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Karlos 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 13:27:39
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4423
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Hammer

Or any OCS/ECS/AGA game, even if directly HD installable. If depending on WHDLoad, you are even more out of luck.

If you are lucky, AGA games that are system friendly will run on OS4.1 classic on A1200/A4000.

I am not even convinced he has a PPC/NG system, if he does, he's probably still licking the box it came in.

Last edited by Karlos on 29-Feb-2024 at 01:29 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 29-Feb-2024 at 01:28 PM.

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 15:33:03
#102 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@Karlos

it is simple you want to switch to x86/arm you have to provide something worth use on x86/arm
especially working mui clone

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 15:34:10
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@Hammer

As I explain earlier I don't use 8 bit audio software

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kolla 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 17:11:11
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2965
From: Trondheim, Norway

@ppcamiga1

So what do you use? What do you need MUI for?

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 29-Feb-2024 17:24:58
#105 ]
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Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@ppcamiga1

https://arosnews.github.io/aros-x86-february-2024/

it's obvious mui isn't working, unfortunately people who are stuck on a ppc aren't able to see it...

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Hammer 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 7:08:38
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5407
From: Australia

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote:
@Hammer

As I explain earlier I don't use 8 bit audio software

1. Deluxe Music supports MIDI which is not limited to 8-bit samples. Deluxe Music's target market is desktop music publishing where its strength is with notation.

Deluxe Music can print to PostScript and be converted into PDF (for tablets) or "old school" paper printouts.

2. You argued Amiga NG is like A1200.

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jPV 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 11:35:09
#107 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 823
From: .fi

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@ppcamiga1

2. You argued Amiga NG is like A1200.

No, he told it works like HIS old Amiga 1200, but faster.

I can relate to this, because later times MY A1200 had RTG, AHI, etc. and I didn't use chipset banging software at all anymore. So the step to "NG" didn't drop anything off, but offered even more software, new features, stability, and really noticeable speed increase.

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Karlos 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 13:04:38
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4423
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@jPV

I must be the only guy that used RTG and chipset banging stuff. I had two monitors too, one for AGA and one for the BVision.

You guys don't know what you were missing. When working on my Quake mod (well it was just quake and models) I could actually test multiplayer mode directly on a loopback with one on AGA and the other on RTG. Yes I know I could have ran windowed mode, but where is the fun in that?

The RTG patch for TKG didn't work at all with my mod for that game, so it was AGA all the way.

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jPV 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 15:30:19
#109 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 823
From: .fi

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@jPV

I must be the only guy that used RTG and chipset banging stuff. I had two monitors too, one for AGA and one for the BVision.

I'm not saying that you'd be the only one, but just to remind that there are different ways of using Amigas. Of course I also had a display in the RGB port too, even though I'd preferred a pass-through to the main display, but had to go with what I got. And I've used it for occasional gaming, demos, etc. and had fun with dual display experiments, but never actually used it for productivity use. And I used it less and less until I practically didn't use it anymore, it was just there if I had to fix something by booting without startup-sequence.


Quote:
You guys don't know what you were missing. When working on my Quake mod (well it was just quake and models) I could actually test multiplayer mode directly on a loopback with one on AGA and the other on RTG. Yes I know I could have ran windowed mode, but where is the fun in that?

You could do that with multiple graphics cards also. I eventually had two RTG graphics cards in my A1200 and the record we've had is 5 graphics cards in one A4000. We did try multiplayer dynAMIte on 5 monitors, for example :)

BTW. MUI is handy with multi-display setups, because any MUI program can be configured to any MUI screen, and you can create common MUI screens to any monitors. You can then group programs for certain use in one monitor, and other kind of programs on other monitor etc.. Snapshot window placements, and voilà! Programs themselves don't need to support this kind of configuring at all, it just comes with MUI.

But anyway, I still have my classic Amigas with and without RTG and stuff, but I only turn them on few times a year, because "NG" systems are much more convenient for everyday productivity use.. don't have much time for games anymore. And dualhead support is better on MorphOS nowadays too...

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 16:35:27
#110 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@Karlos

I have Amiga from Commodore with vampire
but I use it as NG only slower
I prefer to play old games on winuae because I may scale output from winuae
to exact match size of 1084

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kolla 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 16:43:28
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2965
From: Trondheim, Norway

I also had multiple gfx cards in my A3000, and several monitors. Was using CyberGraphX because of the CVPPC, P96 wasn’t a functional option at the time.

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 1-Mar-2024 19:49:47
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@ppcamiga1

Lol... You prefer to run games on a PC emulator that gives you non constant frame rates and therefore jerkiness, yet you diss Pistorm which doesn't emulate the chipsets? Are you for real? Do you even own a computer, at all?

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ppcamiga1 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 2-Mar-2024 3:44:20
#113 ]
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Joined: 23-Aug-2015
Posts: 793
From: Unknown

@pixie

I prefer winuae because I may setup it to get
old games looks like on Commodore 1084s monitor.

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Hammer 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 5-Mar-2024 5:43:44
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5407
From: Australia

@jPV

Quote:

jPV wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@ppcamiga1

2. You argued Amiga NG is like A1200.

No, he told it works like HIS old Amiga 1200, but faster.

I can relate to this, because later times MY A1200 had RTG, AHI, etc. and I didn't use chipset banging software at all anymore. So the step to "NG" didn't drop anything off, but offered even more software, new features, stability, and really noticeable speed increase.

The other chipset banging software is Amiga NLE which bangs on 3rd party chipsets.

The limited (more than 10,000 units) success for Vampire is about chipset banging software.

Reshoot Proxima 3 requires an AGA chipset.

I still use both RTG/AHI and OCS/AGA software on my PiStorm32-RPi4B-Emu68 enabled A1200.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Mar-2024 at 05:52 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 5-Mar-2024 5:45:24
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5407
From: Australia

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@ppcamiga1

Lol... You prefer to run games on a PC emulator that gives you non constant frame rates and therefore jerkiness, yet you diss Pistorm which doesn't emulate the chipsets? Are you for real? Do you even own a computer, at all?

On the gaming PC, FreeSync or GSync solves the 50 hz PAL issue.

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 5-Mar-2024 8:14:55
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Hammer

Not on my setup sadly, I have a 4k 60hz, i bought a DisplayPort so that i could use it, it works on the demos I saw from nvidia (better then vsync, but not perfect) perhaps it has to do with my lcd... I don't have a real Amiga/CRT combo to compare with, nor we have a Digital Foundry dedicated Channel on youtube

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 7-Mar-2024 5:45:31
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@Hammer

Not on my setup sadly, I have a 4k 60hz, i bought a DisplayPort so that i could use it, it works on the demos I saw from nvidia (better then vsync, but not perfect) perhaps it has to do with my lcd... I don't have a real Amiga/CRT combo to compare with, nor we have a Digital Foundry dedicated Channel on youtube

You don't need a G-Sync or FreeSync monitor to enjoy a very smooth video experience with emulators and, specifically, with WinUAE.

If you've a modern-enough video card, WinUAE allows you to select "Lagless V-Sync" which works very well with any regular monitor.

You can make some test with Pinball Dreams, for example, which was more sensible to lags.

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bhabbott 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 7-Mar-2024 15:27:59
#118 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 351
From: Aotearoa

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

You don't need a G-Sync or FreeSync monitor to enjoy a very smooth video experience with emulators and, specifically, with WinUAE.

If you've a modern-enough video card, WinUAE allows you to select "Lagless V-Sync" which works very well with any regular monitor.

You can make some test with Pinball Dreams, for example, which was more sensible to lags.

Or instead of needing to have a 'modern-enough' video card, you could simply use that ultimate Amiga emulation hardware, an Amiga 500.

This is why I have an A500 and 1084 monitor - to get effortless 'emulation' that reproduces the entire experience with no question as to how accurate it is. As well as ensuring that my precious memories of the Amiga are preserved, it's important when eg. comparing the original Amiga version of Pinball Dreams to the PC version (which was not smooth).

But how does this relate to your 'non-existent “Amiga NG” systems'? You say they 'cannot hide the inherent limitations of the system' but this is not their real flaw. The problem is that they don't reproduce those 'limitations' completely. Once you give up original Amiga hardware to go 'NG' you no longer have an Amiga.

In your blog you talk about these 'NG' OS's bringing with them 'major problems that were never solved' but are they really problems?

Memory protection:

This is only a problem on the Amiga for seriously buggy programs. If developers follow best practices and use appropriate debugging tools it should not happen. Having memory protection just encourages sloppy coding.

I run the Enforcer and Mungwall on my A1200 which picks up most memory corrupting bugs, and I quarantine programs which violate their detections until they are fixed. My system is very stable.

More comprehensive memory protection could easily be added to Amiga OS if desired. The fact that nobody has done it just shows that it's not that big a deal.

Resource tracking:

IMO the OS should not have to be responsible for this. You cite the case of a program opening a file and not closing it. This is a bug. The OS shouldn't be in the business of hiding application bugs.

From a developer's perspective having resource tracking could save some coding effort. But this doesn't have to be done via the OS. Code can easily be developed that automatically frees resources on exit. I do this in all my programs.

Process and thread concept

You say the Amiga implementation is 'A big mishmash, in short, which makes the system extremely fragile and makes it unsuitable for more “mainstream” use.'. I haven't seen any evidence that this is true. Regardless, 'mainstream use' is not what the Amiga is about. It is as you say a 'hobby/toy' computer, and a retro one at that. Nobody's controlling a nuclear power station or running a banking system on their Amiga!

Multicore

This one is self-evident. There are no multicore 68k CPUs, so no reason to fret about a feature that isn't needed. Most of my PCs don't need it either!

64 bits

Ditto.

The Stack

Compilers can generate code that monitors the stack and extends it if necessary. Whether this is a good thing is debatable. IMO programs should avoid using undefined amounts of stack.

You show a typical single-tasking OS memory map and say the Amiga 'cannot use a model similar to this, having the entire address space shared by all tasks/threads and also by the OS'. This sounds like a really bad idea to me. At a minimum it makes debugging harder because at any time the OS could dump stuff onto the stack. It also means an application could corrupt stuff on the stack used by other apps or the OS. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean, but I like the Amiga way where each process (and the OS) has its own stack space.

As for running past the stack limits, that can easily be protected against in real time if you have an MMU. If not then make the stack large and check it every so often to see how much of it was used. And don't write unbounded recursive code!

Access to OS structures (and lack of abstraction):

There's nothing wrong with accessing public OS structures. If the developer wants to break the rules and access private structures, that's on them.

Not sure where 'lack of abstraction' fits in here, but you say 'Obviously, the problem does not only concern Exec, but is endemic to the entire platform: the lack of appropriate APIs and/or the publication of a lot of details on the internal structures of the OS has been the main cause of the blocking of its evolution.'

If there is a lack of APIs that are really needed then they should be added to the next OS version. If they aren't it's because the OS designers don't think they are necessary. You cite no API for 'knowing the list of running tasks'. Why would you want this?

Kernel/supervisor mode… and more:

You say, "The extreme freedom offered by the OS can also be seen in another aspect that is not insignificant and which does not immediately stand out: that of being able to easily switch from user mode to supervisor/kernel mode (and vice versa, but… only if you want to!)."

I say yes! Extreme freedom is what I want! It's my computer dammit, and nobody's going to stop me from disabling multitasking or interrupts or going into supervisor mode whenever I feel like it. Of course with appropriate hardware and software those things could easily be blocked, but why should they?

Modernity is not just about going beyond the original chipset:

Indeed, but 'NG' doesn't mean that - it just means going beyond the stuff Commodore made. Since we now have modern hardware capable of executing 68k code faster (Vampire, PiStorm etc.) and continued development of the original OS, 'NG' is no longer the only way forward. But Amiga OS will never be 'modern' and we don't want it to be!

If you really want memory protection, OS resource tracking, multicore and 64 bits, and a fully virtual OS with every API you can think of, then there are modern systems that do that. Trying to duplicate them on the Amiga would turn it into something it isn't - and seriously cripple it for no good reason.

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pixie 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 7-Mar-2024 17:00:42
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3173
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@cdimauro
I have a 2080, and I also tried on my brothers's computer that has a 144hz... and both didn't cut it, or I didn't find the right settings. I tried Andromeda D.O.S and there's jitter, SWOS intro there's jitter, playing it is not as smooth... but since i don't have an Amiga with a crt I cannot say if it is my expectations too high, or my setup

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cdimauro 
Re: The non-existent “Amiga NG” systems
Posted on 8-Mar-2024 5:42:41
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3650
From: Germany

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@cdimauro
I have a 2080, and I also tried on my brothers's computer that has a 144hz... and both didn't cut it, or I didn't find the right settings. I tried Andromeda D.O.S and there's jitter, SWOS intro there's jitter, playing it is not as smooth... but since i don't have an Amiga with a crt I cannot say if it is my expectations too high, or my setup

You've to select "Lagless VS (BR), 50/60Hz" from the dropdown menu at the right of "Settings:" and "Native" (which should be Fullscreen" on the Display page of the configuration. Set also 4 slices on the rightmost dropdown menu.

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