Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6054 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Home
Features
News
Forums
Classifieds
Links
Downloads
Extras
OS4 Zone
IRC Network
AmigaWorld Radio
Newsfeed
Top Members
Amiga Dealers
Information
About Us
FAQs
Advertise
Polls
Terms of Service
Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
20 crawler(s) on-line.
 9 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 Karlos:  41 mins ago
 pixie:  45 mins ago
 Hypex:  57 mins ago
 Hammer:  1 hr 12 mins ago
 amigang:  2 hrs 8 mins ago
 cdimauro:  2 hrs 45 mins ago
 Musashi5150:  3 hrs 16 mins ago
 Maijestro:  4 hrs 2 mins ago
 t0lkien:  5 hrs 31 mins ago
 ppcamiga1:  5 hrs 32 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Classic Amiga Hardware
      /  The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )
PosterThread
BigGun 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 15:24:12
#141 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Aug-2005
Posts: 438
From: Germany (Black Forest)

Quote:


Would Cf code run on 68k?


There are two types of coldfire code you can create.

a) Coldfire 68k code that is coldfire clean and will fully run on older 68k CPUs too.

b) Coldfire code that uses Coldfire special features (e.g MAC or Saturation).

The first will create 68k applications that will run on all 68k/Coldfire CPUs.
The will run about as fast as normal 68k code on normal 68k CPUs
and they will run fast, smooth and without any traps on the Coldfire.

For example a later version of the Amiga Oberon compiler used to support the a) coldfire target.
I know people used to use it to develop programs on Amiga for Coldfire embedded systems.
The embedded OS was actually very close to Amiga OS.
You could run these Embedded apps on a normal Amiga even.


The second compiling method would give you an edge for time critical things.
For example by using the saturation commands you can good very good performance on certain video routines. On some routines these feature will have a nice impact.
I have seen some optimized coldfire functions which run very fast (actually better than on G3 PPC)

Cheers
Gunnar

_________________
APOLLO the new 68K : www.apollo-core.com

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
elatour 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 15:25:28
#142 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Crumb

Quote:
I already can do that with my CSPPC.

But can you get it repaired or another one of these if that one dies, which many of these have, and which yours will likely in the near future? Your classic will most likely end up as a boat anchor unless you can source a new CSPPC board or some other accelerator to make it worth using.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
hatschi 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 15:40:58
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Crumb

Quote:
@all coldfire fans


I am not a Coldfire-"fan", but a "fan" of a) Amiga Classic hardware b) any effort that rejuvenates the old hardware base and c) any company that is crazy enough to produce new hardware for this tiny geek-market.

Last edited by hatschi on 15-Nov-2006 at 03:41 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 16:12:08
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@elatour

Quote:
But can you get it repaired or another one of these if that one dies,


yes, a friend of mine repaired it. Now it works better than when it left the DCE factory. The uwscsi chip wasn't soldered correctly, just like the 060 socket.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 16:37:05
#145 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@BigGun

Quote:
If prefer not to trust Freescale but to base your coldfire knowledge
on piru then maybe you should at least care to read his post completely.


I read his messages completely

Quote:
Piru even gave examples of how the few misbehaving 68k instructions
can be patched in a way similar to oxypatcher. Something that you claimed that it will not work.


It may work with missing instructions, but how would you make that work with instructions that do not create an exception?

he explained that problem some time ago

and here too. He explains that there's no easy way to determine which part of the binary is code and which part is data so you can't patch that instructions.

Quote:
They range from slow but 100% working to fast but only working for 90% of the apps.


I still don't know where do you get that 90% of compatibility... have you searched all amiga 680x0 binaries? The statistics performed by Motorola/Freescale on code designed for embedded systems doesn't have to match with the code produced by SAS/C, LatticeC, AmigaE and other amiga compilers.

Quote:
But from seeing an alpha version of the Dragon you can not claim that it will be impossible for the Dragon to run most 68k apps as fast or faster as an 68060.


I can claim that they should make the 68k emulator at least 4-5 times faster to make it noticeable faster than a 68060/50.

Quote:
Before you bash the demoed alpha version of the Dragon, be fair and give them some time to better utilize the optimisation potential.


OK, but I seriously doubt they can improve much the speed if they don't create a JIT 68k emulator.

Quote:
Be fair to Elbox ang give them some time to bring out ColdfireKick 1.x


That won't make classic software that requires brute cpu force or simply doesn't use much the OS functions work faster.

If I launch starstruck from TBL will it run at all? Will it run faster than my 060/50Mhz? Will ArtEffect run faster than it runs now in my 060/50?

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Seer 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 17:19:05
#146 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@All,

I guess it's time to make OS3.95.
After that, we can make OS3.98.
And as a final release how about OS3.ME


Anyway, even if this board isn't (much) faster then a normal 68060 turbo card, shouldn't the hardware be cheaper ? Coldfire chips should be cheaper to get, you need more software to get it compatible offcourse, but how much added cost would that software be compared to a 68060 card with software ?

_________________
~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 18:01:03
#147 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4167
From: Rhode Island

uhm...

Why can't someone code a code analyzer that rebuilds an executable with the proper non-supported classic 68k commands translated to coldfire compatible ones?

Save this new executable and run it and see if it crashes. Eventually, you'd know where and why and could patch that.

As for libraries, they could be swappes with AROS libraries compiled for coldfire...

Eventually after much trial and error, your Amiga would be much faster.

In alot of Amiga software, there is only 1 main executable. A coldfire based 68k JIT compiler could possibly modified to do this.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Donar 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 15-Nov-2006 21:18:12
#148 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

Quote:
The point is that for many things the OS and workbench speed is the key factor.
Getting exec and gfxlib coldfire optimized is simple.


Hmm, exec lib is part of AfA OS as far as i know. Shouldn't the AfA source compile to Coldfire executable easily?

_________________
<- Amiga 1260 / CD ->
Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Donar 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 9:13:00
#149 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

I wonder if there were a ColdFire native OS it could have a 68k "sandbox" where programs that use the "forbidden" opcodes could run. Inside the "sandbox" it would be clear that not the Coldfire Opcode should be used but something that is similar to the 68k one. Opcodes that are the same could maybe run near/at native CF speed others have to be "emulated". Is this possible? Maybe people can then run their old Applications faster than on 060.

Bye

_________________
<- Amiga 1260 / CD ->
Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:11:26
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@Donar

I guess that running ColdFire apps without sandboxes or emulations on OS3.9 is more simple and could be done almost directly patching the OS, just like Amithlon or PowerUP loaded native software directly.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AmiDog 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:12:40
#151 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

@itix

Quote:
Quote:
But seriously, how much software actually performs a muliply or certain shift and then checks the overflow flag (or whatever flag it was)? For those few apps which actually does this, you could easily have a blacklist and use full emulation for them.

Problem is, you dont know.

Don't know what?

The amount of software with this problem? Well, time will tell.

Which software has this problem? If something doesn't work properly, just add it to the blacklist and try again. If it works now, then you know why it didn't work before.

Problem solved.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AmiDog 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:16:43
#152 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

@Crumb

Quote:
AFAIK you can't get a trap of instructions that already exist.

You are right. That's why you need the blacklist, to force a full emulation for software which requires it, no matter the reason (i.e. instructions behaving differently or using selfmodifying code). Problem solved.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AmiDog 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:19:42
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2004
Posts: 917
From: Kumla, Sweden

The only reason I can see for emulating everything would be if every single app used atleast one of the instructions which behave differently on ColdFire, and relies on the 68k way.

Ofcourse, Elbox might have choosen the safe route, having a whitelist for working software rather than a blacklist for nonworking software. A common way in the early stages of development.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Donar 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:28:58
#154 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

@Crumb

Quote:
I guess that running ColdFire apps without sandboxes or emulations on OS3.9 is more simple and could be done almost directly patching the OS, just like Amithlon or PowerUP loaded native software directly.


Oh i wanted to let the Coldfire Apps run without a sandbox. I'm only looking for a way for "you" (lets' agree: all of us) letting run an unpatched ArtEffect, putyourfavourite68kapphere, inside a "68k sandbox" at over 060 speed, maybe on a ColdFired OS.

Last edited by Donar on 16-Nov-2006 at 10:31 AM.
Last edited by Donar on 16-Nov-2006 at 10:30 AM.

_________________
<- Amiga 1260 / CD ->
Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 10:48:54
#155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@AmiDog

IMHO The whitelist approach would be better. I think that it's better to be sure that software will run even if it's slowly and later the user can try to add the apps to the whitelist to run them directly or almost directly (using something similar to oxypatcher) without the full emulation.

I guess they could even allow the user to change the hunk format of Coldfire-compatible apps (the ones that don't use the CF instructions that are the same but with different results) slightly (maybe changing one bit so it's not recognized directly as Hunk binary and it's recognized as Hunk-Coldfire-compatible binary) so it's not launched normally and there's no need to check out a long list of programs.

Last edited by Crumb on 16-Nov-2006 at 10:51 AM.
Last edited by Crumb on 16-Nov-2006 at 10:50 AM.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
yak 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 12:04:54
#156 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Mar-2006
Posts: 322
From: Bochum, Germany

A bunch of old and new info as posted here on PPA.pl.

This is a translation made by me, I'm not responsible for any mistakes and misunderstandings, although I tried my best.

Quote:
The organizers of AmiZaduszki show in Poland (Rafael/ARMO, wali7 i MaaG^dA) have gathered detailed informations (verified and confirmed by the manufacturer) about Dragon 1200, the new product of Elbox company.

For those of you who do not know, Dragon 1200 is a PCI/AGP busboard with integrated ColdFire processor for Amiga 1200. Dragon 1200 can also work as a standalone mainboard.

Features:
- CPU card as a separate module
- CPU on the card: MCF 5475 / 266 MHz (410 DMIPS according to Dhrystone 2.1), detailed informations about this processor are available here: http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MCF5475
- 5x PCI 2.2(3 x 2.2V, 2 x 5V) 33/66 MHz (from ColdFire) + 1 x AGP
- USB 2.0 (from ColdFire)
- 2x FastEthernet (from ColdFire)
- 2MB Flash
- the CPU card supports DDR-266 memory modules. The MCF5475 supports both SDR and DDR memory types. However, hardware based on MCF5475 can use only one of these memory types at once.
- there are two DDR module sockets on the CPU card (modules don't have to be paired)
- CPU card features a special connector which can work in one of two modes: JTAG or BDM
- Dragon 1200 will probably ship about the end of december 2006
- currently 68k applications work at about 68040 ~ 68060 speeds

In case of ColdFire processor, one cannot speak of emulation in the same way as in PPC processors. In case of ColdFire, only some instructions have to be emulated (just like it was with the 68060, when programs meant for lower 68k processors were executed on it). The speed of an application depends on how much (or if any at all) of such instructions it contains. In some 68k programs, there are a lot of them, other contain them only sporadicaly. So, one cannot say that programms written for 68k will work slower or faster than on 68060. Some of them will work slower, some faster. Applications compiled directly for MCF5475 will work many times faster than on 68060.

- Dragon is able to work as a separate mainboard but not with AmigaOS 3.9 becasue this system accesses the Amiga mainboard hardware. Mechanicaly, Dragon with PCI and AGP cards installed in prepared to be mounted in a standard ATX case.

- AROS porting is in progress
- AmigaOS 3.9 works
- a software to convert 68k asm-source to CF exists
- there is a GCC compiler for ColdFire

- price is 349 EUR (VAT excl.)
- special discount for users which give back their Mediator busboards is planned
- delays were caused by problems with the CPUs provided by Freescale
- also the 68k emulation libraries provided by Freescale didn't work

These libraries weren't written by Freescale but by a third party hired by Freescale for this job. They have two modes of operation: one for applications and one for a complete 68k OS (and in this mode they are causing problems).

- Dragon is aimed for users that want to enhance their Classic Amigas
- besides that, Dragon will be targeted at industrial market as a standalone board working with Linux (Freescale themselves are interested in this)
- a PowerPC option in form of a PCI card may appear for Dragon
- the Dragon CPU module doesn't have to be based on ColdFire processor, in future, it can be a different CPU

It would have to be a CPU with very sophisticated architecture of integrated peripherals (3.3V PCI bus and a Flexbus). The separation of CPU module was introduced mainly to enable easy upgrades to faster ColdFire processors (v4e core with higher clock rates and v5 core), as soon as they become available.

- the Dragon board isn't equipped with additional features such as IDE, SATA or sound in order not to limit the end user - apropriate PCI cards are available at low prices; thanks to this, the user decides what he needs exactly

If somebody wants to, feel free to make this a news item.

Best,
[Yak]

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Crumb 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 12:08:32
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@yak

thank you for the translation. The possibility of running AROS without an old miggy is quite interesting...

These are also a good news for AROS crew as the code will be improved and AROS-Coldfire will come out from unmaintained

Last edited by Crumb on 16-Nov-2006 at 12:12 PM.

_________________
The only spanish amiga news web page/club: CUAZ

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
elatour 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 18:33:08
#158 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@yak

Hmmm... Maybe its my age, but I Idon't see anything in there about a JIT or some form of executable binary conversion, patching or recompilation option as someone else metionned earlier in this thread. Wonder whether this was missed in the details of the annoucement or whethet this will in fact not be included?

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Donar 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 18:58:45
#159 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Germany

Thanks yak.

Quote:
Hmmm... Maybe its my age, but I Idon't see anything in there about a JIT or some form of executable binary conversion, patching or recompilation option as someone else metionned earlier in this thread. Wonder whether this was missed in the details of the annoucement or whethet this will in fact not be included?

Don't know if i understood your question right, but here is my try for an answer:
As they seem to emulate a whole 68k patching would not be needed

Quote:
...They have two modes of operation: one for applications and one for a complete 68k OS (and in this mode they are causing problems).

The Only lib that Freescale bought from a third party i know of is the CF68kLib from MicroAPL, which can setup a virtual Machine on the Coldfire behaving like a 68k but without MMU and FPU. So i think they had problems with the 68k "Emulation" of it.


Quote:
These are also a good news for AROS crew as the code will be improved and AROS-Coldfire will come out from unmaintained

And we all hope that Elbox releases the source code, as they seem to have their own thoughts on licenses...

Bye

Last edited by Donar on 16-Nov-2006 at 07:10 PM.

_________________
<- Amiga 1260 / CD ->
Looking for:
A1200/CF CFV4/@200,256MB,eAGA,SATA,120GB,AROS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
elatour 
Re: The Dragon is stirring - at last!
Posted on 16-Nov-2006 19:51:01
#160 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Donar

Quote:
As they seem to emulate a whole 68k patching would not be needed

Ok, I must be dense then, which could very well be the case. I guess I was referring to BigGun's stated option b in a previous post in this thread "recompile existing executable using the executable only and using the software emulation lib" which seemed, at least to me, to imply that this meant either a form of patching or of recompiling of the executable from the orginal executable without using the source.

BTW: Is BigGun in any way afiliated to Elbox or in any way working or contributing to this Elbox project because I'm starting to get confused - which I have been known to get from time to time, like for instance how I got confused with Rogue's "official sounding" but not "actually official" Hyperion POVs and statements here in the past. Some people just seem to have an official air about them that sometimes leads us old folks to think that this is the official word from the horse's mouth. It would be nice to clear the air on this for some of us more dense and foggy brained old farts around here so nobody missinterprets things that people say as "official"

Last edited by elatour on 16-Nov-2006 at 07:59 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 16-Nov-2006 at 07:58 PM.

_________________
When swimming with sharks, make sure to bring lots of band-aids...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle