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Kronos 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 11:58:14
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

None of that would have changed by 85 so anything Zilog/C900 was just as doomed.

I really don't see what you are trying to get here?

With C= being the C= we know the C900 would have been just another short lived 80s oddball from a company going down soon after.

Nothing that would have made it stand out in a time when where AppleIII and IIGS were around (just as a not 100% obscure example).

With C= not being the C= we know they would have updated all the MOS stuff never needing to look at Zilog or 68k based HW (regardless whether "pro" or consumer HW).

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 12:04:11
#102 ]
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Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@Kronos

What does Apple II or IIGS have to do with C900?

Quote:
Nothing that would have made it stand out


Do not agree with that, but let's agree to disagree.

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Hammer 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 12:09:14
#103 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
That is correct. A good portion of the C900 team ended with Tramiel at Atari. And, if I remember whar Dave Haynie said, some of the C900 solutions ended in the ST.

Atari ST's monochrome high-resolution mode, but the Atari TOS platform only has a 2 million unit install base. Atari ST's monochrome high-resolution mode requires a special monitor while Apple's Mac is standard until Mac II.

From 1985 to 1986, Apple's Mac has a superior ready-to-go GUI business software library and PostScript standard.

Amiga's 4 to 5 million install base is superior to the Atari TOS platform's 2 million install base.

PC VGA (promotes 15 kHz CGA into VGA's 31 kHz) doesn't have to deal with Atari ST's clumsy two-monitor workaround. Amiga OCS's A2024 high-res monitor also has a similar clumsy two-monitor workaround.

PC VGA's 16-color 640x480p standard crushed both of them.


According to Dataquest November 1989, VGA crossed more than 50 percent market share in 1989 i.e. 56%.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/dataquest/0005190_PC_Graphics_Chip_Sets--Product_Analysis_1989.pdf

Low-End PC Graphics Market Share by Standard Type
Estimated Worldwide History and Forecast


Total low-end PC graphic chipset shipment history and forecast
1987 = 9.2. million, VGA 16.4% market share i.e. 1.5088 million VGA.
1988 = 11.1 million, VGA 34.2% i.e. 3.79 million VGA. (e.g. Windows 2.x MS Excel, PageMaker).
1989 = 13.7 million, VGA 54.6% i.e. 7.67 million VGA (exceeds 50%. Windows 2.x WinWord release).
1990 = 14.3 million, VGA 66.4% i.e. 9.50 million VGA. Windows 3.0 and Wing Commander nukes.
1991 = 15.8 million, VGA 76.6% i.e. 12.10 million VGA.
1992 = 16.4 million, VGA 84.2% i.e. 13.81 million VGA.
1993 = 18.3 million, VGA 92.4% i.e. 16.9 million VGA.


https://dosdays.co.uk/topics/Manufacturers/tseng_labs.php
By 1991, according to IDC, Tseng Labs held a 25% market share in the total VGA market i.e. 3.025 million. Tseng Labs's SVGA sales have no problem crushing Commodore and Atari at the same time.

1990 released AtariTT030's 640x480p 256 colors and A3000's flicker fixer (640x400p/512p 16 colors) units are tiny and wouldn't change the baseline standard for either platform.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Aug-2024 at 12:28 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Aug-2024 at 12:25 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Aug-2024 at 12:11 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 12:11:38
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@Kronos

What does Apple II or IIGS have to do with C900?



Oddball computers that never mattered in the grand scheme of things.

Or if you want you can compare it to the BeBox the A2500/3000UX variants, RiscPC, the Sage stuff (you know used to bootstrap AmigaOS) and plenty of other obscure HW.

The only thing that makes the C900 "cool" is that it was never released but still existed in real HW. Similar to the C65 in lots of way.

And just like the C65 if had been released it would have flopped and be grouped together with the Plus/4 stuff in "what idiot gave that green light" category.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 12:14:37
#105 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@Kronos

Quote:
The only thing that makes the C900 "cool" is that it was never released but still existed in real HW. Similar to the C65 in lots of way.


No. For me, the C65 was never cool or desirable, not in 1992 anyway.

The C900 had legs in 1985 as there was nothing similar on the market and the demand was there. The idea was good, the execution was probably what would have been the biggest stumbling block as C= was not good at marketing or supporting their machines.

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Kronos 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 12:35:55
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:


The C900 had legs in 1985 as there was nothing similar on the market a


Slap Coherent on a AT clone and you have the same experience at a similar price without having to deal with C=.

Those UNIX workstations of the didn't sell by better specs, they sold because they had a proper support, support that C= was known not to offer. Support that would have jacked up the price if C= had a way of offering it.

Also while that market existed it would not have been big enough for mass production to drive prices down.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 14:36:05
#107 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@Kronos

Quote:
Slap Coherent on a AT clone and you have the same experience


You don't say.... what about the price?

As far as I can tell, 286 AT clones started appearing in around 1985, so similar date as C900...

But, here are the specifications of some of the earliest 286 AT clones that appeared in july of '85...



Kaypro 286i

Name: Kaypro 286i Type: Desktop computer CPU: 16-bit 80286, 6 MHz.

RAM: 512K (addresses up to 15Mb) Keyboard: Detachable, 84 keys, slant adjustable

Display: 80 X 25 characters; 320 X 200 pixels (four colors) Disk Drives: Two 1.2Mb, 5.25 floppy drives

Ports: One RS-232C serial and two parallel; NTSC and RGB on graphics board



Now, here's the price... Price: 512K, graphics board, and two floppy drives $4500

So, basically, with Coherent licence added(500$), it was nearly TWICE the price of the C900, and you don't get a HDD.

For comparison, IBM's AT with 512K RAM and 20 MB HDD was 5800 USD.


So, there was no competition for C900 in 1985. Period.

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A1200 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 16:08:03
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-May-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Westhall, UK

@WolfToTheMoon @Kronos

I'll tell David Pleasance and Dave Haynie not to bother, you have written the book already


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Kronos 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 16:21:03
#109 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@A1200

It will be total BS one way or another so......

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Kronos 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 16:36:55
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2713
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:



So, there was no competition for C900 in 1985. Period.



Would C= been able to to produce them at that price including a proper Coherent license and margins for support and future developments.

Dunno...There was no C900 in 1985. Period.

Just remember that C= developed the A300/600 as a cost reduced A500 only to have it cost...

Also reading a bit it seems that the Z8000 was closer to a 8086 than the 80286 (which makes sense given it initial release date) with the only upside that it could address more than 1MB but at in even worse way.
68000 was the better design, but all 3 would have been weird and outdated in a !new! workstation class computer.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 17:06:38
#111 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@Kronos

Quote:
Would C= been able to to produce them at that price including a proper Coherent license and margins for support and future developments.


I'm guessing they wouldn't be selling them at a loss... even Tramiel wasn't crazy enough.
We also know that, historically, Commodore tended not to support their machines that much unfortunately.

Quote:
Also reading a bit it seems that the Z8000 was closer to a 8086 than the 80286 (which makes sense given it initial release date) with the only upside that it could address more than 1MB but at in even worse way.
68000 was the better design, but all 3 would have been weird and outdated in a !new! workstation class computer.


It was on par with the 286 in most regards, feature wise, but probably a bit slower clock-per-clock. The Z80000 would have been competitive with 386 and 68020/68030 machines, in theory at least. One advantage of the Z8000 was that it was simple, small and cheap to produce... 17 500 transistors. Less than the 8088 and much less than the 68000.

Nice thing about C900, it had an MMU stock and there was an 40 pin slot for the optional FPU.

So, in theory, let's say C900 gets released, you could get a really nicely equipped system(CPU, FPU, large disk, 1MB+ RAM, video card....) for less than the basic PC AT(which lacked most of those things). In 1986, it would have been a really attractive machine for those wanting/needing UNIX compatible... And it might have even prompted third party ports of official UNIX systems since several were ported on the Z8000(XINIX, UNIX System III, Version 7 UNIX, also CP/M and several other OSes...)

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cdimauro 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 20:13:26
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4127
From: Germany

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@Hammer

This is a joke, right?

Macintosh(the original) was a complete failure, lacking memory and performance. It didn't sell well and it was one of the main reasons why Jobs left/was fired.

Let's compare the specs of the C900 and the original Macintosh/Macintosh 512K

Macintosh vs C900
CPU: 68K at 7 MHz(no FPU option) vs Z8001 at 10 MHz(FPU coprocessor optional)
RAM: 128K/512K, with no expansion vs 512K with up to 2MB expansion
HDD: No HDD vs 20 MB HDD standard, up to 67 MB
Screen/Graphics:)9" screen with 512X342(used the RAM memory) vs 15" screen 1024X800(dedicated 128 kB 8563 MOS video chip)
Floppy drive: 400K vs 1.2 MB
OS: single user, no multitasking piece-of-shit vs UNIX, multiuser, multitasking

It wasn't even close! On top of that, C900 was to be priced as same as the base Macintosh, which in 1985 was mostly useless because of the slow system perfomance. Macintosh wouldn't really come into it's own until the expandable Macintosh II range was launched in 1987, which was fast, but extremely expensive(at 5500$ base price) and still had the same shitty OS.

Seriously, do you think that a workstation like that using the 8563 could be by any means usable? Have you seen the video shared by Lou? The graphics is updated sooooooo sloooooooowly.

The 8563 is a super crappy video processor, which only a criminal mind would have conceived it.

First of all, it supports maximum 64kB and not 128kB. So, the 8563 as it is had no chance at all to display a 1024x800 screen.

However, and even if there's a special version used with such amount of memory installed, that memory is roughly enough to hold the screen, leaving only 28kB free to park some graphic assets.

Everything else should be copied from the CPU memory to the VDC's RAM, with a super slow protocol AND using only the horizontal or vertical blank period for that.

Translated: it's not useable for manipulating graphics, because it's damn, really damn slow, and this just for transferring single bytes at the time.

Now, imagine to create a GUI running on such system: how do you implement all graphics primitives with such super slow memory transfer?

The only way to make it a bit faster is to create a copy of the screen on system/CPU's memory (so, wasting a lot of memory), apply all changes there as fast it can be done by the CPU (because there's no Blitter), and then (SLOWLY) copying only the bytes of the changed parts to the VDC's memory.

Now compare it to how it works with the "inferior" (!) Macintosh: the CPU can directly access the screen's framebuffer and directly update the graphics very fast, since it requires no screen copy neither a slow process to copy the changes.

The Mac wins hands down: no joke!

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 21-Aug-2024 21:42:39
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1410
From: CRO

@cdimauro

according to dave haynie, the high resolution version did use blitter.

https://youtu.be/PbVjNInzrw8?t=1038

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matthey 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 1:08:40
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2457
From: Kansas

WolfToTheMoon Quote:

It was on par with the 286 in most regards, feature wise, but probably a bit slower clock-per-clock. The Z80000 would have been competitive with 386 and 68020/68030 machines, in theory at least. One advantage of the Z8000 was that it was simple, small and cheap to produce... 17 500 transistors. Less than the 8088 and much less than the 68000.

Nice thing about C900, it had an MMU stock and there was an 40 pin slot for the optional FPU.


The 80286 had an on-chip MMU which provides a performance advantage and saves board space but has a bad ISA. The Z8001 used an external MMU. If using an external MMU, the 68020 with external MMU was a much better option due to the large flat address space and the best ISA, although more expensive and using more board space. The Z800x was introduced the same year as the 68000 and the 68000 was higher performance. It was showing its age and was about to be eclipsed by the Z80000 with a large flat address space so not the best time to introduce an upscale new product based on it. The C900 was supposed to be out earlier which would have made the choice more acceptable. There were Unix like systems based on the Z800x released as early as 1981 although they were more expensive back then.

WolfToTheMoon Quote:

So, in theory, let's say C900 gets released, you could get a really nicely equipped system(CPU, FPU, large disk, 1MB+ RAM, video card....) for less than the basic PC AT(which lacked most of those things). In 1986, it would have been a really attractive machine for those wanting/needing UNIX compatible... And it might have even prompted third party ports of official UNIX systems since several were ported on the Z8000(XINIX, UNIX System III, Version 7 UNIX, also CP/M and several other OSes...)


CBM was aiming for a competitive C900 price which looked alright. There was plenty of Unix demand but the market looked crowded with too many players for economies of scale. I don't see CBM having much in the way of advantages compared to the competition. The hardware is not very integrated with 3 boards (motherboard, large LR or HR graphics board and hard drive controller). It is less integrated than the Amiga which quickly became cheaper. It made sense to reuse an Amiga or PC clone for the Unix market as it improved economies of scale that were lacking for the Unix workstation market. This is exactly what CBM did with the Amiga 2500UX and Amiga 3000UX. While CBM had limited success, they missed the opportunity to sign a deal with Sun to provide low end Sun workstations. They also sabotaged the effort by not upgrading the Amiga integrated chipset, especially graphics to growing workstation specs. CBM was chasing the standard spec instead of setting it. Jay Miner wanted 1024x1024 resolution in the Ranger chipset that could have been available in about 1987 and would have made the Amiga 2500UX a lot more appealing for workstation use.

WolfToTheMoon Quote:

according to dave haynie, the high resolution version did use blitter.

https://youtu.be/PbVjNInzrw8?t=1038


The 8563 was for the low resolution display board used as a text based server. It only supported up to about 640x400 resolution according to your video link (wiki says 720x700 but with more video memory?). The high resolution display board with blitter was for the workstation version of the C900 and had a higher price. That is a good video. Notice the lack of integration of the C900. The Amiga 1000 was not great either but the Amiga 500 was cost reduced down to a smaller board and $699 USD by 1987. The Amiga chipset could have provided much more if enhanced with minimal increase in board sizes and cost as AA showed while it could have been integrated further into fewer chips and finally a SoC but CBM was not as smart as Jay Miner. The C900 also could have been integrated and cost reduced if there was adequate economies of scale for the more upscale Unix market but why not start with an Amiga or PC clone for a larger market?

Last edited by matthey on 22-Aug-2024 at 01:16 AM.

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cdimauro 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 4:15:09
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4127
From: Germany

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

WolfToTheMoon wrote:
@cdimauro

according to dave haynie, the high resolution version did use blitter.

https://youtu.be/PbVjNInzrw8?t=1038

I see, but... where is the HR card? We don't know which video processor was used, how was the Blitter (he said it's like the AAA one which addresses pixels, but... on a monochrome display there's NO difference!), and there's not even a video showing it in action which allowed us to deduct its behaviour.

Your video shows the LR = Low Resolution card in action which we're talking about before. The VDC was using 64kB of RAM, that allows to display a 640x400 pixel screen (which takes all the memory), and you can clearly see how SLOOOOOOOW is the system at upgrading the display (even the scrolling text is so slow, if it's the text mode).

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Hammer 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 4:31:04
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@WolfToTheMoon


Quote:

No. For me, the C65 was never cool or desirable, not in 1992 anyway.

The C900 had legs in 1985 as there was nothing similar on the market and the demand was there. The idea was good, the execution was probably what would have been the biggest stumbling block as C= was not good at marketing or supporting their machines.


For real workstations, SUN, DEC and HP offerings have ECC memory support.

https://www.stcs-gmbh.de/en/hp9000-motorola/workstations/series-300/hp382.html
This example is an HP9000 382 workstation with 68030 CPU @ 25Mhz and ECC memory support.

A3000UX being marketed to the "UNIX" market without ECC memory is not being serious about data integrity. Academia may not require ECC memory's data integrity feature.

It shows how Commodore is out of touch with real workstations and the records speak for themselves. Commodore was stuck in the 1970s PET mindset. Commodore wasn't mastering a market segment.

If data integrity is required, I wouldn't buy a Commodore.

Mac's DTP niche is about print publishing i.e. visual arts has less need for data integrity.

------------------

My modern RTX 4090 and AM5 motherboards have ECC memory support.

Last edited by Hammer on 22-Aug-2024 at 04:41 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 22-Aug-2024 at 04:38 AM.

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matthey 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 4:38:19
#117 ]
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Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 2457
From: Kansas

@cdimauro
The C900 in the video that the guy tears down has a LR card. That server C900 was not in working condition. In the same video is a video of a working C900 workstation with HR card though. Not much is shown but it seems to be reasonably fast. It is difficult to judge though as it looks fairly high resolution but lacks color. Nothing as impressive as the Amiga but the early Amiga lacked enough graphics memory to impress too.

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cdimauro 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 4:58:42
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 4127
From: Germany

@matthey: there are only two parts in the video where I can see something in action.

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbVjNInzrw8&t=1372s
It's clearly the LR card at 640x400, and it's the part I was referring to.

And at the beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbVjNInzrw8&t=3m55s
But that's not the 900.

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Hammer 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 5:26:17
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
You don't say.... what about the price?

As far as I can tell, 286 AT clones started appearing in around 1985, so similar date as C900...

But, here are the specifications of some of the earliest 286 AT clones that appeared in july of '85...



Kaypro 286i

Name: Kaypro 286i Type: Desktop computer CPU: 16-bit 80286, 6 MHz.

RAM: 512K (addresses up to 15Mb) Keyboard: Detachable, 84 keys, slant adjustable

Display: 80 X 25 characters; 320 X 200 pixels (four colors) Disk Drives: Two 1.2Mb, 5.25 floppy drives

Ports: One RS-232C serial and two parallel; NTSC and RGB on graphics board

Now, here's the price... Price: 512K, graphics board, and two floppy drives $4500

So, basically, with Coherent licence added(500$), it was nearly TWICE the price of the C900, and you don't get a HDD.

For comparison, IBM's AT with 512K RAM and 20 MB HDD was 5800 USD.

So, there was no competition for C900 in 1985. Period.

Both 32-bit 386 and 16-bit C900 (with "16-bit" Z8001) were demos during 1985. The "32-bit" 386 has osborned the "16-bit" Z8001 CPU in C900.

Compaq released a full 32-bit 386-based PC in Sep 1986.

68020 was released in 1984 with a direct upgrade path from 68000 to 68020 with minimal OS changes from 68000 to 68020. There's road map superiority with 68K.

68000 is a 32-bit/16-bit hybrid CPU, it had the "32-bit" tickbox. Atari's ST stands for Sixteen-Thirty Two. 386 wouldn't be able to "osborned" the 68K.

Due to 68000, Mac, Amiga, and Atari ST have near 386SX type solution.

Intel's "32-bit" 386 release in October 1985 was timely. Zilog's 32bit Z80000 had production delays into 1986 while Intel had 386 supply superiority in 1986.

Upon the release of Compaq Deskpro 386 in September 1986, it had the full support from Intel and Microsoft i.e. Windows 2.x, Xenix System V/286, and promised Xenix 386 upgrade roadmap. The rest of the PC clones followed Compaq's lead.

For 68000 and 68020, Motorola has 32-bit CPU supply superiority over Zilog's 32-bit Z80000.

The expensive costs from commercial UNIX and commercial Unix clone vendors lead to IBM-MS's OS/2, MS's NT, and open-source Unix clones.

On the issue of CPU supplies, I agree with Apple exclusive screaming matching against the bullshit from Bill Mensch.

68K had better potential and it was mismanaged.

---------------

IBM's open PC platform has a superior business software library and this is the major factor for PC establishment.

Apple Mac needs to do better than the PC's high-resolution text-based business software library instead of #metoo C128 effort.

For the MS Office team, it needs to do better than the PC's high-resolution text-based Lotus 123, WordStar, and Word Perfect.

PC's "second source" advantage is from the CPU to the desktop platform.

Last edited by Hammer on 22-Aug-2024 at 06:08 AM.
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Hammer 
Re: New Kickstarter - David Pleasance feat Dave Haynie book
Posted on 22-Aug-2024 6:42:38
#120 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 6171
From: Australia

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

He did. Zilog was Tramiel's decision, to use/manufacture Z8001(decision made in 1983) and eventually buy Zilog. He was all about vertical integration. When he left Commodore, the idea (of Zilog) left with him.

Tramiel's Plus 4 almost bankrupt Commodore.

From Commodore - The Final Years,
Quote:

The failure of CDTV hurt Commodore badly. They had spent in the neighborhood of $90 million designing, marketing, and manufacturing the risky machine and it did not pay off.

It was a catastrophe to equal the Plus/4 fiasco, which had nearly bankrupted Commodore.


A500's booming sales in 1990 are hiding the CDTV fiasco i.e. wasted $90 million.

A500's booming sales in 1990 and 1991 were holding the line until a "bus error" canceled it.

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