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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
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ihatewestlife2002 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 18-May-2004 18:54:52
#81 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Sep-2003
Posts: 830
From: Scotland....only a bit further south!

@Bobsonsirjonny

Sh*t man u got me going there! Fanless? The day a modern CPU is fanless I would be proud of my dustless, silent computer! I've never been proud of an x86 they are embarassing!

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EntilZha 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 12:25:47
#82 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:
M$ may be reading this thread and pinch ideas... Amiparanoia me thinks...


Well, hit me if I'm wrong, but I think only making actual code execute enabled is the most logical thing to do. Not only will it allow you to see where exactly code is located (as in our case), but it will also prevent overflow attacks.

On the PPC, it requires a special memory segment that is flagged as executable. That might be the reason why not every system does it that way... Although for OS4, this segment is just another piece of virtual address space that is empty as long as no PPC code is loaded...

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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

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EntilZha 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 12:31:47
#83 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@CodeSmith

Quote:
Nice! How do you determine if a particular memory area contains "legit" 68K code? Specifically, if I overrun a buffer and inject some 68K code into the stack (or the heap, I guess), will the 68K emulator run that code?


There's no such check. If you point the emulator somewhere, it will start emulating, no matter if it's genuine 68k code or not. You could of course use s buffer overflow to run 68k code, but coming from PPC, this is not possible with at least a bit of PPC glue code (there's no "automatic" switch from PPC to 68k), which will need exeuctable memory (hence no stack or buffer can supply that). Of course, replacing the return address of a 68k call with another one will still work, however, you do need 68k code to execute your 68k code in the first place. It's not possible in a "normal" PPC environment.

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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 12:36:38
#84 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@EntilZha


Dude - I was just trying to explain what Athiest meant.. He's the one who was saying best not say anything less the opposition pinch ideas.

As for all the code stuff - and execute enabled stuff... Im clueless as to what it means.

I just want an OS I can use, and does what it says on the tin

2 Days dude - then you get Beer

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Geri 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 13:47:45
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 2038
From: ST/AT

@CodeSmith, EntilZha

How about implementing this functionality in the identify.library (returns hardware infos about the motherboard, Zorro cards, etc..) that is already available for the classic AmigaOS?

Is there something planned like the sysinfo.library (Executive or SysMon) or the proc-handler? Both return information about the tasks, CPU usage (sysinfo) and so on either through library calls or a virtual filesystem?

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EntilZha 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 20:23:23
#86 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 27-Aug-2003
Posts: 1679
From: The Jedi Academy, Yavin 4

@Geri

Quote:
Is there something planned like the sysinfo.library (Executive or SysMon) or the proc-handler? Both return information about the tasks, CPU usage (sysinfo) and so on either through library calls or a virtual filesystem?


Nothing concretely planned yet...

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"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

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ihatewestlife2002 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 20:35:19
#87 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Sep-2003
Posts: 830
From: Scotland....only a bit further south!

@Bobsonsirjonny

What are they talking about? An alien lanuage!!?!?

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 21:13:14
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@ihatewestlife2002

... Right.

Athiest said something along the lines of "are you sure you should be discussing stuff like this in an open forum cos other ppl may steal the ideas generated here"

Entilzha asked what did Athiest mean by that..

So I gave an explanation saying I think Athiest is a bit paranoid about M$ et all pinching ideas and should M$ want to pinch an idea here is one involving custard etc... it was an attempt at humour.. but in hindsight it wasnt funny....

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mjohnson 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 21:23:45
#89 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2003
Posts: 1297
From: going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:
it was an attempt at humour.. but in hindsight it wasnt funny....

Including M$ in any discussion kinda has that effect, y'know?

Besides, they won't even have to steal the ideas anymore and actually use them, they can just patent them to halt the competition, couldn't they?

Mmmmm, paateeent, grrrllll...

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A1G4XE, OS4-pre

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tomazkid 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 22:25:09
#90 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@mjohnson

Quote:
Mmmmm, paateeent, grrrllll...


Scene at the M$ offices:
Bill; Oh, that Amiga-thingy, have we got those patents yet, so we can shut them down?
And Sun and OpenOffice and Mozilla and and and .......

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ihatewestlife2002 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 22:31:23
#91 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 22-Sep-2003
Posts: 830
From: Scotland....only a bit further south!

@Bobsonsirjonny

It was funny to me mate lol! I thaught u were serious until the disclaimer hehe

--EDIT-- M$ Isn't funny! Windows is a toy!

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CodeSmith 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 23:03:45
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@ihatewestlife2002

Hehe, it's not quite that bad. A "buffer overrun" is a side effect of one of the design tradeoffs of the C and C++ languages. It trades a speed increase for some safety (most other languages, other than assembly, chose safety instead ). Basically, if you trust someone to give you 100 bytes and he gives you 110, and you don't explicitly check that he gave you 100 bytes, your 100 byte buffer will overrun, and the ten bytes stored after your buffer will get overwritten with the extra ten bytes you got. Normally the result of this is a crash, but in some cases, if you carefully pick what goes in the extra bytes, you can take control of the program that's running. This is how pretty much every single Windows internet worm propagates itself. There's a communications port open to the internet, and the software taking data from that port doesn't check everything that comes in as carefully as it should. So all you have to do is send that port a carefully-crafted message, and the server's 0wn3d.

If you do what I suggested to EntilZha (and which btw I'm extatic that they have in there) will make that sort of attack a lot harder to do. It won't be impossible, but it raises the difficulty level a lot. BSD has had this for some time (I don't know about Linux, but probably), and Microsoft is going to put it into SP2 for Windows XP. The downside with the MS implementation is that it only works on AMD CPUs (it uses something called the NX bit, that Intel CPUs don't have yet). Unsurprisingly, PPCs have had it for a while

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DrBombcrater 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 23:03:54
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:
I think he means "Keep mum cos careless talk costs lives".... M$ may be reading this thread and pinch ideas... Amiparanoia me thinks...

In this specific case MS are already working on a similar system. From service pack 2 Windows XP will support the NX or 'No Execute' bit found on 64-bit AMD processors (and future Intel ones) that prevents executution of code in pages with the NX bit set.

Of course, their implementation will suck compared to OS4, but that's life

@swoodall

Quote:
Hey, look ^^^. There's a perfectly good idea sitting there in the public domain for anyone in the world to implement...

I think such a system is a good idea but it would be fairly useless on the A1 because VIA totally refuse to publically give out the documentation required to access the 686B's thermal and fan speed sensors. No doubt someone will work it out in the end but given the highly dodgy design of the A1 I have doubts that the sensors are actually present and working.

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amipal 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 19-May-2004 23:36:43
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 1900
From: Saltdean, East Sussex, UK

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:
I just want an OS I can use, and does what it says on the tin

2 Days dude - then you get Beer


I think WE'LL be buying the drinks for EntilZha and Co.!!!

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After a decade away from the scene, I am back!

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swoodall 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 0:02:29
#95 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 248
From: Raleigh NC, USA

@DrBombcrater

VIA have published the chip docs which list all the registers and so forth, and there are open-source projects which work with this chip using these sensors. I don't expect that the A1 board has any of the external sensor pins wired out to a socket or header where they could be usefully expanded (unless you have a brave heart and a steady hand with a soldering gun)., but at least any internal voltage and temp sensors should work.

The lm_sensors web page has the source and some driver info for the VIA686. I haven't been motivated enough to integrate all the pieces into the kernel needed to try this in linux, but if we get an updated kernel before long it may have the i2c/smbus parts included to make this integrate easier.

Scott Woodall

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DrBombcrater 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 2:20:23
#96 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@swoodall

Quote:
VIA have published the chip docs which list all the registers and so forth

Can you provide a link to them? I've never been able to find register level docs for the 686 family, and I know the author of a Windows sensor util asked for them and was basically told to 'sod off' by VIA.

Quote:
I haven't been motivated enough to integrate all the pieces into the kernel needed to try this in linux, but if we get an updated kernel before long it may have the i2c/smbus parts included to make this integrate easier.

I tried lm_sensors some time ago on my A1-SE and it failed to find any sensor hardware, even with the required i2c support stuff in place.

I'm dubious about how useful it will be anyway. The fan headers on the A1 don't appear to support a pulse line so fan-speed monitoring won't work and there's no external CPU temperature sensor (on my A1, at least).

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swoodall 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 7:36:37
#97 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 248
From: Raleigh NC, USA

@DrBombcrater

There is a copy of the VIA doc in an archive of H/W docs that was on the a1g3dev site with the mailing list. That may be defunct now too, I haven't checked. Anyway there is a more recent version that was posted by a VIA employee as an attachment to a message on the lm-sensors mailing list. After taking another look, it appears that there isn't an internal temp sensor there either, just voltage. I may have to take a soldering iron to this thing yet...

Scott Woodall

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Hammer 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 7:45:24
#98 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4245
From: Australia

@CodeSmith

Quote:
(it uses something called the NX bit, that Intel CPUs don't have yet).


Note that Intel will enable NX equivalent instructions in their Prescott Cores i.e.
Intel labels thier "NX" instructions as "XD" (sigh).

References
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=15915

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CodeSmith 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 9:18:08
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Hammer

Ah yes, intel's "Opteron by any other name" CPU I'd forgotten about that.

I don't think the guy who told Andy Grove "sir, we have no choice. We have to sell AMD clones or lose out" will ever forget that day

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Bobsonsirjonny 
Re: Does AOS4 support ALTIVEC?
Posted on 20-May-2004 10:39:21
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2003
Posts: 2880
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@Hammer

Ah yes, intel's "Opteron by any other name" CPU I'd forgotten about that.

I don't think the guy who told Andy Grove "sir, we have no choice. We have to sell AMD clones or lose out" will ever forget that day



Hehe - the underdog is biteing then

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