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kolla 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 18-Jan-2024 19:20:06
#701 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2882
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Quote:

I don't know why the Mini is so popular.


Because they sold a ton of them, so they are quite available and affordable. I have three, all running Linux, one dabbling MorphOS sometimes - and yes, big endian Linux.

Quote:
But I never had one, never knew anyone who had one, and only had iBooks myself. So a laptop is better target for me. Also since the lesser PineBook failed an iBook makes an obvious target for the long desired laptop.


More complicated hardware than mac mini, and the displays are often failing, broken keyboards etc.

Quote:
I've always been interested in running OSX and MorphOS on my X1000 and if Qemu would help. But I'm not interested if there is a lot of work compiling it myself and the end result is emulated anyway.


I compile all myself... what's the point of open source if you don't use the sources? :)

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 18-Jan-2024 19:45:00
#702 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2561
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:

Well, the AmigaOne XE and X1000 have desktop class PPC,


The P6T "desktop class"?

It was only used in embedded and might have made an good enough option for a 2006-7 PowerBook, but for "desktop" it was already outclassed on release.

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Hammer 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 18-Jan-2024 22:44:06
#703 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5273
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
some people don't accept reality.
aga in 256 colors is just dumb framebuffer nothing more.
no reasons to keep it.

The reason for AGA is to run retro WHDLoad OCS/AGA games and apps that hit the metal.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2024 at 10:54 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 18-Jan-2024 23:00:16
#704 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5273
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
some people don't accept reality.
aga in 256 colors is just dumb framebuffer nothing more.
no reasons to keep it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbWGAFIkA5E
Unreleased Amiga RPG 3D game Quests Of Nargoth running in AGA's HAM8 (compressed 18 bits 262,144 colors instead of 8 bit 256 colors).

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2024 at 11:01 PM.

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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 4:15:54
#705 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2561
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Wow you found an example where AGA goes down to not even being a dumb framebuffeer

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 9:24:14
#706 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Wasn't there a Polish game that did HAM6 and HAM8 modes too? Ubek or something.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 9:30:10
#707 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Also see https://youtu.be/wv3OYbADkJQ?si=N9Vf2X0kLFViBDG2

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AmiRich 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 17:53:46
#708 ]
Member
Joined: 31-Aug-2023
Posts: 19
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

some people don't accept reality.
PPC is just junk tech nothing more.
no reasons to keep it.

Seriously bro, PPC is dead and has been for years. If you do a web search for "PPC" these days you'll go through pages of top hits relating to "pay-per-click" marketing before you ever find anything about a CPU.

Time to accept that OCS, AGA, 68K et. al. are all equally as valid today as PPC because all are in the grave.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 18:31:53
#709 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@AmiRich

68K and PPC are not equal in death. The 68K's grave is a large, well maintained mausoleum with flocks of well wishers paying their respects every day. The PPC grave is more like an unmarked plot, filled with quicklime
.

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OneTimer1 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 19-Jan-2024 19:07:05
#710 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 973
From: Unknown

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:

68K and PPC are not equal in death. The 68K's grave is a large, well maintained mausoleum with flocks of well wishers paying their respects every day.


You forgot the Coldfire and some (IMHO still existing 68k MCUs), the Coldfire seemed to be done by a team that never read and 68k manual and NXP is going to ARM now.

If we would follow, we should switch to i.MX8 instead of RaPi on the PiStorm.

https://www.nxp.com/products/processors-and-microcontrollers/arm-processors/i-mx-applications-processors/i-mx-8-applications-processors:IMX8-SERIES

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 12:49:32
#711 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Strange how easily that substitution worked.


LOL.

90's Amiga fans:
The PC is crap, it can't multitask, segmented memory sucks.

2020's Amiga fans:
The PPC is crap, AmigaOS doesn't do multicore, 32 bit memory limit sucks.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 13:02:03
#712 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kolla

Quote:
More complicated hardware than mac mini, and the displays are often failing, broken keyboards etc.


It may be but MorphOS has managed to support them well. Mine are in good condition, well the ones I have that work fine. Unfortunately one of my best examples, and also the smallest, has an Nvidia so unusable for MorphOS. The rest are only unusable because I broke them when I ran over one and wrecked the HDD of another.

Quote:
I compile all myself... what's the point of open source if you don't use the sources? :)


It's time consuming. I spend enough time working on my own projects. Plus it doesn't help people who aren't so technically minded and having a solution with a GUI working out of the box would help.

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Hypex 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 13:31:52
#713 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 11200
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Kronos

Quote:
The P6T "desktop class"?


It had 64 bit as well as AltiVec and adhered to Power ISA v2.04. The last desktop PPC Apple used when they briefly moved to 64 bit, the G5, adheres to Power ISA v2.01. So it's certainly capable for being used in a desktop environment.

Quote:
It was only used in embedded and might have made an good enough option for a 2006-7 PowerBook, but for "desktop" it was already outclassed on release.


Outclassed by what? I am comparing like for like, so PPC with PPC. As to Apple, strangely, they just moved to 64 bit with the G5, then decided to move to 32 bit Intel which didn't make sense. Why wouldn't they move to 64 bit Intel? It's as if they moved to an inferior address space, after just moving to a superior address space, because the CPU was more popular.

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Kronos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 14:12:03
#714 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2561
From: Unknown

@Hypex

680x0 were 16/32bit CPUs mostly used for embedded while many desktop PCs still used 16bit addresses over an 8 or 16bit bus, so being 64bit at a time when it hardly mattered for desktop is no argument.

Performance wise the X1000 turned out to be on par with my 2x1.8GHz QuickSilver G4 (tested under Linux) which suffered from suboptimal RAM interface (for a motherboard from 2001) and it for sure wasn't competing against what x86 did at that time.

Apple did not move to Intel for being popular, they moved because it delivered so much extra performance at any given power envelope.

Overall the designation "embedded" or "desktop" is rather random as so many chips clearly targeted at one could still be very capable in the other.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 15:21:33
#715 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Serious question.

Does anyone actually hate PPC? For me it just doesn't conjure any strong emotions at all. It was exciting back in the mid 90's, it was fun and it was even useful. It had promise. Ultimately it failed. It doesn't give me the same feeling of nostalgia that 68K does, but should I ever get any of my PPC machines back into a servicable state, maybe that might change. But no matter how warm and fuzzy I might feel for it, I can't justify it beyond sourcing old hardware to run it on. That pretty much restricts me to Mac HW running MorphOS and/or getting the old A1 fixed and BPPC machine serviced.

I do find PiStorm exciting, in much the same way that the Phase5 PPC boards were back when they were new.

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pixie 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 16:23:02
#716 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3120
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Karlos

I had a Blizzard PPC + BVision back then and was great fun, got RTG and a few software here and there who took advantage of it that make it worthwhile. Now you can have a Pistorm, a tide that rise all boats, do RTG and with time might even do wifi. Still PPC never went nowhere, I don't get all the attachment to it. I would love to see some of the GUI improvements from 4.0(composition) backported so that on a capable machine such Pistorm with 2d GFX accelerated drivers or WinUAE it could shine. For example, I rather use Google docs because it has a nice font rendering engine to that of open office just for the sake of it, despite being way simpler, but I don't need much else ,so for me its fine

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michalsc 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 17:29:16
#717 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 377
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:
Does anyone actually hate PPC?


Not me :) Otherwise I wouldn't port AROS to SAM440 and to EfikaPPC. I wouldn't read (and have ordered paper version) all the PPC manuals and wouldn't have studied this architecture to write quite a lot of low-level stuff for it.

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Karlos 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 17:54:29
#718 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4402
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@michalsc

Indeed. I still have the 603e and 604e manuals somewhere, they were pretty chonk. Probably eaten by moths in the loft somewhere.

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fishy_fis 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 19:23:15
#719 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2159
From: Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Does anyone actually hate PPC?


Had a bppc equipped a1200 with grex/voodoo3 that I used as my main system for quite a while.
Was very fond of it, but the bppc died unfortunately.
Amithlon made it fairly redundant though and towards the end of the bppc's life Id pretty much switched to that.
When the A1xe was released I used one briefly, but Amithlon was still the better/more powerful experience.
Bought a g4 eMac when it was supported by MOS and still use it sometimes, but after getting used to AROS on systems that make any supported ppc system as outdated as ppc makes "real" 68k cpus, for less than the price of a MOS license then it gets hard to justify sticking to ppc for anything Amiga related.
Doesnt have legacy support, is well behind in terms of performance, no nostalgia, and anything that's of any interest to me has equivalents on AROS that run better.
I know I harp on about performance a lot, but for my many of my "NG" uses it can be transformative.
Even 680x0 emulation on WinUAE well outguns any ppc running native ppc code in terms of performance.

Its not that I dislike PPC, I dont. Ive had lots of good fun with it over the years, but it was never anything more than bandaid for a system riddled with terminal flesh wounds.
Id like my retro to be retro, or my contemporary at least somewhat contemporary.
PPC sits in no-man's land for me. No retro appeal, but too slow for modern usage (unless a persons needs are more simple). It's just redundant these days (again, for me).

Last edited by fishy_fis on 21-Jan-2024 at 09:55 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 20-Jan-2024 at 07:25 PM.

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kolla 
Re: some words on senseless attacks on ppc hardware
Posted on 20-Jan-2024 22:32:46
#720 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2882
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

Quote:

It's time consuming.


Well, everything is more or less automated here, so even if my systems spend a bit of time every now and then, I am not - it's all automated. I just get a notification on my phone (alertzy) when something fails, and I have some gemini pages that show the overall status of my systems.

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