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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 13:34:37
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

The point is not to knock PPC. It is what it is. A fairer comparison would have been to run light wave in RunInUAE for the X5000 where it will be up against similar constraints, but it's somewhat moot.

The point is that ARM provides an affordable, performant future direction for AmigaOS. PowerPC does not.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 13:44:50
#182 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

You are correct. This is why I say that 68K is the only way forwards. What you run it on is up to you, as the enthusiast:

1. Real 68K classic machines
2. Vampire
3. AmiBerry
4. PiStorm
5. UAE

A range of options from pure hardware to pure emulation, containing some that cost basically nothing to get started with it you already have a system that can run UAE, for example.

PPC is more of a Hobson's choice between trying to find a compatible system second hand, paying a wedge for new kit or giving up and hoping QEMU is up to the task.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 13:58:18
#183 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

I wouldn't be doing you justice if I didn't bite:

Quote:
I didn't buy my X5000 to emulate a vintage rusty classic amiga


Humour me. What did you buy it for?

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pixie 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 13:59:48
#184 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam

I don't even know what your point is really

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pixie 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 14:07:49
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam

Quote:
Petunia, a Motorola 68020 processor emulator with dynamic recompilation, also called just-in-time compilation (JIT compilation), for PowerPC based Amigas. It gives OS4 backward compatibility to some extent, it will only run system friendly (following the OS3.x API without communicating directly with the classic Amigas' custom chipset) AmigaOS 3.x programs.[16]


Quote:
The Amiga 68k JIT emulator running side by side in the MorphOS environment is named Trance JIT. It is a MorphOS JIT compiler, or code translator, for running AmigaOS applications that are also supporting 68k apps using RTG, MUI, ReAction, or even AHI dependencies within the MorphOS environment.


I guess it's not magic after all...

Quote:
You did notice the difference between MOS and OS4 did you? And they run both on PowerPC. So by your logic, they should perform equal. Because once you're a JIT instead of interpreter, you are heavilly optimised, right?

No sweat heart, after a given threshold the only way to widen the gap is when you use JIT, those values are in accordance with a system who uses JIT, nothing more nothing less... the difference you got is because one is better then the other, how hard is that to understand?

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pixie 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 15:15:08
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@geen_naam

I guess you really like the smell of old farts... :D

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pixie 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 15:30:10
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

geen_naam wrote:
Quote:
Sorry, I haven't met you. So I do not know how you smell.


That's right, you don't know me... but it didn't stop you from presenting the world this little gem.
Quote:
Nowadays it serves the purpose of a Amiga diaper. Keeping wet farts like Karlos, Pixie, BigD etc confined like one big pile of bum cheese.

Last edited by pixie on 15-Feb-2024 at 03:32 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 16:20:27
#188 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:

geen_naam wrote:
@Karlos

To run the next generation AmigaOS: AmigaOS4.


Well I hate to be the one to break it to you, but it's not "next generation" in any meaningful sense of the word, because despite moving to hardware that does break the single core, 32-bit mould, the OS does not.

Pretending not to see that particular elephant in the room, I would like to ask why you want to run this "next generation" AmigaOS? If it was just a question of nostalgia, you can of course run 3.x on any of the aforementioned solutions.

The raison d'etre of an OS is to manage the resources of the physical hardware and make them available to software applications that you want to run on that hardware.

Quote:
Fortuntely, despite all the dust under the hood and thanks to modernisation, the experience is AmigaOS3.1 that I remembered but then much better. And I can execise my hobby to bring modern technology to AmigaOS (eg NVMe)


To what end, though?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 16:26:59
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@pixie

Quote:
I would think they would quite optimized for PPC...


you have not read the JIT blog I see.

http://euaejit.blogspot.com/2014/05/ppcjitbeta03-switch-to-ludicrous-speed.html

Álmos Rajnai explained the difference Putina and the EUAE JIT.
micro block optimization was only introduced by EUAE JIT.

On that subject UAE is bit like emulating a software “MMU”, the memory you read or write is on different location, and its not simple mapping, there customer routines, depending on if it’s the chipset or if chip ram, fast ram, or picasso96 memory.

So EUAE has bigger burden when it comes to read and writes, but its more optimized in its code generation.

how Trance, WinUAE JIT, EUAE JIT and Petunia JIT, Emu68K compare I do not know, some of JITs are written by different people, I’m not JIT expert. But what I do know there will be different results. Because they are not the same.

Just like you know if you compare DosBOX to QEMU, Bochs, VirtualBox etc, on the same hardware you will get different result. There is overhead that comes with emulation, eliminating that overhead, by using native API helps.

the JIT compiler in nutshell, has to read one format, and compile to different format, it has know when code is changed, it need to regenerate code, if needed, the JIT cache size is amount of code it remember, for Petunia JIT, I have no idea how large it is, for EUAE JIT and WinUAE JIT it can be adjusted, and expect it Emu68K having extremely large buffer. Recompiling code, is generally bad things, and it can help having some kind smart garbage collector, that reinstate code, if noticed its being accessed again, instead of having re recompile the same code, after flush.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 16:35:08
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12835
From: Norway

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@Gunnar & @umisef

So, this is my result from the compiler explorer, using powerpc gcc13.2 with -Ofast


extern int myscore;

void inc() {
myscore += 100000;
}


compiles down to

inc():
lis 10,myscore@ha
lwz 9,myscore@l(10)
addis 9,9,0x2
addi 9,9,-31072
stw 9,myscore@l(10)
blr



and here is the ARM code, its even longer:


inc():
adrp x0, myscore
add x0, x0, :lo12:myscore
ldr w1, [x0]
mov w0, 34464
movk w0, 0x1, lsl 16
add w1, w1, w0
adrp x0, myscore
add x0, x0, :lo12:myscore
str w1, [x0]
nop
ret


Not sure why GCC 13.2.0 adds a NOP before RET.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Feb-2024 at 04:37 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 16:46:03
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

You didn't specify an optimisation level (I assume you forgot rather than being disingenuous - I did use -Ofast for the PPC examples) :

ARM64 gcc 13.2 -Ofast


inc():
adrp x1, myscore
ldr w0, [x1, #:lo12:myscore]
add w0, w0, 98304
add w0, w0, 1696
str w0, [x1, #:lo12:myscore]
ret


First the two adds look as janky as the PPC example, but it's doing something similar. Whereas PPC has the implied 16 bit shift for addis, in ARM you get the ability to use different sized shifts. What the above code is doing is:

add w0, w0, #24, lsl #12 ; 98304

Last edited by Karlos on 15-Feb-2024 at 05:06 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:03:07
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

Quote:
So the definition of next generation is multicore and >32bit?


From the perspective of literally every other platform that made the transition from single core 32-bit to multicore 64-bit, yes. That is the definition. It's certainly more robust than "next generation is anything that is incrementally better than the previous iteration."


Quote:
Weren't you the one who recently wrote something like that if OS4 was available for 68k, that you would be all over it?


Yes. And I stand by it.

What I don't understand is why you don't understand why I say this and feel the need to contrive some non-obvious explanation to yourself.

OS4 on 68K is immediately an order of magnitude more compatible: both with existing 68K applications, including many that bang hardware (where the hardware exists in any case) and with available solutions to run it on.

OS4 on PPC is stuck on expensive limited run hardware and runs basically f*** all - at least nothing that couldn't run just fine recompiled for 68K in the performance envelope offered by UAE, PiStorm or AmiBerry.

The other option is OS4 on ARM 32/BE. I am a bit less enthusiastic about this. It does solve a lot of the hardware availability options but it excludes the entirely virtual option. It adds yet another binary format to the meangerie.

Last edited by Karlos on 15-Feb-2024 at 05:13 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:11:17
#193 ]
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

@Karlos

stop this shit and start working on something worth on use on arm
something that will be on pair with android/ios

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:14:17
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

I don't need to. It's already here.

You can run Linux on ARM or you can run AmigaOS on PiStorm. Both are presently better long term prospects than anything on PPC.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:14:45
#195 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

i think fpga has future
my dream amiga will be fpga with 68k and ppc core
with ocs for old games and better graphics for rest
classic and ng merged in one

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ppcamiga1 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:25:48
#196 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 790
From: Unknown

@Karlos

you want to switch to arm you should provide something worth use on it
amiga like

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Amiga4000 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:34:49
#197 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Jan-2006
Posts: 375
From: The Ford Galaxy

@ppcamiga1

Maybe Karlos doesn't feel like getting his arse sued off for violating Hyperion Entertainment's NDAs!


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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:42:42
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@ppcamiga1

Like I said. Amiberry and PiStorm are both "amiga like" and run on ARM. What part of this are you failing to grasp?

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pixie 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 17:49:49
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@NutsAboutAmiga

So that goes on explaining the burden that UAE has on Pi... which in itself is expected and explains why a said 2x faster CPU runs about on par with PPC, it doesn't tell that PPC JIT is or is not optimized. AFAIK JIT is tied to the CPU, I don't know how x86 JIT optimizations easily transposes to ARM in that matter...

Still in one side we have grunt force proving it's both cheaper and faster solution to run 68k.

Thanks for the link and explanation

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Karlos 
Re: 32-bit PPC on FPGA
Posted on 15-Feb-2024 18:27:05
#200 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@geen_naam

No need to be a pedant, you know full well what is meant by "running AmigaOS on a PiStorm" as does everyone else reading this thread. AmigaOS on a classic machine expanded with a PiStorm to allow the use of Emu68 running on a compatible RPi.

If you just want a standalone ARM solution that will also run AmigaOS, that's what AmiBerry is for.

Quote:
And it reduces the vintage Amiga to dumb keyboard and mouse dongle. For the sake of calling it an Amiga


Clearly you share the mindset of ppcamiga1 who makes literally word for word the same statement, just with more spelling mistakes, on a monotonously regular basis. Maybe there's a really obvious Occam's Razor type explanation for that.

The Amiga remains an Amiga in the PiStorm configuration because Amigas have by and large always allowed aftermarket CPU expansions, with their own memory and any additional hardware, like SCSI interfaces and so on. The complete system works and you retain access to the original chipset in addition to whatever the expansion board provides. The PiStorm+RPi presents itself as a 68040 (under Emu68) with RTG and some other cost saving bonuses, all using the same electrical signals and bus protocols to interface with the expansion slot / CPU socket.

Other than the performance achieved, what separates this expansion solution from any other 68040? Literally where do you draw the line that board A is an Amiga accelerator expansion and board B is a downgrade Amiga to keyboard and mouse adaptor?

It's utter nonsense.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is indistinguishable from the host system to a duck and fits in the same expansion slot as a duck... It's a duck.

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