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Bosanac 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 11:40:00
#361 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 255
From: Unknown

@geen_naam

As the Dutch are prone to saying to anyone who points out facts they don’t like: Als het je niet bevalt, waarom vertrek je dan niet?

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pixie 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 11:41:08
#362 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3120
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam
Quote:
Is this the moment where I should reply to you with zorram?

Tell me you're stupid without telling me you're stupid...

Quote:
Hard to make a blind man see what is right in front of him. So the NXP rep was lying to me the other day when he was presenting their new products, right? I cannot buy NXP powerPC processors from Digikey, mouser futureelectronics.... But I don't blame you. Facts are often denied with opinions these days. You just have to voice your opion as loud as possible to your audience here.

If in this day and age one is advoking for PPC isn't some kind of maniacal zealotry I don't know what is... presenting a defacto fringe processor as somehow a viable processor surely put you in such camp.

Quote:
My watch runs linux. Hardly a desktop platform. But what you you know, right? You're just here for the beer and burgers.

Please enlighten me what your precious AmigaOS4 does more then the distro of a Raspberry Pi, go on... I'll wait

Last edited by pixie on 08-Dec-2023 at 11:44 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 11:46:18
#363 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Karlos

Ahaha, you only make it worse for yourself. But I have no mercy

I sense that you are fond of Jaguars. (Not judging here).


I have no emotional investment in it whatsoever. I just used it as a highly recognised brand and a model that is older than my car.

Explain how being objective makes one fundamentalist, or carry on name calling. It doesn't bother me, every slight you make is another moment I have my opinions confirmed.

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pixie 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 12:09:08
#364 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3120
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Bosanac

Je zou best een Nederlander kunnen zijn. Want de meesten kunnen ook geen Nederlands (meer).

Maar nee, we zeggen niet: 'Waarom vertrek je dan niet?' We zeggen: 'dan ga je toch weg.' Of iets minder vleiend: 'Dan rot je toch op.'

Maar er is ook een gezegde met 'zonder slag of stoot' erin. Dus verdiep je maar iets beter in de Nederlander voordat je mij op mijn nationaliteit wenst aan te spreken.


Why, you surely have no problems inferring from others... that's a bit hypocrite of you

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Wol 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 12:18:29
#365 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1003
From: UK.......Sol 3.

@Karlos

Let's widen the "Debate" a bit,

Is StarTrek TNG, still StarTrek ??

_________________
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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 12:25:07
#366 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Bosanac

Je zou best een Nederlander kunnen zijn. Want de meesten kunnen ook geen Nederlands (meer).

Maar nee, we zeggen niet: 'Waarom vertrek je dan niet?' We zeggen: 'dan ga je toch weg.' Of iets minder vleiend: 'Dan rot je toch op.'

Maar er is ook een gezegde met 'zonder slag of stoot' erin. Dus verdiep je maar iets beter in de Nederlander voordat je mij op mijn nationaliteit wenst aan te spreken.


Nationality has entered the chat...

So, I am Next Generation Dutch (some bigoted people may say "English"). I am Dutch through and through. I mean, I don't speak the same language as "Classic Dutch" people (they speak Dutch, I speak English, the improved evolution and natural successor). I don't live there/have ever visited; why would I, it's old and a flood risk. I don't care about their historic institutions or landmarks or any of their other obsolete hardware.

You don't have to be born in The Netherlands, speak Dutch or have Classic Dutch parentage to be Dutch! You don't have to live there or have ever even visited or ever intend to. Do you know how narrow-minded and fundamentalist it sounds to suggest otherwise?

Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:57 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 12:27 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 12:48:01
#367 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@agami

Sometime in the 2'000's I began buying Mac hardware as an interest on the second hand market at an Amiga meeting. It was the closest to the Amiga, compared to as a cousin, and was still going places. I began with a black PowerBook running OS9 PPC with a swappable floppy and CD drive. My experience was that it was very Amiga like. Auto detect drive, a RAM disk and multitasking ability. Now, it was said that it didn't have proper multitasking ability, but in my experience I couldn't even tell. Supposedly cooperative multitasking, like Windows 3.1, but it made Windows look like a pooped out dogs breakfast. I played Heretic on it and Netscape for browsing as well as Explorer at times. It was was good to learn about the other side. I mainly bought it as a backup for practical use like internet. I'd used PC's and had some donors but only booted Windows if I really had a need too. I'd never used a PC as a "personal computer".

I did have a chance to pick up a BlizzardPPC on special but let it go. I somewhat regret it as I was a big Amiga fan. But it was one cost after another. At this point I'd already spent $2,500 for the total A1200 setup which had a basic DKB1240/030@40, 32MB RAM and a SCSI Tower of Power for drives. The Blizzard really needed a tower and I didn't like hacks. I already had a tower, which cost me $750 with a CD drive, but it wasn't designed to hold an Amiga and was just one ugly looking drive case. So I'd need to replace it and relocate the Amiga to upgrade the CPU and get some decent RTG over the too slow AGA. As you can see one upgrade needs another. So my A1200 must have been the slowest computer in the street. I really took it as far as I could and it had outlived it;s usefulness.

In the meantime I next bought an iBook G3 500. This lasted many years. It had a tanks 3d game I liked. And the Amiga game Payback 3d was on there! At this point it was where the Amiga should have been. PPC, OpenGL, 32 bit gfx. Around 2003 or so I bought the AmigaOne XE Earlybird special. I recall OS4 came out in 2004 for those who bought this model. It was a different decade but I managed to pay less for that setup, around $2,000 for the build, than what I totally paid for my A1200 build. The board itself was almost twice the cost of a BlizzardPPC. Who knows, I might have kept that setup longer and not bought the XE, since any PPC Amiga could run OS4.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 12:49:23
#368 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:
Yes, that is actually true, a lot a new dutch people are not actually born in the Netherlands. They don't even speak perfectly Dutch and might never do so. Let's call them "not fully backwards compatible" in this context. They don't even have all the apparent characteristics of classic Dutch people. yet, they are recognized as Dutch. Like +8 million since the 80s.


Am I Dutch?

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pixie 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:20:52
#369 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3120
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam

Quote:
Are are you referring to the fact that I used you Efika/ MorphOS Moobunny connecting to expose your Calimero behaviour?

See, how you can sometimes find logic all by yourself? Why don't you try to do it more often?

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:20:53
#370 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Amiga users are a superset of NG users. Show me an NG user that came to the platform with no prior Amiga experience. 68K Amiga users outnumber all NG users combined, even if you made the arbitrary dividing line that if you had NG, you are an NG user and not a 68K one when in fact you might use both.


I would use both. People only become NG users because of the Amiga. Except for those on the fringe that write tech reviews perhaps. If a million A500's were sold that would outnumber those who bough an A1. If those that used an A500 didn't leave it at that, and went on to buy A1200 or A4000 for example, then that would be a market that became NG. Some people only knew the Amiga as A500 and never had another, but these days it's less likely to stay in the dark, unless your were a A500 fad user who wasn't into computers.

Quote:
And of course, you are the sole arbitrator of what counts as an Amiga and who counts as an Amiga user, so untermensch on virtual Amiga systems must not be counted. I have several classic systems., but I depend on emulation because none of them are currently in a state I'd risk. My OS4 machine is dead and I cannot justify the ludicrous expense to replace it with something more recent, on which to run the same trivially small catalogue of unique software and ports or applications that already run better on hardware I do have.


To me what counts as Amiga, or an Amiga computer really, would be the Amiga models provided by Commodore. I too use emulation, but mostly for convenience, since I need to set an Amiga up to use it. My A1/XE is still going, but only gets out for beta testing, since it too must be set up. My X1000 gets used the most as it sits on a desk. I wouldn't call them an Amiga computer as such, as in real Amiga which is a synonym for classic Amiga. But I would call them Amiga as in the image of Amiga and inspired by Amiga, since 20 years ago that was the intention. And back then Amiga people were interested. In any case, they were called "AmigaOne", what ever that was meant to mean, so not exactly Amiga. I know this gives Amiga users hang ups who don't want Amiga in the title at all. But I bet if an Amithlon PC was produced with Amiga on the title they wouldn't complain. We must also remember that the first AmigaOne was meant to be an Amiga accelerator but we got ripped.

Quote:
Why does OS3.x/68k continue to be developed while OS4/PPC is stagnant? What better indication of NG is a dead horse is there?


It's a good question but also strange circumstances. Both are developed under the banner of Hyperion so how can one be alive while the other isn't? I would say NG is only dead because the OS is held back and the one chance for cheap hardware has been lost.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:24:01
#371 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
I play Streets of Rage 4 via Boot Camp so yes x86-64 has its uses!


Oh I see. When you said PPC Amiga I thought you meant an Amiga, as in a real Amiga or whatever it gets called now--with a PPC card. Otherwise, that would be an AmigaOne, which isn't an Amiga.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:26:00
#372 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Present a consistent argument, please.

I never once said Amiga OS 4 was not Amiga OS, I asserted the exact opposite, because it's a verifiable fact that OS 4.x builds on top of the OS 3.x source repository. I know this, in part, because when my A1XE died, it was while I was working on drivers for OS 4.x. I don't need anyone else's validation to know this.

This discussion isn't about the operating system, it's about the hardware. The Draco ran Amiga OS3.1, but it wasn't an Amiga. It was a compatible.

The X1000 (along with every G3 and G4 predecessor) runs Amiga OS4.1, but it isn't an Amiga either. It's also a compatible.

The Draco and NG share the "compatible" classification as neither machine can directly run any Amiga software that depends on the native Amiga chipset. NG machines with enough CPU power can, of course, run UAE for those.

Now again. I, as a chunk of biological hardware, have no direct connection to The Netherlands. I don't speak the language, I know little of the culture, but I believe I am Dutch because I can do lots of things Classic Dutch people do. I can even JIT the language using google translate.

Am I Dutch?

Last edited by Karlos on 08-Dec-2023 at 01:27 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:34:02
#373 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
No, I put the word "Amiga" in quotes for the benefit of those who thi k their PPC equipped PC is an Amiga. It isn't, it's a PC that happens to have a non-mainstram CPU.


Oh no, the PC wars again. The games market can help us again. So as we know once it was easy. The top three I remember were DOS, Mac and Amiga.

DOS exclusively referred to an x86 PC, usually with a SoundBlaster and VGA graphics. Mac and Amiga was 68K but not the same machine.

Later I recall, after Windows became common, PC began to refer to x86 with Windows. Mac referred to a PPC machine. And Amiga dropped out.

PC may expand to personal computer, so the Amiga is a PC as in personal computer. But not a PC as in PC. Calling the Amiga an Amiga PC or PC is weird and doesn't look right. It is an Amiga personal computer, not an Amiga PC. PC may expand to personal computer but when reduced to an initialism has a different meaning. It must always be expanded when the context is an Amiga computer.

If you install AmigaOS on a PC, does mean that PC is an Amiga?

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:35:33
#374 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@MagicSN

Quote:

I have to admit I never heard of Windows NT available on a PPC Hardware, and if it is it is the exception which proves the rule then


If you install Windows NT PPC on a Mac or PPC computer, does that turn it into a PC?

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:41:13
#375 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hypex

Quote:
If you install AmigaOS on a PC, does mean that PC is an Amiga?


I did that. It's called Amithlon. Like the Draco, it's not an Amiga, it's a compatible.

Why does this matter? It was still awesome.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:56:59
#376 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I always hated that Amiga did use standard PC parts, that can’t just pop in normal dim ram, or a normal floppy drive, it was bullshit you need to have special floppy drive all needed to do is have dedicated motor signal, to etch driver. And drive can have worked without modifications.


You mean didn't use standard parts? Well, actually, it did really but kept using obsolete standard parts. The floppy drive used a Shugart bus which existed along with PC interface and was very similar apart from a few lines used differently. They used the same type of cabling. This only became a problem when the PC standard became de facto and outlived Shugart. Amigas kept using the Shugart bus and Commodore didn't update the interface for existing floppy hardware. In fact, at least for a DD PC drive, it can be used as a drop in replacement when connected through a PC to Shugart bus adapter. It takes just a few logic chips for the conversion so best would have been to include the logic on board. Remember the Escom A1200 floppy?

The RAM. Well I do recall there were things like GVP RAM and special zip RAM. Depending on board. This was obviously the hardware setup of the RAM. My DKB1240 in my A1200, had the first RAM chips I installed in an Amiga, and it took standard 72 pin simms. The hardest part of buying this RAM, only since I bought it second hand at a swap meet, was convincing the guy I only needed one. Because PC needed two at once to work and he really didn't want to sell lone. Lol.

Last edited by Hypex on 08-Dec-2023 at 03:16 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 13:59:03
#377 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pixie

Quote:
Amiga one upwards??


Yes. The only way is up!

Although they've remade Flatliners now. Or given it a sequel and reused an actor. Gee, the parallels are amazing, a movie about the AmigaOne.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 14:07:45
#378 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Again, you are confusing software with hardware. Amiga OS4 is software. It runs on Amigas (those that have an appropriate PPC CPU expansions) and compatibles.

Which of those compatibles was purpose built to run OS4 without any modifications (other than drivers) and not to boot Linux first?

Your argument distils down to "if it runs Amiga OS it's an Amiga". That's fine and all, but every machine that can run UAE is also an Amiga by extension. Including this smartphone.

I suppose it's in keeping with Amiga Anywhere...

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cdimauro 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 14:13:15
#379 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3649
From: Germany

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
The funny thing about these “NG” Amigas is that the OS, the so called AmigaOS, is inadequate to fully support the hardware. They are primarily Linux systems.

Was the ethernet driver finally delivered for the X1000?

Of course, pretending to use the other CPU core after more than a decade long has beaten Duke Nukem Forever...


@MagicSN

Quote:

MagicSN wrote:
@agami


>Or to put it another way, it would be like stating that a particular single-driver speaker is the worlds >most powerful Mono Speaker, in a world where Dolby Atmos, DTS:X, and spatial audio driver-array >smart speakers, are the norm.

That would be claiming the x1000 would be a Commodore Amiga.

Something doesn't necessarily need to be made by Commodore to be called Amiga. "Obviously" (!).
Quote:
I never said this. I said it is an AMIGA.

And again, like a Parrot, you continue to fail because I've proven that you're completely wrong on that. And, of course, you never brought a single FACT (AKA official documentation) which states something different.

However we already have The Parrot in this forum, so the maximum that you can get is the second place in the list of the most active Parrots.
Quote:
And this is not too unusual. For example two chats last year. One was with a guy who is more on PiStorm side but has Amigas of all kinds. I asked him "What is the complete list of your Amigas anyways ?" He said "I got a A3000, two A1200, one of them with PiStorm, one more PiStorm system and a Sam" (list went on a bit still). Nowhere would he claim the Sam would not be an Amiga.

I also remember a chat with an Amiga reseller where he asked me if a particular project of me would be "just for PowerPC Amigas, or also for 68k Amigas".

So, someone called whatever he wanted as "Amiga" and then this supports your claims? Seriously?

Definitions at the Internet age: I've read it on a site, so it must be true!
Quote:
>So I am not denying that A-EON's X abominations are the most powerful PPC machines capable >of running AmigaOS 4.

Remove "PPC" from this sentence and I am agreeing. They are both the most powerful PPC machines capable of running AmigaOS 4 and also the most powerful Amigas right now

"Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth" (cit.)
Quote:
(sure, if PiStorm could run ARM native code and provide a 3D HW solution this would change I assume).

PiStorm isn't an Amiga, rather Amiga-like (part of).
Quote:
@cdimaura

>Subject was the NDA, NOT people that want to buy those games.

An NDA is not a big deal. What do you think how many NDAs I sign at my main job. Reacting shocked to an NDA is just another way for certain people to insult me and what I am doing.

Who insulted you for that? Do you understand that my statements regarding NDAs did NOT talk specifically about you, but they were targeting the NDAs themselves?
Quote:
I am fine with you people saying it is not an Amiga FOR YOU. But do not make it sound like a fact.

Actually I'm the only one which reported FACTs corroborated by OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION which certified them.

So, when talking about what's an Amiga, I can do it completely removing for me, since what I report is a pure FACT.

You, on the other hand, are continuously parroting the same non-sense and NEVER brought even a single sentence coming from any official documentation which could sustain it.

I've requested it, but you've ignored it: guess why... because you can NOT provide anything, since your is a pure lie.
Quote:
Well, the opinions in this thread are starting to be too abstruse for me. I will be signing off.

Ah, yeah: since your blind faith is in danger and you're NOT able to rebut the statements of the infidels then you decide to escape.

Nothing new...
Quote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)

Why you've reported the link which describes your parallel universe? I already knew it.
Quote:
I think this forum changed since 20 years ago, and not to the better.

Only for blind fanatical can say this, because you see your faith under attack.
Quote:
If it would not have been such a great site in the past, I would not have even bothered replying anymore. Well, I will stop that now after realizing what this has become.

MagicSN

Np, nobody will miss the "holy" words of Steffen Häuser, priest of the OS4 church...


@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@MagicSN

Quote:
I think this forum changed since 20 years ago, and not to the better. If it would not have been such a great site in the past, I would not have even bothered replying anymore. Well, I will stop that now after realizing what this has become


Yes, this site is now home to the fundamentalists that only consider a Commodore Amiga a real amiga. Everything not made by commodore is an abomination.

Well, actually and taking a look at the FACTs it's exactly the case.

Unless you can bring some FACTs (not: "I've read it on Internet", like Steffen has written) from any other official documentation, of course. Something which I've already ask but "strangely" nobody is bringing here. Guess why...
Quote:
Like a Jehovah's Witness, they are waiting for Commodore and 68k to return to earth.

In short, Moobunny V2.0.

ROFL: how completely overturn the reality...

Anyway and since you're still here, it looks that you like it...
Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@pixie

And despite popular believe, PPC CPUs today are still in production and actually in active development (E.g. NXP recently released new e200 core based automotive PPCs) .

New? It doesn't look like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_e200

The e200 core is developed from the MPC5xx family processors, which in turn is derived from the MPC8xx core in the PowerQUICC SoC processors.

So, they are recycling the same cores. No new cores were developed.
Quote:
Unlike PPC MACs, (the MorphoOS way) or 68k CPUs

Which are still sold, like the above cores.
Quote:
(The fundamentalist way).

You don't have to show each time that you have problems accepting the reality: it's already quite evident.
Quote:
Thanks to US policy, even the Chinese are developing new Power(PC) CPUs for server and desktop as we speak.

Even IBM is still developing new POWER cores...
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Personally I am not married with PowerPC. ARM would be fine as well. There are only minor problems to overcome:
1. There's no sensible desktop ARM platform available yet. (No, Apple hardware is not a sensible option. And their Mx cores lack big endian anyways)

Then take a look at the latest from Qualcomm.
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2. It will take another two decades to make it happen

Well, considered the the Amiga o.s. port to PowerPC was never finished, most probably two decades will not be enough...
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3. Another split will result in even less users

Aging will naturally reduce them anyway. So, it would not be a port to another architecture that will improve the post-Amiga situation.

The main problem is the Amiga itself, that cannot be modernized to expand the audience. It's retro, son of the "hack" mindset of the time, and doomed to disappear in all its "flavours".
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I don't care about 3 because AmigaNG is my hobby. Not my religion.

ROFL Oh, yeah, I trust you!

Especially when you talk about non-existent entity: the Amiga "NG".
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geen_naam wrote:
@Karlos

Whahaha, you should really stop now. Every twist and turn you try lead to the inevitable. But here you are:

If you are born out of Dutch parents (Like amigaOS4 was born out of AmigaOS3.1), you will be recognized as Dutch and you can go to your nearest Dutch embassy and get a Dutch passport. Even if you don't speak a word Dutch and never have been there.

Just one note on this, because the rest is coming from a broken record.

That's the only right thing that you've written here. And you know why? Because you're correctly talking about the Amiga o.s. and its (from version 3.1) port to some PowerPC platform.

Nothing to say about that, because it's all about the operating system.

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Bosanac 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 8-Dec-2023 14:20:42
#380 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-May-2022
Posts: 255
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:
Am I Dutch?


If a half-Kraut half-Indonesian who bleaches his hair to fool the simple minded low-class low-earning low-achieving Dutch voters that he's native then who is Mega De Groot to say you aren't Dutch?

You'd get double immigration points if you marry a Hungarian born Turkish mortad.

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