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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 0:33:23
#341 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@cdimauro


Yes the VDC is so slow that no action games exist for it...huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnNRyj7aChU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCQk4MKV54

That's mostly a static screen with a small moving object.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbWGAFIkA5E
AGA's HAM8 in 640x200p mode with texture-mapped 3D.

AGA can deliver 30 fps at 640x200p in HAM8 or 256 colors when there's sufficient compute power.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2024 at 12:35 AM.

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Lou 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 0:42:22
#342 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4259
From: Rhode Island

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:
@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@cdimauro


Yes the VDC is so slow that no action games exist for it...huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnNRyj7aChU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCQk4MKV54


That's mostly a static screen with a small moving object.


Games only change he part of the screen they need to. This is nothing new.

Quote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbWGAFIkA5E
AGA's HAM8 in 640x200p mode.

AGA can deliver 30 fps at 640x200p in HAM8 or 256 colors when there's sufficient compute power.

Oh 'when there is sufficient computer power' huh?
When is that? Not stock out of the box...
No offense hammer as I respect your technically detailed posts but...I can emulate a faster cpu and run games that unlock extra modes of the VIC too.
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Graphics_Modes

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 0:55:52
#343 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@cdimauro

You win the strawman award!

You reply to me on a sentence by sentence basis taking my context out.

It's pathetic really.

You want a source to 68000 instruction timings, how's about you google it instead of being a zealot in disbelief. DIV on a 68000 takes 140-152 cycles. Wow what a champion of a cpu!

Here's a review of an actual C65/64DX:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoHxDe3Gc9E

Even that guy says that the 3.57Mhz 65CE02 blows away the 7.14 Mhz Amiga and it gave you chunky graphics and 320×200×256; 640×200×16; 640×400×16; 1280×200×4; 1280×400×4; palette of 4096 colors. It also came with dual SIDs for 6 channel stereo, so again:

it outperformed your false-godly-worshipped Amiga in 1990.

In the end, the reviewer stipulated that too many Amiga owners would have been butt-hurt by it's release. I concur.


Before the low cost 68EC020-16 offer in early 1991, AA's A500 spec was paired with 14 Mhz 68000. Only AA Lisa is 32-bit.

A1000Plus with AA is paired with 68020-16 or 68020-25 (about $800 retail target).

https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=1944
Quote:

Dave Haynie has also commented on Usenet the A1000+ was to be a mid-range follow up to the A3000+ that used its own cost effective system architecture. On the processor speed, Dave differs from Mike Sinz, indicating it was an $800 25MHz AGA system, in a low-profile "near pizza box" case.


From https://www.minneapolisfed.org/about-us/monetary-policy/inflation-calculator
$800 in 1991 is $667.44 in 1987 i.e. A500's 1987 $699 release price.

For 1991, that's pretty good against 386DX-25-based PC.

A1000+ AA's two Zorro slots would have enabled larger economies of scale for the Zorro II/III market which benefits big box Amigas.

AA600/A1200's Gayle and Budgie are not required for AA due to existing Fat Gary, Ramsey, and four PLL bridge chips. A600 had five PLL chips for byte swapping and PCMCIA.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2024 at 12:57 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 1:14:21
#344 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@Hammer

[quote]
Hammer wrote:
@Lou

[quote]
Lou wrote:

Oh 'when there is sufficient computer power' huh?
When is that? Not stock out of the box...
No offense hammer as I respect your technically detailed posts but...I can emulate a faster cpu and run games that unlock extra modes of the VIC too.
https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Graphics_Modes


Amiga's HAM is compressed pixels like MJPEG ideas which modern PC GPUs have adopted/assimilated e.g. Delta Color Compression (DCC), DXT lossy/lossless compressed textures and 'etc'.

Emu68 with RPi 4B is just a "what IF" workaround solution for "missing in action" 68K in the Pentium III +700 Mhz level.

Emu68 with RPi 3A+ is just a "what IF" workaround solution for "missing in action" 68K in the Pentium II 300 Mhz level.

Framebuffer's composition processor can be done by the host CPU or co-processor or DSP or GPU. Modern PCs offloaded the framebuffer's composition processing to the GPU. A strong host CPU is still needed for 3D game state processing.

The Amiga couldn't use the lower cost 68EC040 due to missing MMU and the chipset wasn't 68040 class cache snoop capable.

Motorola attached a price premium or missing-in-action MMU killed 68K in the handheld smartphone market.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2024 at 01:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2024 at 01:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Aug-2024 at 01:15 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 4:56:39
#345 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4438
From: Germany

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@cdimauro

Wow, the VDC doesn't have direct access to it's own memory .... Wow you taught me something new!

Well, that was the topic in THAT part of the discussion, which you've "forgotten".
Quote:
I mean I can totally see the magical-fairy memory controller between the VDC and it's ram chips!

https://idoregesz.hu/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/idoregesz_c128_vdc_ram_01.jpg


I mean as if the wire layout on the board plainly visible going straight from the ram to the chip weren't evidence enough...[/quote]
Irrelevant.
Quote:
I guess you have to be a special kind of rocket scientist to make trollish claims on the internet, provide no proof but demanding the other side prove everything your pathetic mind disagrees with...

See above: it's not my fault if you aren't even able to understand what was the discussion about and started derailing talking of different things.

Again, what's not clear to you that it was about the CPU vs VDC's RAM that part of the discussion? Yes, that crappy super slow operation that you clearly have no clue at all.

Besides that, I've provided proofs AND, especially, documentation which show that you don't know even the basics of C65: the 8 x bitplanes for its NEW graphics modes, and you were still thinking that it had... 64kB of RAM.
Quote:
Apparently the documentation calling it burst fill/copy wasn't enough of a clue ...but why look at that when you can just troll?

That's about the VDC's INTERNAL RAM operations, which is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING.

Hopeless!
Quote:
Yes the VDC is so slow that no action games exist for it...huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnNRyj7aChU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaCQk4MKV54

You're still in denial of the Risen From Oblivion VDC demo. Poor little troll..

That's all the evidence I need to show what a pathetic troll you are.

ROFL Thanks for recalling me the ZX Spectrum, which was doing better than this pure crap that you reported.

BTW, I was talking about GAMES (not even action: just games). NOT amatorial programs.

And to be clear, since you're hopeless: games developed from a software house (AND published, of course) which were using the VDC.
Quote:
Let me know when you get over the butt-hurt of a 2.47Mhz 6502-family cpu

Ah, now you invented a 2.47Mhz system, which is living on your brain.
Quote:
outperforming your precious 68000... On second thought - don't bother, you're a waste of my time.

That's not my problem anymore, since I gave you a simple exercise about that and I'm still missing your solution. Do you, that elementary stuff with a simple double-linked list and some strings.

You were supposed to be a C128 developer, but since you can't do even that trivial stuff it's clear that you're a complete incompetent that just likes to write big load of b@alls.

Ah, I'm still waiting the documentation of the SUPPOSED packed/chunky graphics of your beloved C65.

Last edited by cdimauro on 18-Aug-2024 at 04:41 AM.

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Lou 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 14:30:44
#346 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4259
From: Rhode Island

@cdimauro

2.47Mhz 6502 is all it takes to outperform a 7.14Mhz inefficient turtle but I realize math isn't your strong suit. That's why a 3.57Mhz 65CE02 that is also almost 50% more efficient than the original 6502 destroys your pride and joy.

I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence for anything besides your wiki-speculation. You've got nothing but butt-hurt. You still think C64 graphics are planar... A C65 could do VGA-quality graphics in 1990. It took Amiga 2 years to catch up.

I know you are still confuse about planar vs chunky. Here is the definition of planar and chunky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_(computer_graphics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packed_pixel

Now explain to me how a C64 demo has the ability to do planar graphics considering the memory requirements? You can't. Besides not being that smart, it's impossible.

If you instead have a LUT if 240 programmable colors (because the first 16 are the stock C64 colors), depending on the color cell size, you can still uses the VIC-II compatibility mode's color ram, which is also a LUT...to display 256 colors on a screen as a whole while having 1 register define the background color. The ability to change the background color with 1 register is what enabled the 'raster-bar' effect you saw in the demo. If you reduce the cell size to 8x1, then 8000 bytes is required for color ram. It still limits you to 2 colors within an 8x1 cell. This is still not a bit-plane. It's chunky, aka packed-pixel. Also it's coincidentally how the VDC handles colors. It can define smaller cell sizes. Next you will tell me the VDC is planar....what a fool!
I know reality is hard for you to grasp.

Do recite your C65 speculated wiki with little general info with little details as hard facts. Believe what you want zealot.


Also you truly exposed your level of stupidity still believing that the VDC doesn't have DMA to it's own memory wired directly to the chip. You have surpassed the level of stupid I have even seen on the internert.

Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2024 at 02:41 PM.

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Lou 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 17-Aug-2024 14:38:54
#347 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4259
From: Rhode Island

Oh wow, other people talking about the VDC's DMA...wow - I need to tell them they are wrong and should worship the almighty and all-knowing cdimauro! What a f!ng joke!

https://c-128.freeforums.net/thread/641/vdc-dma

Pathetic troll! You tried moving the goal posts about VDC DMA.


Now I realize you're not to bright and all but...

The VDC supports a double-pixel mode. This essentially lets you shrink the color cell size to 4x1 on a 320x200 display...it can also go down to 160x200 for a 2x1 cell. It's what makes games I linked possible on the VDC because reducing the column count increases it's speed. This also means that the VDC can display 8x more colors within the typical 8x8 cell/tile of the C64's VIC-II in hi-res 320x200 mode...

Yes I realize you are a dumb troll but there's a fairly comprehensive summary of display modes:
https://c64os.com/post/commodorehardwareinformation

Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2024 at 03:05 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2024 at 02:47 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2024 at 02:39 PM.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 0:26:06
#348 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@Lou

Performance = IPC x clock speed. IPC alone doesn't complete the the CPU solution. For a given process node, longer pipeline is needed for higher clock speed.

Tiny 16bit memory segmention is just brain dead for larger memory size. Bill Gates called 286's 16-bit memory segmention with IBM OS/2 1.x as brain dead.

Intel's 386 release timing in 1985 was good enough for PC's road map upgrade path when the major 68000 desktop competition was constrained by either by fragmented platform manufacturering or demand factors.

ARM selected the good characteristics from 68000's flat memory model and 65xx's good IPC.

Under 68000's microcode, there's a simpler CPU core which evolved with higher IPC.

Motorola wasn't careful with 68EC040's cache management for their DMA enabled desktop computer and desktop game console platform customers. It's just price policy issue when 68EC040 has the same BOM cost as 68LC040 and 68040. Motorola thinks its Intel and followed Intel's 32bit CPU price guidance which opens the door for 32-bit RISC competitors. Motorola should have realized it's not Intel.

486''s release in 1989 was timely when MIP released R3000 in June 1988. 68040 being late didn't help Motorola's Unix desktop workstation customers since 386/486 has standard MMU and Xenix. 486 was being manufactured in 1988 for certain loyal customer.

The non-x86 Unix vendors needs to do better than industry standard x86, not just a #metoo, hence the non-x86 Unix pushed for high clockspeed RISC CPUs.


Last edited by Hammer on 18-Aug-2024 at 12:41 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Aug-2024 at 12:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Aug-2024 at 12:30 AM.

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bhabbott 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 4:52:54
#349 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 554
From: Aotearoa

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote:

Emu68 with RPi 4B is just a "what IF" workaround solution for "missing in action" 68K in the Pentium III +700 Mhz level.

Intel Introduces Fastest Processor For Desktop PCs
Quote:
SANTA CLARA, Calif., Dec. 20, 1999 -- Intel Corporation today introduced Pentium® III processors at 800 MHz and 750 MHz, establishing Intel's highest levels of performance for the desktop...

The Pentium III processor 800 MHz in SECC2 packaging is priced at $851 in 1,000-unit quantities; the 750 MHz version is priced at $803.

The retail price would be over US$1,000!

In 1999 the Amiga was a dead platform, so whether a 700 MHz 68k was available or not made no difference.

PiStorm is not a 'what if' workaround, it's a practical low-cost solution for today. With it we are finally able to reach (close to) the full potential of AGA. That it took 25 years to get there is not important. We have it now and that is all that matters!

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cdimauro 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 5:24:51
#350 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4438
From: Germany

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@cdimauro

2.47Mhz 6502 is all it takes to outperform a 7.14Mhz inefficient turtle but I realize math isn't your strong suit.

As expected, that usual IPC/MIPS comparison: the PURE CRAP which you continue to spread to sustain your wet dreams about the crappy processors that you want to defend.

But if the 68000 is so much inefficient, why don't you provide the DOUBLED-LINKED list of string exercise which I've asked for, and show me how much fast your crappy 6502 at that?
Quote:
That's why a 3.57Mhz 65CE02 that is also almost 50% more efficient than the original 6502 destroys your pride and joy.

Wasn't it: UP TO 25%?

https://web.archive.org/web/20221112231057if_/http://archive.6502.org/datasheets/mos_65ce02_mpu.pdf
The instruction set has been streamlined, removing most dead cycles which occurred due to page boundaries and micro-code pipelines, allowing existing code to run up to 25% faster
Source: Commodore.

Next time it will become 100%...
Quote:
I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence for anything besides your wiki-speculation. You've got nothing but butt-hurt. You still think C64 graphics are planar...

C64? You live in the land of confusion.

The (sub)discussion on the 256 colours was about the C65 NEW bitplane modes, and I've provided evidence of it from COMMODORE's documentation on such computer.
Quote:
A C65 could do VGA-quality graphics in 1990.

Fly down: the VGA allowed screen modes up to 400x600 in 256 colours, from a 262144 palette, and screen modes up to 800x600 in 16 colours. All without interlace.
Here I'm talking about screen modes which can be created by reprogramming its video chip and going well beyond the default modes available via its BIOS.
Quote:
It took Amiga 2 years to catch up.

Only for the 256 colours, but the Amiga allowed overscan modes which went up to 360x240 in NTSC and 360x280 in PAL modes, plus interlaced modes which doubled the vertical resolution. And the productivity modes like 640x480.

With its Chip RAM available it allowed scrollable screens which are much larger than what the C65 can do.
Quote:
I know you are still confuse about planar vs chunky. Here is the definition of planar and chunky.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_(computer_graphics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packed_pixel

Now explain to me how a C64 demo has the ability to do planar graphics considering the memory requirements? You can't. Besides not being that smart, it's impossible.

Again, you continue to talk about the C64 whereas 256 colours = C65 = New BITPLANE modes.

Since you're using the Wikipedia, I do the same:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_65#Technical_specifications

A new VIC-III graphics chip named CSG 4567 R5, capable of producing 256 colors from a palette of 4096 colors; available modes include 320×200×256 (8), 640×200×16 (4), 640×400×16 (4), 1280×200×4 (2), and 1280×400×4 (2) ( X×Y×color depth, i.e. number of colors (bit planes) )
[...]
Bitplane modes
A new "bitplane" video mode was added to allow the displaying of true bitplane type video, with-up to eight bitplanes in 320 pixel mode and up to four in 640 pixel mode. The CSG-4567 can also time-multiplex the bitplanes to give a true four-color 1280 pixel picture. Vertical resolution is maintained at 200 lines as standard, but can be doubled to 400 with interlace [6]. The VIC-III bitplane modes take up to 64 KB of system RAM in non-interlaced or 128 KB RAM in interlaced (400 line) modes. Since the C65 is equipped with only 128 KB in its basic configuration, these modes would consume the entire RAM, and are therefore only useful in a RAM expanded system. On a basic system, it would probably have made more sense to write software which uses less demanding resolutions with fewer bitplanes - partly because this would consume less of the confined RAM space, but also because more bitplanes would demand a higher video DMA bandwidth and consequently slow down the CPU as a result.


bitplane = PLANAR graphics. NOT packed/chunky.
Quote:
If you instead have a LUT if 240 programmable colors (because the first 16 are the stock C64 colors), depending on the color cell size, you can still uses the VIC-II compatibility mode's color ram, which is also a LUT...to display 256 colors on a screen as a whole while having 1 register define the background color. The ability to change the background color with 1 register is what enabled the 'raster-bar' effect you saw in the demo.

Raster bars? Oh, something which never seen on Amiga...
Quote:
If you reduce the cell size to 8x1, then 8000 bytes is required for color ram. It still limits you to 2 colors within an 8x1 cell. This is still not a bit-plane. It's chunky, aka packed-pixel. Also it's coincidentally how the VDC handles colors. It can define smaller cell sizes. Next you will tell me the VDC is planar....what a fool!
I know reality is hard for you to grasp.

Sure, the "lovely" CHARACTER MODES.

Do you know that this trick was used on the CGA as well?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_Graphics_Adapter

Graphics modes:

160 × 100 in 16 colors, chosen from a 16-color palette, utilizing a specific configuration of the 80 × 25 text
This used 4 bits per pixel, with a total memory use of (160 * 100 * 4) / 8 = 8 kilobytes.


I reveal you a secret: CHARACTER modes are NOT packed/chunky modes.
Quote:
Do recite your C65 speculated wiki with little general info with little details as hard facts. Believe what you want zealot.

Well, wasn't YOU that used... WIKIPEDIA above?

At least I've provided the C65's Commodore documentation which was NOT coming from wikipedia.

I'm still waiting YOUR documentation about the supposed packed/chunky mode of the C65. Guess what: you continue to provide NOTHING. Because you've nothing, naturally, dear ignorant.
Quote:
Also you truly exposed your level of stupidity still believing that the VDC doesn't have DMA to it's own memory wired directly to the chip. You have surpassed the level of stupid I have even seen on the internert.

Unfortunately the Nature was an evil step-mother for you, since you still continue to do NOT understand that the discussion was about CPU to VDC's RAM memory transfers. I quote again myself:

ON PAPER they are independent buses, but the VDC had very little space and the CPU has to COPY data from its memory to the VDC one, which is a SUPER SLOW OPERATION.

Again, what's not clear to you that it was about the CPU vs VDC's RAM that part of the discussion? Yes, that crappy super slow operation that you clearly have no clue at all.

The first is a reply to this that you've written:

The C128's VDC has EGA-like colors but offered up to SVGA-like resolutions without the Amiga-slowdown once the resolution goes up because the cpu and gpu were on different buses.


The CPU and VDC buses are different, hence copying something from the CPU to the VDC RAM takes A LOT of time, killing the performances, as I've already reported many times.

So, the context was NOT the VDC internal fill & copy operations, which I NEVER talked about...
Quote:
Lou wrote:
Oh wow, other people talking about the VDC's DMA...wow - I need to tell them they are wrong and should worship the almighty and all-knowing cdimauro! What a f!ng joke!

https://c-128.freeforums.net/thread/641/vdc-dma

Pathetic troll! You tried moving the goal posts about VDC DMA.

Now I realize you're not to bright and all but...

See above, joke of nature: I NEVER talked about the internal VDC operations.

But thanks for the link that you've provided, because it made me ROFL:

You can recopy the entire visible screen at near 10-11 frames a second.
If you reduce the size of the screen and reduce the size of data segments to be copied (say 10cols by 10 rows or 80x80 pixels) you can approach 30 updates a second (very suitable for animation)


Yeah, SUPER FAST, but only in CHARACTER MODES.

It's interesting to see if how long it takes to copy an entire screen: around SIX TIMES the refresh rate (60FPS).

Now you can take a look at the Amiga Hardware manual and check how much it requires for the same. Don't be shocked.
Quote:
The VDC supports a double-pixel mode. This essentially lets you shrink the color cell size to 4x1 on a 320x200 display...it can also go down to 160x200 for a 2x1 cell. It's what makes games I linked possible on the VDC because reducing the column count increases it's speed.

That's still character mode, and you can clearly see from YOUR demos how BIG are the blocks = "pixels".
Quote:
This also means that the VDC can display 8x more colors within the typical 8x8 cell/tile of the C64's VIC-II in hi-res 320x200 mode...

Sure, you can continue take the C64 as a reference, which at least was MUCH FASTER on moving graphics and with the 8 x sprites.

As I've said, VDC = NOT suitable for games. In fact, no games were released: guess why...
Quote:
Yes I realize you are a dumb troll but there's a fairly comprehensive summary of display modes:
https://c64os.com/post/commodorehardwareinformation

Not needed, thanks. The VDC remains a crappy video processor, as you've clearly shown with the demos.

In fact, even the ZX Spectrum did much better.

Last edited by cdimauro on 19-Aug-2024 at 04:17 AM.

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bhabbott 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 8:50:37
#351 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 554
From: Aotearoa

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:

What a f!ng joke!

Pathetic troll!

Now I realize you're not to bright and all but...

"Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong"

Quote:
In the C900, it's blitter was programmed easier

The official hardware specification document says nothing about a blitter. Where can I find information on how it was programmed?

Quote:
and it displayed 1024x800 graphics. It offered true bit-mapped graphics superior to what the lowly A1000 could display. No need for wiki - here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbVjNInzrw8

The 'high resolution' card did 1024x800 in monochrome (2 colors). Is that superior to the A1000? For its intended use as a Unix workstation, yes. For what most of us wanted to do, no - the A1000 is far superior.

Quote:
The VDC supports a double-pixel mode. This essentially lets you shrink the color cell size to 4x1 on a 320x200 display...it can also go down to 160x200 for a 2x1 cell. It's what makes games I linked possible on the VDC because reducing the column count increases it's speed. This also means that the VDC can display 8x more colors within the typical 8x8 cell/tile of the C64's VIC-II in hi-res 320x200 mode...

Interesting. The C128 Programmer's Reference Guide does not mention these modes.

Quote:
there's a fairly comprehensive summary of display modes:
https://c64os.com/post/commodorehardwareinformation

Apparently not comprehensive enough.

Quote:
C128
Resolutions
VDC:
80x25 text
80x50 text
640x172 Hides color mode
640x200 monochrome mode
Interlacing available, but not useful

Color cell size
VDC:
8x8 to 8x32

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Karlos 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 11:38:43
#352 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4958
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

There's no question the 6502 was a great 8-bit CPU. Personally I came from a z80 background where it was all about the flexibility of the instruction set and having a lot of registers, but clock for clock, the 6502 was way more efficient.

However, comparing the 6502 to 68000 is foolish because they are completely different classes of processor. You can argue Turing completeness all you want from a theoretical perspective but from a practical, pragmatic one, there's innumerable things the 68000 can do directly that the 6502 can't, at least without additional hardware (e.g. banked memory support, etc) due to the lack of address space. And when you get down to the things they can both do, the 68000 has the advantage of supporting up to 32-bit operands. So, while the 68000 can add a pair of 32-bit integers in a single instruction, where the 6502 would need 5 (clear the carry followed by four add with carry). Moving on, the 68000 can do 16x16 => 32 multiplication using both signed and unsigned semantics, likewise it can do 32/16 => 16r:16q again with signed and unsigned semantics. The 6502 needs fairly large subroutines to do these using simpler operations.

There are certainly specific examples you can construct where a 6502 can outperform a 68000 on an operation by operation basis, but overall, on any general purpose code with a realistic mix of logic, arithmetic and data movement, the 68000 is going to crush the 6502, assuming the task at hand can even be implemented for the 6502 in the first place.

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kolla 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 13:06:30
#353 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 3475
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hammer

Quote:
Though it was smaller and had fewer features than the A500


Really, fewer features? Is he counting each individual numpad key as a feature?

And how would an A300 have been? Like the A600 only with no IDE, no PCMCIA, no expansion slot, just 68000+ECS+1MB RAM and a floppy drive? To attract C64 owners? In 1992? A tad optimistic perhaps?

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 18-Aug-2024 16:28:14
#354 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@kolla

Quote:
And how would an A300 have been? Like the A600 only with no IDE, no PCMCIA, no expansion slot, just 68000+ECS+1MB RAM and a floppy drive? To attract C64 owners? In 1992? A tad optimistic perhaps?


Actually, a cost reduced A500 is/was a good idea, looking at sales historically... A500 accounts for the vast, vast majority of sales and has had it's best year in 1991 before it was discontinued.

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 3:44:50
#355 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:
Though it was smaller and had fewer features than the A500


Really, fewer features? Is he counting each individual numpad key as a feature?

And how would an A300 have been? Like the A600 only with no IDE, no PCMCIA, no expansion slot, just 68000+ECS+1MB RAM and a floppy drive? To attract C64 owners? In 1992? A tad optimistic perhaps?

The original intent for A300 is for C64's price segment.

A500's edge connector can support 68K CPU accelerator while little-endian PCMCIA can't support 68K CPU accelerator.

PCMCIA's "memory only" memory expansion cards are sale flops in the PC laptop world since laptop SIMMs also has this role.

A600 wasted money on extra 5 PLL chips byte swapping and extra two PLL bridge chips.

PIO IDE is simple enough since A1000Jr has IDE without A300's Gayle in 1991.


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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 4:00:02
#356 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
There's no question the 6502 was a great 8-bit CPU. Personally I came from a z80 background where it was all about the flexibility of the instruction set and having a lot of registers, but clock for clock, the 6502 was way more efficient.

However, comparing the 6502 to 68000 is foolish because they are completely different classes of processor. You can argue Turing completeness all you want from a theoretical perspective but from a practical, pragmatic one, there's innumerable things the 68000 can do directly that the 6502 can't, at least without additional hardware (e.g. banked memory support, etc) due to the lack of address space. And when you get down to the things they can both do, the 68000 has the advantage of supporting up to 32-bit operands. So, while the 68000 can add a pair of 32-bit integers in a single instruction, where the 6502 would need 5 (clear the carry followed by four add with carry). Moving on, the 68000 can do 16x16 => 32 multiplication using both signed and unsigned semantics, likewise it can do 32/16 => 16r:16q again with signed and unsigned semantics. The 6502 needs fairly large subroutines to do these using simpler operations.

There are certainly specific examples you can construct where a 6502 can outperform a 68000 on an operation by operation basis, but overall, on any general purpose code with a realistic mix of logic, arithmetic and data movement, the 68000 is going to crush the 6502, assuming the task at hand can even be implemented for the 6502 in the first place.

Below 68000's microcode, it's simple CPU core, hence the reason for 68K instructions are executed in several clock cycles. 68000's microcode gives convenience for programmers and conserve instruction issue slot.

Motorola doesn't allow direct access to 68000's simple CPU core.

65CE02 could be modified for 32-bit by attaching microcode front-end i.e. 8 bit instructions for faster direct path and 32-bit instructions via the slower microcode path. The problem is 3rd party support for 32-bit instruction extensions for 65K.

Modern X86 CPUs have hybrid direct and microcode paths instead of extremist between the two camps.

Commodore couldn't customized 68000's CPU core which speeds up certain math instructions. Many 68K platform customers headed towards separate RISC directions e.g. HP PA-RISC (replacing 68K workstation), Hitachi's SuperH (Hitachi was 68000 license cloner), DEC's Alpha (replacing 68K workstations), SGI's MIPS selection (replacing 68K workstation), SUN's SPARC (replacing 68K workstations) and 'etc'.

68K ISA are more than 20 years old and they exited US patent protection which allows AC68080 to exist.

Commodore has some experience with CPU design via 1 IPC 65CE02 improvement and PA-RISC ISA was selected.


Last edited by Hammer on 19-Aug-2024 at 04:17 AM.

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agami 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 4:22:10
#357 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1958
From: Melbourne, Australia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@kolla

Actually, a cost reduced A500 is/was a good idea...

Absolutely. It's a standard practice in product management.

The A500 was a capable/expandable home/personal computer. While many consumers purchased it for, and used it primarily as a gaming computer, others performed other non-gaming tasks. I certainly did during my university days.

So, if a very large percentage uses it as a gaming computer, then why not create a more stripped down/low cost SKU aimed purely at gaming?
Reduce the amount of expansion ports: Does it need an RBG port if trend data shows that most A500 gamers use RF with TV? Does it need a parallel port? I certainly wouldn't bother with IDE as Amiga gaming was mainly a floppy-based system. And definitely no PCMCIA.
I would however keep the trap-door expansion for extra RAM. It costs very little to leave this header on the motherboard, and to have the door as part of its housing.

The A600 as a companion to A3000, as A500 was to A2000, would only have made some sense if it was released at or around the same time as the A3000. It makes absolutely no sense to release it in 1992. I think those who purchased an A600 at the time did so because there were no retail A500s.

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cdimauro 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 4:25:16
#358 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4438
From: Germany

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
There's no question the 6502 was a great 8-bit CPU. Personally I came from a z80 background where it was all about the flexibility of the instruction set and having a lot of registers, but clock for clock, the 6502 was way more efficient.

That's why it's important to measure how long they took to complete specific tasks, instead of taking a look at their IPC/MIPS.
Quote:
However, comparing the 6502 to 68000 is foolish because they are completely different classes of processor. You can argue Turing completeness all you want from a theoretical perspective but from a practical, pragmatic one, there's innumerable things the 68000 can do directly that the 6502 can't, at least without additional hardware (e.g. banked memory support, etc) due to the lack of address space. And when you get down to the things they can both do, the 68000 has the advantage of supporting up to 32-bit operands. So, while the 68000 can add a pair of 32-bit integers in a single instruction, where the 6502 would need 5 (clear the carry followed by four add with carry). Moving on, the 68000 can do 16x16 => 32 multiplication using both signed and unsigned semantics, likewise it can do 32/16 => 16r:16q again with signed and unsigned semantics. The 6502 needs fairly large subroutines to do these using simpler operations.

There are certainly specific examples you can construct where a 6502 can outperform a 68000 on an operation by operation basis, but overall, on any general purpose code with a realistic mix of logic, arithmetic and data movement, the 68000 is going to crush the 6502, assuming the task at hand can even be implemented for the 6502 in the first place.

Exactly. The guy was promoting using such crap processor to replace the 68000 on the Amiga 1000, which is a totally crazy proposal.

Let aside the needed time machine for achieving this non-sense, he never took a look at how the Amiga OS APIs worked and were implemented, with its high-level constructs/structures to handle.
Implementing this stuff on a 65xx would have been a bloodbath for the programmers, and a crux for the users due to the poor performance.

He's talking of things which he has no clue at all, simply because he has a keyboard and he's pressing keys...

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Hammer 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 4:57:14
#359 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6504
From: Australia



Quote:

@bhabbott

The retail price would be over US$1,000!


That price would quickly decline due to Ghz race.

https://www.theledger.com/story/news/1999/11/30/amds-newest-processor-the-fastest-for-now/26538878007/
Nov 29, 1999,

Quote:

Computer chip maker AMD released a new processor Monday that crunches information at a speed of 750 megahertz, surpassing Intel Corp.'s 730 megahertz chip introduced last month.
...

AMD said it is working on a 1,000 megahertz processor to be introduced next fall.




https://www.anandtech.com/show/424/20
December 20, 1999 for "Athlon 800".
Quote:

We all make mistakes, and on October 4, 1999, in our review of the AMD Athlon 700, we implied that the last Athlon released this year would be the 700MHz part. Shortly thereafter, Intel released a 733MHz Pentium III which forced Compaq to pressure AMD into releasing an Athlon with a higher clock speed and, thus, the Athlon 750 was announced on the 29th of November.

As if that were not excessive enough, with rumors that Intel was going to start sampling their Pentium III based on the new Coppermine core in 750MHz and 800MHz flavors, AMD was pressured to release data on their competing product early. And thus we have our review of the AMD Athlon 800.


My cited Anandtech link reviews both Pentium III 800Mhz and Athlon 800 Mhz.

Quote:

@bhabbott

PiStorm is not a 'what if' workaround, it's a practical low-cost solution for today.

It's a workaround since Motorola/Freescale's "official" 68K didn't have its Pentium III +700 Mhz level variant.

PiStorm-Musashi is many magnitudes slower than PiStorm-Emu68.

PiStorm-Emu68 is still a "What IF" retro like the AC68080.

PiStorm32-Lite and PiStorm16 (Michal Schulz's FPGA version) has official support for RPi CM4. Michal Schulz's PiStorm16 has Zorro DMA support.

My PiStorm for A500 has unsupported RPi 4B configuration despite it works and shown from Michal Schulz's youtube channel's A600 with PiStorm and RPi 4B.

Quote:

With it we are finally able to reach (close to) the full potential of AGA. That it took 25 years to get there is not important. We have it now and that is all that matters!

With PiStorm-Emu68, the display bottleneck is on AGA.


Last edited by Hammer on 19-Aug-2024 at 05:05 AM.

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kolla 
Re: DoomAttack (Akiko C2P) on Amiga CD32 + Fast RAM (Wicher CD32)
Posted on 19-Aug-2024 7:30:09
#360 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 3475
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hammer

I want to hear why anyone would but A300, not the flaws of A600 - what was the specs?

Most importantly- would it feature a full keyboard? That’s really the one thing I kept hearing people whine about at the time.

Last edited by kolla on 19-Aug-2024 at 07:42 AM.

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