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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 11:05:34
#81 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown


ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK syndrome


Did anyone here wonder why Matthey hates me so much?

This is very simple to explain.

Many years ago when the NATAMI project / the 68080 CPU development was young.
The Apollo-Team invited more people to participate.

Matthey wanted to participate in something big and important and joined for a short time.

But during his discussion with the team the Apollo-Team, it very quickly became clear that he often lacks understanding of the topics that he spoke about.

His opinion were often based on a dangerous mixture of halve knowledge and
halve wrong assumptions.

Arguing with someone who "believes" he knows ALL but in reality have NO CLUE, this is very tiring.


Matthew was then caught red handed in faking instruction statistics to "proof his points" / "to keep his face".


The team saw that Matthey did care more for "appearing like he knows", then for doing things correct.

Of course the team decided that this behavior is not matching the teams goals.

Matthey hates me for asking him to leave the team -
but in reality everyone in the Apollo team did agree Matthew not fits and has to leave.



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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 11:29:25
#82 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

Lets make this clear:

* There is nothing wrong with not knowing something.
* And its also fully OK to be wrong. There is no shame in this.

* No one can needs to know everything.
* And everyone has the right to be wrong.



What I think is not correct: is to pretend to be always right and to "lie" and "make up stories" to be appear to be right.


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cdimauro 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 11:37:16
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
@cdimauro


Quote:
LRU eviction algorithm

I can see that you think that the Cache works like this but unfortunately you not understand how CPU caches work.

Here I was referring to the TLB entries...
Quote:
Quote:
Now, the question is: are x86 (and x64) processors able to just write to memory without reading their memory in a data cache line? I don't know this detail.


This general problem here is: talking about topics and arguing about topics with ZERO personal experience

This is always the same problem.

Some people here try to argue about topics without having any practical coding experience and without practical knowledge of how the CPU works internally.

I call this :
ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK syndrome


Reading or browsing through an CPU manual is: OK.
Googling infos is:OK


But without some background knowledge:
- not understanding how MMU work internally.
- not knowing how caches work.
- not fully knowing how a CPU works.
- not knowing how games are coded.

Then google and Wikipedia only give you dangerous half-knowledge


I have all the knowledge that you seek.
- I have build such CPUs.
- I know how the MMU works internally.
- I know how caches work internally
- I can offer you to explain in detail how all about how a CPU works.

But arguing here with halve knowledge and halve misunderstandings and halve wrong assumptions is very tiring.

Can we agree that you simply ASK if you want to know something ?

I've asked, but you've given no answer and started writing a useless wall of text.

Let me write again:

Now, the question is: are x86 (and x64) processors able to just write to memory without reading their memory in a data cache line? I don't know this detail.

I've highlighted the relevant part for YOUR convenience.

Now, since you claim to be the expert, can you give a feedback on that?
Quote:
Can we also agree to use one naming and not 2 at the same time for things?
Motorola names MMU entries ATC and not TLB. Can we agree to not mix up Moto and INTEL naming.
I think this makes the reading then a lot clearer.

Thank you

Well, this should have been clear since the beginning: the context was x86 MMU. And I've always used TLB as the term to referring for exactly this reason.

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cdimauro 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 11:39:49
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:

ARMCHAIR QUARTERBACK syndrome


Did anyone here wonder why Matthey hates me so much?

This is very simple to explain.

Many years ago when the NATAMI project / the 68080 CPU development was young.
The Apollo-Team invited more people to participate.

Matthey wanted to participate in something big and important and joined for a short time.

But during his discussion with the team the Apollo-Team, it very quickly became clear that he often lacks understanding of the topics that he spoke about.

His opinion were often based on a dangerous mixture of halve knowledge and
halve wrong assumptions.

Arguing with someone who "believes" he knows ALL but in reality have NO CLUE, this is very tiring.


Matthew was then caught red handed in faking instruction statistics to "proof his points" / "to keep his face".


The team saw that Matthey did care more for "appearing like he knows", then for doing things correct.

Of course the team decided that this behavior is not matching the teams goals.

Matthey hates me for asking him to leave the team -
but in reality everyone in the Apollo team did agree Matthew not fits and has to leave.




@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
Lets make this clear:

* There is nothing wrong with not knowing something.
* And its also fully OK to be wrong. There is no shame in this.

* No one can needs to know everything.
* And everyone has the right to be wrong.



What I think is not correct: is to pretend to be always right and to "lie" and "make up stories" to be appear to be right.



I don't think that he hates. The opposite: he recognize your value and he would like you have you supporting his ideas about a new, better for the future, Amiga platform.

The rest is something which nobody can evaluate without PROOFS. Read: you can say X, and he can say Y, but here nobody can decide who is right.

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 12:20:14
#85 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
the context was x86 MMU


Was the real topic not "AMIGA and 68K"?
And is this forum not called AMIGAWORLD ?


I find it very irritating that Hammer always tries to use x86 as smoke candle if he lack 68k knowhow.
Lets us not do the same?



I think the original topic was

- That the 68040 MMU was designed in the 80th,
- at a time when one floppy did hold a complete OS.
- And when many computer had 512KB memory.


The Apollo Machines today have thousand times more memory.
today programs want to use a lot more memory than in the 80th.


This means the use case did change.


Therefore taking an 68040 MMU 100% as it was designed in the 80th but with not matching the circumstances.

I think we can agree that it makes sense to evolve the MMU to match the amount of memory.


The game DOOM/ Wolfenstein/ HERETIC/ Comanche ..
are very simple examples of how you can very easily create a situation that will overload the MMU.


Do we all understand this?

Is it all clear to all here, how the DOOM example with higher resolution does create an problem for the 040 MMU?


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Seiya 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 12:49:42
#86 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1475
From: Italia

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:

Question: How could people be motivated to do something positive?



Today there are: 68k, PowerPC, FPGA, SAGA, Emu68, OS4, OS3, AROS, MOS. Too much stuff.
The solution is a single hardware that must be able to be emulated and that all past, present and future software work on any operating system.

It's impossible because the community is divided: classic purists of 68k, classic purists of PowerPC and related Operating Systems, alternative ideas that tend to be incompatible with others. A program written for a Vampire will never run on a 68k Amiga.

It's a divided community and therefore everyone will contribute to their own faction as it has always been.

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 12:59:09
#87 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Seiya

Quote:
It's a divided community and therefore everyone will contribute to their own faction as it has always been.


And this is fully OK.. In my opinion!

I think its perfectly fine if some people write OCS A500 demos
and if other people write AGA demos, and again other people write Chunky demos, or use 3D Maggie.
Or maybe some people do all of this - as they please.

This is not a problem.
Last October in the Amiga Demo competition I also participated with an A500 Demo that I wrote.


My point was not that we should forbid people to work on what they like to do.

My question was: Can you motivate more people to do anything at all? (less bickering more doing!)

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 13:36:12
#88 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Seiya

Quote:
A program written for a Vampire will never run on a 68k Amiga.


I think in reality there is a lot overlap. As I said I wrote an A500 OCS demo - and it wrote it on a VAMPIRE 4.

We helped a lot to make GCC for 68K produce better code, and this again helps a lot for any AMIGA.

I see many people using Vampire systems to develop general Amiga software than can run on many Amigas.

Also the many bug fixes that our team did for the ApolloOS ROM code - they all help the same way 68k AROS.

Yes of course some games using Super-AGA features will not run without it - this goes without saying,
but for a lot other software there is a lot of overlap.

Last edited by Gunnar on 24-Feb-2024 at 01:39 PM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 14:36:33
#89 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
I don't think that he hates. The opposite: he recognize your value and he would like you have you supporting his ideas about a new, better for the future, Amiga platform.



My goal is to revive Amiga.
So giving the Amiga a better future is absolutely what will support.


Matthey I'm open to leaving the past in the past - and to look forward to do what can be done for Amiga.

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kolla 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 15:19:03
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2962
From: Trondheim, Norway

@matthey

Quote:
The mmu.library is unfortunately not the official MMU standard so there could be others. The 68k AmigaOS could use this standard and make it standard.


mmu.library and all the cpu libraries and their associated tools come as part of OS3.2 - what’s missing to make it “official”?

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kolla 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 16:00:04
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2962
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:
Lets make this clear:

* There is nothing wrong with not knowing something.
* And its also fully OK to be wrong. There is no shame in this.

* No one can needs to know everything.
* And everyone has the right to be wrong.

What I think is not correct: is to pretend to be always right and to "lie" and "make up stories" to be appear to be right.


And with all that in mind - for Nth time, where N is a rather big number - 68040 was designed in the 80s - how can someone in your position keep mixing simple plural with ordinal numbers? “That 70s show” is something vastly different than “That 70th show”. What is it with you and numbers - 100% this and 100% that… nah.

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CosmosUnivers 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 16:39:13
#92 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2007
Posts: 101
From: Unknown

@Gunnar

Quote:

Did anyone here wonder why Matthey hates me so much?


Gunnar, your are the MOST evil guy in our community : you fragmented a first time our machine with your junk PPC with the help of your friends Phase5...

Was not enough for you, you strike back with the AMMX many years later...

You have some technical knowledge with a low IQ : you are the perfect stupid, you believe you can fool all of us with your lies : no, you can fool only the idiots like you !

You are incapable to understand this evidence : YOU CANNOT FOOL THE CLEVER PEOPLE !

So, all your team is a bunch of stupids, a clever guy will never work with you because he see you are only an actor : you will never save anything in your life, only sink deeper our machine...

Buy a brain, really !

Last edited by CosmosUnivers on 24-Feb-2024 at 04:45 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 17:14:55
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4415
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

Lol, the drama queening here is strong.

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 18:23:11
#94 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 791
From: Unknown

Gunnar you work in phase5?
tell us more about it.
don't treat nc seriously.
these ppc cards were really good.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 24-Feb-2024 at 06:23 PM.

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Seiya 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 19:02:27
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1475
From: Italia

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:

Yes of course some games using Super-AGA features will not run without it - this goes without saying.


i intended that.

In my opinion it's finding a common goal for everyone. It would be nice if just a program, a demo, a game that runs everywhere independently of the machine and that takes advantage of the machine or whatever.

You make a demo for Amiga 500 running in 2D with 32 colors. On Amiga AGA it loads up to 256 colors in 3D. On Vampire use the SAGA or Maggy. More features added on OS4 and MOS. Other Feature for Aros x86, etc.

This was perhaps a slightly science fiction example, but if the ideas are there the results will come. And this could inspire all programmers, artists and musicians to create something better.

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 19:14:31
#96 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@ppcamiga1

Quote:
Gunnar you work in phase5? tell us more about it.


No, I never worked for Phase5.

But I can see that Phase5 are very good engineers, which have developed for Amiga very good cards.
Phase5 were clearly leading with doing high end stuff.
They not tried to go for the simple easy goals, instead they tackled very complicated high end project.
I highly respect their skill and their work.
I know some of them good and found them also as person nice to talk to.



Of course you all know Phase5 is not anymore.
Some of the Phase5 engineers continued as BPLAN,
and they did new developments close to Amiga, like the Pegasos and MorphOS.

And today a conman runs a website on the name Phase5.
He claims to produce again Phase 5 cards.
Of course everyone with minimal technical understand knows that you can not produce the old cards anymore. For many reasons. And the website of the conman is a hoax only to fool people.

Last edited by Gunnar on 24-Feb-2024 at 07:31 PM.

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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 19:19:33
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@Seiya

Quote:
You make a demo for Amiga 500 running in 2D with 32 colors. On Amiga AGA it loads up to 256 colors in 3D. On Vampire use the SAGA or Maggy. More features added on OS4 and MOS. Other Feature for Aros x86, etc.


I understand what you mean.
And I agree that its a cute/nice idea.


From my own experience I believe that the chipset which makes the Amiga special
requires some planning and design to take the most advantage from it.

This means when I want to make a game for Amiga chipset, then I would plan my game around
the features of the chipset ... With Sprites, and smooth Dualplayfields scrolling and more colors thanks to clever Copperlist. Maybe like Lionheart.

If you design something to "match" the features of the Amiga chipset - then I think it will be something completely different than making an Chunky RTG demo ...

Therefore I think making 1 demo for different hardware ...
This feels complicated and in the end maybe its a demo not running good on any platform?
I dont know.







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Gunnar 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 19:59:43
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Sep-2022
Posts: 511
From: Unknown

@CosmosUnivers

.Quote:
Gunnar, your are the MOST evil guy in our community : you fragmented a first time our machine with your junk PPC with the help of your friends Phase5... Was not enough for you, you strike back with the AMMX many years later... You have some technical knowledge with a low IQ : you are the perfect stupid, you believe you can fool all of us with your lies : no, you can fool only the idiots like you ! You are incapable to understand this evidence : YOU CANNOT FOOL THE CLEVER PEOPLE ! So, all your team is a bunch of stupids, a clever guy will never work with you because he see you are only an actor : you will never save anything in your life, only sink deeper our machine... Buy a brain, really !


Cosmos, do slow on the drugs, they are not good for you.

Last edited by Gunnar on 24-Feb-2024 at 08:03 PM.

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bhabbott 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 20:49:29
#99 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 349
From: Aotearoa

@Gunnar

Quote:

Gunnar wrote:

From my own experience I believe that the chipset which makes the Amiga special
requires some planning and design to take the most advantage from it.

This means when I want to make a game for Amiga chipset, then I would plan my game around
the features of the chipset ... With Sprites, and smooth Dualplayfields scrolling and more colors thanks to clever Copperlist. Maybe like Lionheart.

If you design something to "match" the features of the Amiga chipset - then I think it will be something completely different than making an Chunky RTG demo ...

Therefore I think making 1 demo for different hardware ...

Yes.

The original purpose of a 'demo' was to show off the hardware capabilities of the machine, especially custom hardware features that required tricky programming to get the best out of them (as apposed to just using a fast CPU and dumb frame buffer). Some of the effects developed to make use of those hardware features were then reproduced (with varying success) on other platforms, as a demonstration of what could be done without the custom hardware, or as a homage to the graphical style which that hardware enforced.

On the Amiga these demos were very important for promoting the machine, at a time when it was competing against other platforms and needed to show off what it was capable of before games etc. came out that fully exploited it. Without these demos people would think 'Meh, what's the Amiga got that this other machine (eg. the PC) doesn't?". It also showcased the skill of the programmers, who might then go on to produce commercial games etc. if their efforts we well received.

Modern graphics hardware is virtualized to the point where all you are doing is putting pixels on the screen, and there are no 'custom' hardware features to demonstrate. Therefore making an 'old-school' demo on a modern system is missing the point. Modern demos are pure artistry that says nothing about the hardware, which makes it far less interesting. If any machine can do it, in what way is it a demo?

Amiga demos are still important today to show things it can do that weren't known about 'back in the day'. It also applies to new hardware produced for the Amiga. A Vampire demo that showcases its custom hardware features is interesting. A chunky RTG demo running on a PiStorm is meh.

Last edited by bhabbott on 24-Feb-2024 at 08:51 PM.

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kolla 
Re: Can more people becomes a productive Amiga community member?
Posted on 24-Feb-2024 21:52:10
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2962
From: Trondheim, Norway

Demo compos have categories and classes which neither Vampires nor PiStorms fit, but both can strive to be compatible.

Last edited by kolla on 24-Feb-2024 at 11:39 PM.

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