Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6014 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
35 crawler(s) on-line.
 19 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 zErec:  7 mins ago
 towo2099:  18 mins ago
 nbache:  18 mins ago
 ilbarbax:  25 mins ago
 t0lkien:  29 mins ago
 Fifichang853:  31 mins ago
 Fl@sh:  54 mins ago
 Frank:  59 mins ago
 Mobileconnect:  1 hr 13 mins ago
 MEGA_RJ_MICAL:  2 hrs 17 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga General Chat
      /  Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Register To Post

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 Next Page )
Poll : Have Amiga's biggest assets become liabilities?
Yes
No
I don't care, I'm just along for the ride.
The relationship is complicated. (Explain)
 
PosterThread
Samurai_Crow 
Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 19:34:47
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2275
From: Minnesota, USA

The first thing to go away was the famous Amiga graphics and sound chipset. Now AmigaOS 4.1fe is falling way behind MorphOS. The only saving grace of OS 4.1fe is the third-party graphics drivers which are not standard to all cards or hardware. AmigaOS 3.2 is out but the Vampire team has already shipped their stand-alone unit with an AROS fork. The famous Amiga name is associated with a curse. None of the Amiga-likes have multicore support. This all begs the question: Have the biggest assets of the Amiga architecture become liabilities?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 20:49:30
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11705
From: Norway

@Samurai_Crow

It’s not falling way behind MorphOS, we just got UVD and shader support, and really good 3D support, we have had compostion support for YUV422 video for long time now. Yes, there are some areas that needs work.

But that complete different from your question, other subject is AmigaOS a liability yes 13 years of legal dispute says so. Ownership and funding need to be solved.

As long is I can buy it, I will buy it, when I can’t buy it, I already own my copy, not a big problem for me personally, updates till be coming from AEON, but in the long run we need legal OS, that can be sold without legality disputes. How that happens in the legal system, or outside of legal system, is irrelevant.

instead of setting up AROS vs MorphOS vs AmigaOS, I think this period can be a opportunity, for cooperation, not saying everything should be open source, but not everything needs to be commercial, using some of the same components can be easier for developers for example. Clearly there are some things that need funding, like driver and innovation, it can happen without, but its lot less likely, then if someone is paying someone to do it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 08:53 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Jun-2021 at 08:50 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
amigadave 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 3-Jun-2021 23:49:25
#3 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Jul-2005
Posts: 1692
From: Lake Shastina, Northern Calif.

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
The first thing to go away was the famous Amiga graphics and sound chipset. Now AmigaOS 4.1fe is falling way behind MorphOS. The only saving grace of OS 4.1fe is the third-party graphics drivers which are not standard to all cards or hardware. AmigaOS 3.2 is out but the Vampire team has already shipped their stand-alone unit with an AROS fork. The famous Amiga name is associated with a curse. None of the Amiga-likes have multicore support. This all begs the question: Have the biggest assets of the Amiga architecture become liabilities?


After all this time, I think the only asset Amiga has, is the community. Not the source code or the trademarks, or copyrights, just what remains of the community, who won't let the legacy of the Amiga die. So for me, I don't see the Amiga assets as being a liability, I still think that this community is a great asset, even if it is divided into separate camps, we all share the same origins and great history. We all share some form of a belief that the Amiga should have been more, or could have been more successful, if it had been managed and marketed differently. As time marches on, the old Amiga source code, copyrights and trademarks, becomes less and less important, which makes it even more surprising that such large amounts of money are spent fighting over the scraps that are left. Those scraps are even less valuable as the community becomes more and more fractured, into splinter groups, who are able to enjoy different Amiga variants, without any need of the official trademarked names, or the old Amiga source code.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
QuikSanz 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 4-Jun-2021 0:41:27
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1137
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@amigadave,

Couldn't have said it better Dave..

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
HammerD 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 4-Jun-2021 21:02:56
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 909
From: Ontario, Canada

@amigadave

I think OS3 source is still an asset - look at the demand for AmigaOS 3.2, it appears to be very healthy.

OS4 source also.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BigD 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 4-Jun-2021 23:06:23
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5768
From: UK

@amigadave

Quote:
After all this time, I think the only asset Amiga has, is the community. Not the source code or the trademarks, or copyrights, just what remains of the community, who won't let the legacy of the Amiga die. So for me, I don't see the Amiga assets as being a liability, I still think that this community is a great asset, even if it is divided into separate camps, we all share the same origins and great history.


The perfect answer.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
BigD 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 4-Jun-2021 23:14:39
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 5768
From: UK

@HammerD

Quote:
I think OS3 source is still an asset - look at the demand for AmigaOS 3.2, it appears to be very healthy


Is it healthy for us to support a good product that is brought into being because people are prepared to work for free to prop up a company that wants to perpetuate the status quo?

Should we support and enjoy the product even though the money given is then used to subsidise a ridiculously low price for Amiga OS 4.x because there’s no further plans to update it and it’s easier to back port code to 68k then code new stuff?

Should we allow the profit from our AmigaOS 3.2 purchases be used to fight IP battles?

Is this really a healthy market?

Last edited by BigD on 04-Jun-2021 at 11:17 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 6-Jun-2021 16:34:44
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4146
From: Australia

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@HammerD

Quote:
I think OS3 source is still an asset - look at the demand for AmigaOS 3.2, it appears to be very healthy


Is it healthy for us to support a good product that is brought into being because people are prepared to work for free to prop up a company that wants to perpetuate the status quo?

Should we support and enjoy the product even though the money given is then used to subsidise a ridiculously low price for Amiga OS 4.x because there’s no further plans to update it and it’s easier to back port code to 68k then code new stuff?

Should we allow the profit from our AmigaOS 3.2 purchases be used to fight IP battles?

Is this really a healthy market?

Healthy market? Amiga market is a zombie i.e. the living dead.

I already brought AF2016/AOS 4.1 FE for classic, AOS3.14 (Y2020), AOS3.2 (Y2021), Wicher 508i(Y2020), cheap A1200 Rev 1D4 (Y2020, sold for parts but it's working), Amigakit's A1200 8MB expansion (in Y2020), TF1260 (68LC060 included, but I also brought a separate 68060 in Y2021, both products are in transit). Most products are 68K based. One should able to see 68K market is better than the PowerPC AmigaOS market.

Offer alternative products as mentioned above.

The 68K related product's prices are below the threshold that will not affect my PC gaming hardware (e.g. RTX 3080 Ti purchase, 4K LG gaming monitors) and house extension construction.





Last edited by Hammer on 06-Jun-2021 at 04:36 PM.

_________________
Intel Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GX Trio
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 EVO OC
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
HammerD 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 6-Jun-2021 22:36:38
#9 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 909
From: Ontario, Canada

@Hammer and @BigD

Well I get it, people are cynical, pissed off, upset....neverending lawsuits going on it seems.

But for me, I am having fun, using the new products, enjoying OS 3.2 and 4.x, and MorphOS. Playing with my Vampires....lots of stuff to do. Actually too much to do and tinker with and not enough time in my case!

So from my perspective it is active and healthy, the most it's been (at least in the classic scene) in a long time. We've got lots of new hardware coming out. The OS is being updated still, Picasso 96 updated still...Vampires, Buffee's Terrible Fire accelerators, Warp accelerators, AA3000+ with DSP working...A4000TX new boards...it's really quite amazing actually.

There is a huge amount of activity on Facebook, Youtube and Discord regarding all things Amiga. And the overwhelming majority of it is all positive from what I can see.

I am not expecting the Amiga scene to ever become mainstream again, nor compete speed wise or feature wise with MacOS or Windows. But as a retro scene it is very active and there is lots to do. If I want to use Windows I certainly can on my PC.


Last edited by HammerD on 06-Jun-2021 at 10:40 PM.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 7-Jun-2021 6:29:16
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4146
From: Australia

@HammerD,

My zombie comment is relative to mainstream. Amiga's 68K retro market health is better than Amiga's PowerPC market health.

FYI, I have purchased TF1260 from a Facebook group and I have seen TF1200 Buffee prototype from TF forums.

Buffee is an ARM Cortext A8-based SoC with drop-in 68000 64 DIP replacement. ARM Cortext A8-based SoC emulates 68K via the instruction translation table method.

Buffee is a pun on Buffy - the Vampire Slayer.

My zombie comment also a pun on Buffy and Vampires.

I'm also interested in Buffee as a follow-on upgrade for my A500's Wicher, but IDE support is important due to flash storage requirement.

Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jun-2021 at 06:33 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Jun-2021 at 06:29 AM.

_________________
Intel Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GX Trio
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 EVO OC
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
agami 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 9-Jun-2021 6:47:18
#11 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 595
From: Melbourne, Australia

@poll

Most of what was innovative and industry leading at one point has long since been copied, emulated, mimicked, and in for the most part surpassed by others.

What were once assets are definitely now liabilities. The past has become more precious than the future. If you count the Amiga Community as an asset, then I'm happy to include them as part of the liabilities. The community is divided across camps and ideologies.

There was an opportunity in the late '90s and perhaps early 2000s to make a go at a comeback. The assets then were much less of a liability. Since then, each year has widened the chasm between contemporary computing and what Amiga assets can yield.

There are probably a small handful of hidden gems in some of the implementations within the classic OS that could still be considered as assets. Alas, they're locked away by greedy people.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
FairBoy 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 9-Jun-2021 13:29:10
#12 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2020
Posts: 36
From: Unknown

@Samurai_Crow
Quote:
The only saving grace of OS 4.1fe is the third-party graphics drivers which are not standard to all cards or hardware

Please, in all fairness, as long as MorphOS doesn't offer graphics capabilities of not even anywhere near similar quality, be it 3rd party or not, I'd better rethink that "falling behing" statement if I were you.
If you were an AOS4-fanboy instead you could have said

"Now MorphOS is falling way behind AOS4. The only saving grace of MOS is a limited port of an open-source browser engine with a minimalistic UI."

and it would be just as true and at the same time an equally dumb biased statement as the one I quoted.
Other than that this poll disqualified itself by not providing a pancakes option which would actually be the only reasonable item to select.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Samurai_Crow 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 1:48:07
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2003
Posts: 2275
From: Minnesota, USA

@FairBoy

I used to be an Amiga fanboy. I paid $1400 USD for my MicroA1 back in the day. I got a used G4 Mac Mini without PSU fo $50 USD, MorphOS license for $90 and scrounged a PSU from my old Core2 Duo Mac Mini. Unless that PSU was worth $1200 I can afford to be a little lower in my expectations. How much does an AmigaOne model with an up-to-date graphics card and drivers go for nowadays?

I do have a 6-year-old i7 gaming rig but even running it on a freebie Linux install it outperforms an x1000, I'm pretty sure. The x1000 is dual-core but running a freebie install of Linux on it uses both cores. Neither MorphOS nor AmigaOS 4.1fe support the second core on an x5000. Face it, the operating system is the limiting factor.

For my OS pursuits I've moved on to Haiku. It was pervasively multicore from the beginning; it's the open-source spinoff of the BeBox.

As for my Amiga aspirations, I still have a couple classics around for the real Amiga software. The MicroA1 sits in a corner. My MorphOS box sees occasional use. My SiDi should be traded off in favor of a MISTer so I could develop tweaks in the chipset core.

In short, I'm still keeping my Amiga stuff for now but the OS holds no fascination for me. It's too obsolete. The chipset held more fascination for me back in the day because it was unique. It's also too obsolete. The assets are so much of a liability that they aren't worth too much to me.

By excluding the "pancakes" option in favor of an "I'm just along for the ride" option, the poll results came out pretty much in-line with my expectations.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
matthey 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 2:37:01
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 990
From: Kansas

Samurai_Crow Quote:

As for my Amiga aspirations, I still have a couple classics around for the real Amiga software. The MicroA1 sits in a corner. My MorphOS box sees occasional use. My SiDi should be traded off in favor of a MISTer so I could develop tweaks in the chipset core.

In short, I'm still keeping my Amiga stuff for now but the OS holds no fascination for me. It's too obsolete. The chipset held more fascination for me back in the day because it was unique. It's also too obsolete. The assets are so much of a liability that they aren't worth too much to me.


The Amiga custom chips are minimal logic which can all fit in one chip and allow a descent library of Amiga software to be used. The Amiga custom chips fit in a $10 FPGA and the logic could cost less than $1 in an ASIC. Modern support and enhancements can be made like support for digital video output (HDMI), higher resolutions, chunky graphics, 16 bit sound, better sprite support, etc. while retaining compatibility as demonstrated by SAGA. I believe even 3D hardware support could be added. SAGA has been a success and works well even from affordable FPGAs. It is the CPU cores which have limited performance in affordable FPGAs and hold back FPGA Amiga replacement projects. I say asset on the Amiga custom chips. Amiga hardware doesn't have to use the custom chips but then it costs more for similar functionality in other hardware and software compatibility is lost.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 4:04:14
#15 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 888
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@agami

Quote:
There are probably a small handful of hidden gems in some of the implementations within the classic OS that could still be considered as assets.

I really miss assign's. Being able to redefine C:, instead of dumping symbolic links in /Applications or /usr/local/bin, is so much more elegant.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Hammer 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 4:41:54
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 4146
From: Australia

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:

Samurai_Crow wrote:
@FairBoy

I used to be an Amiga fanboy. I paid $1400 USD for my MicroA1 back in the day. I got a used G4 Mac Mini without PSU fo $50 USD, MorphOS license for $90 and scrounged a PSU from my old Core2 Duo Mac Mini. Unless that PSU was worth $1200 I can afford to be a little lower in my expectations. How much does an AmigaOne model with an up-to-date graphics card and drivers go for nowadays?

I do have a 6-year-old i7 gaming rig but even running it on a freebie Linux install it outperforms an x1000, I'm pretty sure. The x1000 is dual-core but running a freebie install of Linux on it uses both cores. Neither MorphOS nor AmigaOS 4.1fe support the second core on an x5000. Face it, the operating system is the limiting factor.


The latest X86 CPUs still have "uber" single thread performance mode due to non-DX12 PC gaming benchmark marketing. For small thread count workloads, the CPU will attempt to use the available TDP headroom for auto-overclock boost mode.

Intel Haswell CPU like Core i7-4770K will crush X1000's dual-core PWRficient PA6T-1682M.

6-year-old Core i7 is the Skylake generation e.g. Core i7-6700K

_________________
Intel Core i9-9900K, DDR4-3800 32 GB RAM, MSI GeForce RTX 2080 Ti GX Trio
AMD Ryzen 9 3900X, DDR4-3200 32 GB RAM, ASUS GeForce RTX 2080 EVO OC
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, TF1260, 128 MB)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, 68K 50Mhz, 12 MB RAM)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
simplex 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 6:12:32
#17 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 5-Oct-2003
Posts: 888
From: Hattiesburg, MS

@Samurai_Crow

Quote:
For my OS pursuits I've moved on to Haiku. It was pervasively multicore from the beginning; it's the open-source spinoff of the BeBox.

How do you like Haiku? I tried it some years ago but it wasn't far along enough for me to accomplish the work I need to do. I don't remember the details, though.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
petrol 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 7:25:31
#18 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Jun-2004
Posts: 406
From: France

PAsemi 1682M was launched in 2007 and it was allready outdated when it was used in the X1000 11 years ago.
It should be compare to an intel core duo or core 2 duo cpu at the same frequency range imho.

Regards,

Last edited by petrol on 10-Jun-2021 at 08:05 AM.
Last edited by petrol on 10-Jun-2021 at 08:02 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 17:50:10
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11705
From: Norway

@petrol



That’s true but curve is flattening, you are no longer getting doubling in speed every year, sure more cores, but that’s only useful if software that take advantage of more cores.

when comes to office product you basically do what ever you need back in 1994.

Wii U was only a 1.24 Ghz, that was sold from 1012 to 2017, and it really popular, so as gaming platform 1.8Ghz, was not too bad in 2017, and lot about gaming is also about GPU.

The Web is mostly GPU and Memory intensive, yes sure it help with web assembly, JS JIT and so on, and I agree, anyway most web pages do not need 100% CPU and 100 FPS, sure there is market for Games written in JavaScript and that use WebGL and so on.

Video playback is now done by GPU/UVD and prensted by GPU/YUV422, you can play full HD videos now on Sam460 if you have a good graphics card.

Lots people happy with MC68060 @ 50Mhz, for what its used for, and I say that PA-Semi is pretty ok at 1.8Ghz for what it does.

The only really problem here is the price and availability. The X5040 the next major upgrade is almost at same class as my I5 PC, that had for years, and I’m not sure if I need to upgrade or not.

So the one thing that really missing here is SMP. and drivers for X,Y,Z.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 11:40 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 06:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 06:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 06:32 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 05:59 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 05:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jun-2021 at 05:50 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bison 
Re: Amiga assets: are they now liabilities?
Posted on 10-Jun-2021 20:00:10
#20 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1825
From: N-Space

@simplex

function assign

@Samurai_Crow

Haiku is indeed impressive. They seem to have enough developers to keep things rolling. AROS, alas...

Last edited by bison on 10-Jun-2021 at 08:02 PM.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle