamlet said it: “O God, I could be bounded in a nut shell and count myself a king of infinite space.”

So I am not denying that A-EON's X abominations are the most powerful PPC machines capable of running AmigaOS 4.
I'm simply saying that in the larger scheme of things, that means extremely little.

Last edited by agami on 08-Dec-2023 at 05:42 AM.
Last edited by agami on 08-Dec-2023 at 05:41 AM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@Karlos

That is some excellent codifying and categorising of Amiga systems.

It should be on a publicly accessible Wiki.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: Bosanac Quote: Amiga has a rainbow checkmark for a reason, don't try to rewrite what an Amiga is. Everyone knows it's been whatever identifies as an Amiga since the beginning! The rainbow was a very special symbol that God would not punish corrupt people with a worldwide flood before historical revisionism by corrupt people that wanted to erase the original symbolism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism

Somebody is taking it way too seriously.

Amiga Imagery: The meaning behind the Amiga's changing image
Quote:

The new Commodore-Amiga also had a new trademark of a multi-coloured checkmark. The rainbow colours of the design symbolized the advanced graphic chipset that lay at the heart of the Amiga. In a time when the Apple Mac could only handle black and white graphics and the IBM PC was a text-based monstrosity, this was an important promotional technique... Whilst the checkmark appears to be a new development it firmly routes the Amigas origin in the range of Commodore machines that had been released during the past 10 years. The rainbow effect is a characteristic Commodore design that had been used in the past to a lesser degree with the C64, to create an impression of ease of use and power. To a degree this was Commodore's interpretation of the Amiga, not to be treated as a separate product for a different, high-end market but as a continuation of the Commodore 8-bit line onto 16-bit.

The difference between the Amiga rainbow and others is that it was a continuous graduation rather than distinct colors. This symbolized the Amiga's much larger color palette compared to other home computers of the day, and its ability to display them all at once. It culminated in the Kickstart 2 ROM boot screen where the Amiga itself displays 'all the colors of the rainbow' (actually only 64 colors, but who's counting?).

So in a sense the Amiga rainbow does indeed represent the 'non binary' nature of the Amiga chipset, which transcended the pixelated graphics of other contemporary machines. It also represents the Amiga's creative abilities and appeal to a diverse audience, including artists (who not coincidentally are often gay).

That logo made the Amiga stand out from the crowd. The A1000's case was the same boring beige as the others, but the logo promised so much more. And unlike eg. the Apple Macintosh logo it wasn't a lie.

Unfortunately that beautiful rainbow checkmark was rather difficult to reproduce in print media - particularly in black and white - which made its use as a trademark problematic. With the introduction of the A3000 Commodore changed to a more print-friendly but boring 2 color logo, in line with the boring corporate image of the A3000 (and the 90's in general). Having lots of colors on screen at once was not a big deal any more. The emphasis was on processing power and resolution for business applications, not creativity or diversity.

When the Amiga passed to Escom the logo changed again. Now the text is straight with a little red triangle above the the 'I', like a red bow tie on a tuxedo. The Amiga is no longer creative and innovative - it's a pretentious stuffed shirt.

Finally in 1997 the Boing Ball was resurrected as the new official logo, banishing the ghost of the Amiga checkmark. The Boing Ball is a good representation of what the Amiga has now become - an Amiga in name only. They'll slap that red and white ball on anything and you're supposed to want it because of the Amiga's history, but all vestiges of the original design have been expunged - which makes it an appropriate logo for 'Next Generation' ppc Amigas.

Last edited by bhabbott on 08-Dec-2023 at 03:25 AM.

@V8

Quote:

V8 wrote: @MagicSN Quote: And do not try to redefine what an Amiga is. But, you are the person trying to re-define what an Amiga is. You are the person that are saying that an old A500 is no longer an Amiga but a "classic Amiga". It is no longer a real amiga but needs a special qualifier to distinguish it from real amigas. I have no problem if you want to call your X1000 an Amiga. Feel free to do so. Knock yourself out. But stop trying to tell me that an A500 is not a real Amiga. I think: If someone with an X1000/X5000 wants to call their machine an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If someone running AROS on his x86_64 laptop calls it an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If someone running Morphos on a Peg2 wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If a vampire user wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If a Draco owner wants to call it an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If Bernd wants to call his Amithlon an Amiga, fine, go ahead. If someone running UAE on his linux desktop calls it an Amiga, fine, go ahead. You and team OS4: A commodore amiga a500 is NOT an amiga, it is a Classic amiga. One of these statements is not like the other. Please stop telling us that our machines are not amigas. It is very annoying and makes many of us dislike the OS4 folks.

I've absolutely no problem if someone is saying "FOR ME this is an Amiga". Where the "FOR ME" means: "In my PERSONAL, SUBJECTIVE, OPINION this is an Amiga".

That's fine, as long as it's not spread like a FACT.

Otherwise, well, I've problems because nobody can wake-up in the morning and spread as a fact that a pig is an horse instead. I mean, someone which is living on a parallel universe where pink coloured unicorns are flying could do it, yeah!
But on our universe, where exact definitions exist in this case, I expect that even the average Joe sticks to the facts and use the right term for a specific thing.

Maybe I'm too much biased, because I'm a professional and I take technical questions (many times also non-technical ones, if I've the right knowledge: it's the mindset) in a professional way.


@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: @V8

Do you understand that Hyperion has NO right to call "classic" an Amiga? It's clearly written at the bottom of the image and I report it here for your convenience:

"Amiga" and the Amiga logo are registered trademarks of Amiga, Inc.

It's the same reason why vendors which have sold "AmigaOne" machines haven't called them "Amiga" on their sites: they had NO right to do it!

And since some years it's even worse for them: they can't even use this label anymore, as anyone can quickly check.
X5000: http://www.a-eon.com/?page=x5000
A1222+: http://www.a-eon.com/news/News_Release_A1222+_production_underway.pdf

"AmigaOne" completely disappeared, as anyone can clearly see!

However the A1222+ PDF still reports this:

ACube Systems have already successfully produced updated A1222+ v1.3 prototypes and will manage the new motherboard production and testing while AAA Technology will act as the main distributor for the new Amiga machine

and:

By combining our strengths and expertise, we aim to deliver an enhanced computing experience for Next-Generation Amiga enthusiasts.

and:

Cardiff based A-EON Technology is well known for its long time dedications to the Amiga computing scene with its X1000, X5000 Next-generation power user systems

The last two sentences are a bit on the gray area, but the first one is definitely clear: they are calling it "Amiga machine", but they have NO right to do it!

They are risking A LOT if someone reports this to Amiga Corporation, which actually owns the Amiga trademarks.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: I really don't see the problem: just STOP using the JIT when the emulated 68k machine has disabled the cache. So, switching back to full emulation (interpretative mode). OR clear the JIT buffers if the cache is enabled and the 68k code has cleared it (because it has made some changes on the existing code). Simple, no? I think ideally its good idea to use the MMU to notify the JIT compiler to flush a code,

Yes, if you want to better optimize the emulation infrastructure.

However everything becomes much more complicated.
Quote:

but problem with doing that is that HUNK format contains data and code intermixed.

Which is like may other binary formats, ELF included.
Quote:

(It’s a shame AmigaOS3.2 does not support ELF),

ELF is alien to the Amiga ecosystem and it's not needed: HUNK is much simpler and needs nothing else.
Quote:

I guess CacheClearU, CacheClearE function can theoretically flush JIT cache, but I guess Petunia does not do that.

I don't know how Petunia works, but I expect that it intercept those cases: to me it's obvious, given the scope of this tool and of those APIs.
Quote:

Automatically switching between JIT and Interpreted, be tricky because can’t know if code was modifying itself. Before you actually run it, in that case I think it need to start interpreted and run code few times, before it understands that part is not modified and safe to JIT.

Why? You need to execute the code just once (which is obvious: at least one time is the minimum! ) and then you can generate the JITed code. Finally, you protect the page of the original code with the MMU, to intercept writes to it, so that you're able to cache self-modifying code.

Again, the things get much more complicated, but that's needed if you want the maximum performance.

The only problem with performances is about code which is writing on data which is located on the same pages. So, you've a 4kB page (let's say) which contains both code and data, but even if the code is NOT self-modifying the page is continuously hit with writes requests and the MMU generates the proper fault, calling the handler. This can produce a tremendous drop in performance.
Even those cases can be intercepted and handled in a smart way but, again, this will further complicates the emulation ecosystem.

At the end it's up to how much smart is the guy which is writing the JITer AND how much time can dedicate to make it better.
Quote:

Dc.b and ds.b etch are not machine code, its compiler / preprocessor switch to tell compiler here comes some bytes. So you can’t know if there is any data any place, and you don’t know the length of data, this IRA and other dis-compilers often have problem decompile code, as what is code, is determined by the branches and code paths. Not by its location.

That's really not a problem with emulators / JITes, since you've to execute the original code at least once, as I've said before.

What you're describing is a big problem only when you want to completely (pre)compile a binary AoT (Ahead-of-Time). AoT gives you the great advantage of even completely getting rid of an emulator and JITer: you compile it once, even optimizing the code (IF you've enough time to perform global-time optimizations. Again, it's a complicated task) and you can execute the, now, native code at maximum speed and without allocating a lot of resources for the emulation/JIT instrustructure.

But, there's the problem that you mentioned...
Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @ppcamiga1 Quote: 68k is unimportant. amiga software is made mostly in c/c++. That’s sadly not the case, 68K software is written in many languages, Assembler, C/++, Amiga-E, Pascal, Blitz Basic II, Amos Basic. if where to guess: Assembler 50%, C/C++ 30%, Blitz Basic II 11%, AmosPro 7%, Amiga-E 2% Even if project is written in C/C++ there is often assembler parts inlined. (Anything that did not originate from the Amiga, but from Linux will be 99% likely be C/C++ code.)

Exactly. As usual, THE Parrot has no clue at all of Amiga worked and how people developed code for it.
Quote:

Quote: chipset is unimportant. Not really, all 680x0 mod players use the chipset. (system frendly or not). Old paint prograns use the blitter. (Of course some software use external mod players.)

Indeed. There are several o.s. friendly applications which can still directly used the hardware (AFTER that they have correctly asked the o.s. to own them).

Again, THE Parrot doesn't know at all of what he's talking about : it's a desperate case...


@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @ppcamiga1 The difference between you and me is that I'm an actual developer and I've worked on 68K, PPC, x86, x64, ARM. I've even done some MIPS and 88K in the past. So you'll forgive me when I call out your post for the steaming pile of horsesh*t that it is and dismiss your opinion entirely out of hand because you are stark raving mad.

No, keep it short!

The difference between you and him is that you're sane...


@Wol

Quote:

Wol wrote: @Bosanac FFS ! How do you program a Computer if you are NonBinary ? Wol.

LOL

The funny thing about these “NG” Amigas is that the OS, the so called AmigaOS, is inadequate to fully support the hardware. They are primarily Linux systems.

_________________
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@agami


>Or to put it another way, it would be like stating that a particular single-driver speaker is the worlds >most powerful Mono Speaker, in a world where Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and spatial audio driver-array >smart speakers, are the norm.

That would be claiming the x1000 would be a Commodore Amiga. I never said this. I said it is an AMIGA.

And this is not too unusual. For example two chats last year. One was with a guy who is more on PiStorm side but has Amigas of all kinds. I asked him "What is the complete list of your Amigas anyways ?" He said "I got a A3000, two A1200, one of them with PiStorm, one more PiStorm system and a Sam" (list went on a bit still). Nowhere would he claim the Sam would not be an Amiga.

I also remember a chat with an Amiga reseller where he asked me if a particular project of me would be "just for PowerPC Amigas, or also for 68k Amigas".

>So I am not denying that A-EON's X abominations are the most powerful PPC machines capable >of running AmigaOS 4.

Remove "PPC" from this sentence and I am agreeing. They are both the most powerful PPC machines capable of running AmigaOS 4 and also the most powerful Amigas right now (sure, if PiStorm could run ARM native code and provide a 3D HW solution this would change I assume).

@cdimaura

>Subject was the NDA, NOT people that want to buy those games.

An NDA is not a big deal. What do you think how many NDAs I sign at my main job. Reacting shocked to an NDA is just another way for certain people to insult me and what I am doing.

I am fine with you people saying it is not an Amiga FOR YOU. But do not make it sound like a fact.

Well, the opinions in this thread are starting to be too abstruse for me. I will be signing off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

I think this forum changed since 20 years ago, and not to the better. If it would not have been such a great site in the past, I would not have even bothered replying anymore. Well, I will stop that now after realizing what this has become.

MagicSN

Last edited by MagicSN on 08-Dec-2023 at 07:12 AM.
Last edited by MagicSN on 08-Dec-2023 at 07:11 AM.

@MagicSN

Quote:

I think this forum changed since 20 years ago, and not to the better. If it would not have been such a great site in the past, I would not have even bothered replying anymore. Well, I will stop that now after realizing what this has become.

What? You are the victim here?

Look, everyone heee has been civil. Everyone has been inclusive and agreeable
but YOU are the person coming here and insulting people telling them their amigas are not real amigas and when we ask you to please stop offending and insulting us
it is suddenly "oh AWN has become such a bad hate site".

Seriously? You have zero self reflection? Zero?
Look, we are all amigans, please stop this bullshit "only os4 are real amigas".

Do you seriously not understand that this alienates you from everyone else and this kind of behaviour is why EVERY other amiga grouping gets a less than positive opinion about you and the rest of hyperion/os4?
Do you seriously not understand that this is why there is animosiity between everyone else and hyp/os4?
This is the reason and stop doing what you are doing and try to behave more inclusively.

At this point I think you are just trying to troll us to then go back and tell people, loom how bad these people are.

geen_naam wrote:
Quote:

Yes, this site is now home to the fundamentalists that only consider a Commodore Amiga a real amiga. Everything not made by commodore is an abomination. Like a Jehovah's Witness, they are waiting for Commodore and 68k to return to earth. In short, Moobunny V2.0.

That went from 0-80 pretty fast.

But the thing is, in one side you have an off the shelf computer that failed to mark a dent in the computer space, using an OS made out of spite, and the other you have a computer used by millions, and which for better or worse has left a mark in computer landscape. Both are now death platforms, based on no longer available CPUs, but if you analogy somehow hold I guess it should be backwards, as the holy defenders of the trademark.

Past has not be kind to the future set past post Commodore, and failing to acknowledge it put you more in the blind zealot camp then those who 'are waiting for commodore to return to earth.'

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@geen_naam

The only "real" Amigas are the commodore machines. That's not "fundamentalism" or a slight against NG systems, it's just what it is. It's not about brand, prejudice or anything else, it's just an objective fact. We live in an increasingly bizarre world of subjective and personal "truths", so I stick to facts.

I'm sure if I had a fully decked out x1000 I'd love it. But I don't and I likely never will own another PPC machine. I don't believe it's the right direction for the platform, no matter how much sense it may have made in the past.

I had an A1XE and it was a lot of fun to mess around with and develop on. It was probably that which sped up it's demise as I was constantly swapping graphics cards between 4 different models.

In the final analysis, there's no need to get butthurt because a machine is or is not an Amiga. It doesn't have to be an Amiga to "tick all the boxes" from a sentimental or subjective experience qperspective.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@Karlos

Yes, but also, if people enjoy their system, commodore amiga or other, it is mostly in friendship.
It is OS4 people like MagicSN that are the odd ones out that create issues.

I have never seen AROS people tell MorphOS people they are fake amigans. Instead I see Aros and Morphos folks celebrating eachother, "you are also an amigan, cool" regardless of whether they are true commodore amigans or not.

I never see commodore amiga fans telling pistorm32 fans "you are not real amigans". No, what I see is both saying to eachothers, "oh, wow your stuff is so cool".

I never see morphos fans telling Vampire folks that vampire is fake amiga, instead I see them celebrating and "wow, lets see if I can get my software running on your epic platform."


That is how it works between the myriad of amiga, compatible or amigalike platforms.

Then there is MagicSN and team OS4 that just keeps shitting on everyone else and telling them they are not real amigans. And you are surprised when you get a negative reaction to your shit you spew?
I tell you what Elon told Bob Iger last week. Do that. It you can not interact or be part of the community and respect us other aigans, then Elons message to Iger is our message to you.

@geen_naam

Quote:

Given your avatar, it has been your "camp" that has been responsible for Moobunny V1.0. So don't play a victim here.

Oh sweetheart, what camp would that be? If anything you would see a ppc computer. So it's quite at odds with what your spewing...

Quote:

And despite popular believe, PPC CPUs today are still in production and actually in active development

you're being quite delusional here...

Quote:

There's no sensible desktop ARM platform available yet.

For AmigaOS? It runs Linux but it ain't a sensible desktop platform to be used? FFS
Quote:

I don't care about 3 because AmigaNG is my hobby. Not my religion.

It surely doesn't look that way.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@geen_naam

Quote:

even the Chinese are developing new Power(PC) CPUs for server and desktop as we speak.

Yeah, I think you are making shit up at this point.
I would like to see links to reputable sites to back that up. You have links to back this up right? Becasue it sounds highly speculative to me.

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote: @Karlos Roflol. The only real car is a ford. Do you even understand how ridiculous narrow minded you sound?

Your car analogy is flawed: Do you even understand how ridiculously incapable of basic comparison evaluation you sound?

To correct it, the only real Ford is a Ford. There are many other cars.

The only real Amiga is an Amiga. There are many other computers.

Is that clear or would a diagram help?

Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 10:39 AM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@geen_naam

You have absolutely no rebuttal of the facts, so you revert to personal attacks. What is this, the BAF/SMURF wars? Grow up.

I am sorry that the fact that PPC NG systems are not Amiga by any objective measure triggers you. It doesn't (and should not) make any difference to end users. Subjectively, your PPC system can be to you whatever you want it to be. Live your "truth" all you want, just don't get bent out of shape when other people don't share it.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@geen_naam

Quote:

So a Next Generation Amiga is a Next Generation Amiga.

That's your definition. To illustrate why it doesn't work, we'll reuse your car analogy:

My Toyota uses the same fuel and drives on the same roads as the Jaguar E Type and has many improved features and is way way more efficient. By every measure it's a Next Generation Jaguar E Type!

Except it isn't.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

@geen_naam

Quote:

Because you bend every fact to fit your narrative

And what narrative is that? I don't have a narrative. I just put the facts in order and they tell their own story.

You accuse me of fundamentalism because I call a car a car, a Ford a Ford, an Amiga an Amiga or an Amiga compatible an Amiga compatible. They are different classifications of varying specificity.

A Ford is a subset of Car. An Amiga and an Amiga-compatible are both subsets of Computer.

Tell me, what is fundamentalist about this?

Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:15 AM.
Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:12 AM.

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