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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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PosterThread
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:51:04
#141 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2455
From: Unknown

@AMiGR

Quote:
Quote:
This *is* offensive
But I guess trying to explain you why would be just another waste of time...
/me sighs


Maybe I've missed something, I haven't *carefully* read the posts of this thread, but how is it offensive? I don't see any attacks towards your person.

OK, I'm about to disconnect so I cannot explain right now.
I promise I will do it ASAP in detail.
Basically, he's been answering continuously the same thing, dodging the license issue, which I presented to him in my very first reply. Now that somebody else mention the license, he comes up and says: "See? I told you! You didn't want to listen to me!". That's insulting because it makes me look like an idiot, after I patiently tried to explain him in detail everything, investing a lot of time and effort.

saimo

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Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 17:26:47
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2573
From: Unknown

@saimo

Yes, indeed you can replace all "Amy"'s with "Sam"
(the Amy is another story, which makes SAM actually look quite good)

There is a simple lesson to be learned from the Amiga-history (mind not only valid in Amiga-terms), if something is presented in what looks like a ready-to-market form, but isn't even powered up, one can bet that it is just ain't working. Wether that is due to some minor detail, or to an fatal error in design is up to speculation.

Also note that sofar noone has claimed that SAM would allready be working.

I should also remind you about what Jens Schönfeld had to report on the SAM, and indeed it's quite clear that SAM has still a very large part of it course before it ...

Now sure they may have gotten a few steps further in the last few weeks, maybe even as far as booting that proto, but even that optimistic speculation still leave the neede redesign to be done (something comparable to 2xZIF-Pegasos to Pegasos_I), nothing that can be done within weeks.

Add to that the needed OS4-port (sofar no word that Hyperion has the HW) and things like organizing/finazing a production run, and you well into 2nd quarter 07.

Oh, and McBill was very "excited"(tm) bout the Escena-A1,and the Pegasos-A1, 2 prime examples how being excited doesn't end up in a (combined) product

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 18:06:39
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
I don't know if it's because of language barriers, because you want to play games, because you don't want to listen to what I say, because you can't grasp it, because you are too tired, because you are answering in a hurry, because you are a cheerleader, because we live in different worlds, because we just cannot look at the same thing and see the same thing, because or whatever or a mix of whoknowswhat... anyway, I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over again and I feel I've already done my best to explain my reasons to you. The information contributed by me and other in this thread are sufficient to get a grasp of the situation between AInc and Genesi: if you *really* want know and understand, consider reading it.

Probably it's all my fault...
As for me being a cheerleader, that goes against you because the only reason you're not a cheerleader is because you have no reasons to cheer, and as for the leader you took others steps so nothing close of leadership, this without even going on the rudeness of that line of argumentation...

Last edited by pixie on 17-Dec-2006 at 09:08 PM.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 18:17:39
#144 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Rogue

Quote:

*shrugs* poop happens.


Gotta love this double standard attitude. How's that you pick up only the "prophecies" that didn't come true, and shrug at the ones that did come true?

Quote:

The same happened to Vista, so what?


Your problem is that the more time passes, the more unlikely you're able to sell AmigaOS4 to anyone. Of course, Vista won't incur in the same problem.

Last edited by falemagn on 17-Dec-2006 at 06:26 PM.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 18:24:31
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Rogue

Quote:

Last time I checked, this was the same for quite a while in Amiga history. I don't see the relation.


That's right, there's no revelation. And the fact you admit it casts even more doubts on the viability of your business plan (is there any at all?).

No, really, given that you agreed with the fact that "there's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already", how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?

Quote:

Well, good thing I have more imagination then. Let's leave it at this, regardless of what I would say now you would try to downplay it anyway.


If I try to downplay it and you are unable to prove me wrong, it just means I've got a case. If instead you can counterargument what I say, it means you have.

Last edited by falemagn on 17-Dec-2006 at 08:28 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 17-Dec-2006 at 06:29 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 17-Dec-2006 at 06:28 PM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 18:48:10
#146 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
Basically, he's been answering continuously the same thing, dodging the license issue, which I presented to him in my very first reply. Now that somebody else mention the license, he comes up and says: "See? I told you! You didn't want to listen to me!". That's insulting because it makes me look like an idiot, after I patiently tried to explain him in detail everything, investing a lot of time and effort.

There's a quoting system that would help your cause if you went on the trouble of using instead of pointing out fingers...

As for your patiently explaining lets just see what on earth are you talking about.

======================================================

Quote:
THMG:
(speculations)I can also understand if things today aren't exactly "in sync" with what Amiga Inc is prepared to pay (according to the contract) for their "buy back" option. And then McEwens talk about lawyers, etc. It would be interesting to hear some clarifications about this. Rogue? Am I right, or am I hopelessly lost?

The interesting thing here though IMHO (in the context of this thread) is whether Genesi could actually help things out for the OS4 team or not?

Quote:
saimo:
OK, now that the main point of the thread has been dissected to death and that the thread has digressed, let's discuss this topic that you are introducing for the second time - but I take your final silence about the main point of the thread as an acceptance of what has been illustrated to you.

Would you please explain what makes you think that Genesi could help the OS4 team (assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have)? You must have an idea, a spark in your mind. Or is it just a random/wishful/cheerleaderish idea?


To which I replying to the last part by saying
me:
Let's start by saying they could provide the hardware...

saimo:
Which is not a possibility because AInc does not give a license to Genesi and/or Genesi does not want to buy one (in fact, Genesi, as recently said by bbrv themselves in another thread here, intends to insist on the hopeless and false point that they already have a license).

Any other viable idea?


Quote:
me:
I assumed you were questioning what Could Genesi do for Amiga OS 4 team, namely on how... and again I think you pose the very same question when referring on 'assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have'
Quote:
saimo:
No need to assume or extrapolate anything. takemehomegrandma was throwing around the thought that maybe Genesi could help (not only here, but also here) and I basically asked "How so?". Then you answered my question by saying that Genesi could provide the hardware. I replied saying that (and explaining why) that's not a possibility, and asked for some other idea.
That was it. Very simple.

Now, why do you *again* repeat that

Genesi could help them bringing more hardware...

Quote:
when that point has already been answered?

Since you quoted me, you have read at least a part of what I wrote. Did you read my *whole* reply? If not, please do it now and consider reading every part of what people tell you; if you did, then consider that deliberately re-stating your point without addressing those that counter it is not correct nor nice.

That said, if you have any *other* idea on how Genesi could help AOS4 team, feel free to share it with us

edit: when checking the correctness of the links in my post I noticed that the quote "assuming that the OS4 team actually needs some form of help they don't already have" belongs to my original question to takemehomegrandma! What game are you playing? You skipped my reply to you *altogether* and resorted to a trick to re-state your point! That's incredible and unrespectful. That's pure trolling.


but namely it could help the users or wanna be users... but who cares about them anyway...
Quote:
Please keep the innuendoes to yourself.
And please note that this is not a port-AOS4-to-EFIKA / EFIKA-can-save-AOS4 thread.

Last edited by pixie on 17-Dec-2006 at 06:49 PM.

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stew 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 19:29:28
#147 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@saimo

I don't want to disrespect you or pile on as others have done. I really don't see how trokia, Ack, SAM, Panda, ect.. has more to offer than Genesi's Efika. None of them have a license. They maybe working towards one now, we don't know that anymore than Genesi is.
If AI granted a license to Genesi would it ruin OS4? Would the hard work of those at Hyperion be any less? Would your hatred for BB cause you to no longer see any benefit or use for OS4? That is the way you look to some of us. We want decent hardware sooner rather than later. Maybe you think eyetech were good guys but I don't and think I would feel much more comfortable buying a Genesi board any day.
I can see some saying I would never support anything that BB is involved with . With that reasoning I can't see supporting anything AI (include Eyetech also) has done either then.

Last edited by stew on 17-Dec-2006 at 09:15 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 23:38:35
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2455
From: Unknown

@AMiGR

Quote:
saimo wrote:

OK, I'm about to disconnect so I cannot explain right now.
I promise I will do it ASAP in detail.
Basically, he's been answering continuously the same thing, dodging the license issue, which I presented to him in my very first reply. Now that somebody else mention the license, he comes up and says: "See? I told you! You didn't want to listen to me!". That's insulting because it makes me look like an idiot, after I patiently tried to explain him in detail everything, investing a lot of time and effort.

Here I am as promised. I'll try to keep it short, but I'm afraid that to have the full picture you'll have to read the whole thread starting from the first post I report below.


  • In post #102 is where I pose my question (how?) to takemehomegrandma, who was wondering whether Genesi can help.
  • In post #103, pixie replied that Genesi could provide the hardware.
  • In post #104 I explain to him that his answer is not good because of the license obstacle.
  • In post #105 re-states his point, totally ignoring my reply and even quoting a piece from my initial post (#102).
  • In post #107 I explained in detail how bad his behaviour was.
  • In post #108 he simply answered "Ok m8...", which I interpreted as an acknowledgement;
  • In post #117 pixie returns with the same argument, quoting a piece of my reply to lgn (post #114) and quoting my post #107, which he had previously replied to with "Ok m8".
  • In post #123 again I patiently answer him point-by-point.
  • In the meanwhile, nobody managed to answer my question - BTW, the person it was originally directed to did not even show up - except those who repeated pixie's argument. Finally, in post #125, IonMane points out the obvious, i.e. that before we even start talking about Genesi helping out the AOS4 team, Genesi should get a license.
  • pixie's post #130 really made me feel like I was wasting my time, so I only presented a general remark in post #136 with the intention of closing the debate between pixie and me because it was a boring and added nothing to the thread.
  • But, let's take a step back: pixie made the post #131, where he tells me something along "See? I told you... if Genesi has a license *can* help"... when he not only had *never* said such a thing before, but he had even ignored my very first reply, in which I stressed clearly that the license issue is a key point.
  • Post #137 is the one where I say that his last post is offensive.

I have to repeat that to really get a grasp of the whole story the only solution is - heh - reading the whole story (which, BTW, includes attacks from other people as well, which I took care to underline and answer in a civilized manner).

Sorry if it sounds boring and stupid, but I do feel like there's been a huge amount of trolling.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 0:14:12
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2455
From: Unknown

@stew

Quote:
I don't want to disrespect you or pile on as others have done.

That's OK (you did't even need such an introduction ).
I'll make a little introduction myself: the thread is digressing even more, so I'll go with the flow...

Quote:
I really don't see how trokia, Ack, SAM, Panda, ect.. has more to offer than Genesi's Efika.

Well, just to be clear, I *never* stated that others have more to offer than Genesi's EFIKA. Where you got that notion from, I don't know.

Quote:
None of them have a license.

According to what publically known, that's true. But that does not mean they're all on the same level

Quote:
They maybe working towards one now, we don't know that anymore than Genesi is.

But recently bbrv repeated that he wants to exploit his AmigaDE license in order to get AOS4 on his boards, whereas, f.ex., the most recent statement of McEwen and of SAM developers (some of which, BTW, are also *AOS4* developers) point in a promising direction - again, I cannot speak on behalf of developers, so it's up to them to provide the full and correct information.
This situation makes it quite likely that SAM has much more possibilities than any other board produced by Genesi - actually, knowing the past history between AInc and Genesi, I'd say that any other board on the planet has more chances than Genesi's.
We don't know, it's true, but we can form a reasonable idea.

Quote:
If AI granted a license to Genesi would it ruin OS4?

The possibility itself of running AOS4 on Genesi's boards would be certainly a very good thing for AOS4, Hyperion, Amiga, Genesi and the whole community. Unfortunately, being bbrv involved in the process, I'd be worried about the possible side-effects the relationship may have - no, I'm not going into explaining why: I've already done it elsewhere and, anyway, it's completely obvious.
That said, where did you see me saying that a license to Genesi would ruin AOS4?

Quote:
Would the hard work of those at Hyperion be any less?

Where did you see me saying something like this?

Quote:
Would your hatred for BB cause you to no longer see any benefit or use for OS4?

Do you think I'm a blind idiot?

Quote:
That is the way you look to some of us.

That's because you've given more weight to the words of people attacking me than to my own words. Don't look at assumptions, don't make logic-leaps, don't give for granted: just read what I say without reading too much between the lines and you'll discover I'm not the blind follower somebody wants to make me look like.

Quote:
We want decent hardware sooner rather than later.

I want decent hardware sooner *and* later

Quote:
Maybe you think eyetech were good guys

See? Assumptions. I can't remember a *single* time where I expressed my opinion on Eyetech.

Quote:
but I don't and think I would feel much more comfortable buying a Genesi board any day.

Feel free.

Quote:
I can see some saying I would never support anything that BB is involved with .

I'm one of those.

Quote:
With that reasoning I can't see supporting anything AI (include Eyetech also) has done either then.

We don't live in a binary world.
I'm not really happy about AInc and Eyetech either, but that does not make them identical to bbrv*.

*please let's not turn this thread in "AInc VS Genesi: who's worse/better?".

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 0:29:28
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2455
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
There is a simple lesson to be learned from the Amiga-history (mind not only valid in Amiga-terms), if something is presented in what looks like a ready-to-market form, but isn't even powered up, one can bet that it is just ain't working. Wether that is due to some minor detail, or to an fatal error in design is up to speculation.

Also note that sofar noone has claimed that SAM would allready be working.

I should also remind you about what Jens Schönfeld had to report on the SAM, and indeed it's quite clear that SAM has still a very large part of it course before it ...

Now sure they may have gotten a few steps further in the last few weeks, maybe even as far as booting that proto, but even that optimistic speculation still leave the neede redesign to be done (something comparable to 2xZIF-Pegasos to Pegasos_I), nothing that can be done within weeks.

Let's wait for the developers themselves to answer to your concerns
BTW: Jens got a few things wrong and, from what I understand, there's more than he knew/said. Can't tell more, sorry. We've gotta wait for the developers.

Quote:
Add to that the needed OS4-port (sofar no word that Hyperion has the HW) and things like organizing/finazing a production run, and you well into 2nd quarter 07.

True, passing to the marketing phase takes time as well, but could be done smartly.
Just a side note: in the SAM project are involved also AOS4 developers (f.ex. a key component like Andrea Vallinotto), so SAM enjoys a sort of "special status" when it comes to porting AOS4 to it.

Quote:
Oh, and McBill was very "excited"(tm) bout the Escena-A1,and the Pegasos-A1, 2 prime examples how being excited doesn't end up in a (combined) product

And was it just the *very same* thing as with SAM?
History may give indications, not certainties for the future.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 0:31:58
#151 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2455
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@saimo

Quote:
I don't know if it's because of language barriers, because you want to play games, because you don't want to listen to what I say, because you can't grasp it, because you are too tired, because you are answering in a hurry, because you are a cheerleader, because we live in different worlds, because we just cannot look at the same thing and see the same thing, because or whatever or a mix of whoknowswhat... anyway, I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over again and I feel I've already done my best to explain my reasons to you. The information contributed by me and other in this thread are sufficient to get a grasp of the situation between AInc and Genesi: if you *really* want know and understand, consider reading it.

Probably it's all my fault...
As for me being a cheerleader, that goes against you because the only reason you're not a cheerleader is because you have no reasons to cheer, and as for the leader you took others steps so nothing close of leadership, this without even going on the rudeness of that line of argumentation...

*sigh*

saimo

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Richi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 0:37:39
#152 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2004
Posts: 158
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Honestly I'm only curious, if everything is so dark and lost: why are you still here?

There are so many forums around the world with many users really happy with their Windows and X86 systems, you would feel at home very quickly.

Richi

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stew 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 0:55:47
#153 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@saimo

OK I get what you are saying here. We will see how the hardware situation works out.

"please let's not turn this thread in "AInc VS Genesi: who's worse/better?."

Agreed, as it would never end and acomplish nothing. My only point was that Genesi does have something to offer (as much as Trokia ect..). Now as to if the cost of dealing with them would be worth it, or if they could be trusted, is another matter entirely.


I am sorry for reading things into what you posted.

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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 1:03:01
#154 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@Kronos

Yes, Amiga Inc. wants money for the hardware, and the OS. That is thier right. They are charging for use of the "name" on the end product. That is fair enough. The Amiga name still has a pretty wide brand recognition, despite what you may think.

Amiga Inc. also wants to ensure thier name is not attached to crap products and hence thier license scheme. This does not mean any of us agree with it, like it, or think this is the way to go about it.

Reality check here, it's thiers to do with what they like, and if the companies involved don't like it they dont have to do business.

Genesi is aware of these requirements, they want use of "the name" but are unwilling to pay the price for that use. Thats it in a nutshell. I know this for a fact.

Also, I never said they demanded AOS4 for free, I said they want it on thier system and want to use the "name" for free.

And this is why Genesi will not get a license(that and they would rather sue Amiga Inc. in a suit we all know is a load of tripe).If they changed thier position, decided to pony up and maybe apologized for these frivolous lawsuits they might get a license.

I would still be dubious due to thier past actions, I would be very careful doing business with a company that had tried what Genesi has.

As for the turnover issue, a company that has a turnover of 5000000 is not really that big a company to be honest. Norwhere has it been said that that turnover must come from boards......or even computer equipment. Turnover could come from frilly purple undies for all we have been told.

There is no doubt that this situation is all screwed up, and I have suggested several alternative in the past, but the fact remains that it is all under contract and changing the setup could be extremely difficult or impossible for all we know. At least for the time being.

No help will come of bleating about, only by following the requirements, which seems fine for everyone but Genesi.

Put up or shut up I say.

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IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 1:05:23
#155 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@stew

Woohoo stew!

Good post and kudos to the grace you have just shown :)

Good to see someone with some integrity around here :)

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 1:06:04
#156 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
Do you think I'm a blind idiot?

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 1:19:37
#157 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo
You got some serious issues understanding english* m8...
This and the problems you have towards me quoting you, it's unbelievable....

Care to explain on just on how, having access to Genesi hardware wouldn't benefit AmigaOS 4 team? And as a side note I don't see you pushing your agenda toward the others solutions which, despite all the good intentions don't have license from Amiga INC, and many don't have even hardware...

*I had a post detailed on your misunderstandings, but my computer went down, and this time firefox didn't recover as it used to, but people might well check from the links you provide, there's plenty of material to look at...

PS- while labeling others of trolls you start to resemble each day more with Atheist. Let me just ask you, trolling a troll isn't trolling?

NB- you still fail to answer just on how you find that remark offensive, is it because I'm not calling you a fanboy or a cheerleader? Because I don't accuse you of playing games? I don't know, if I done that would you feel better? More at ease with me? The need some have of mirrors...

Last edited by pixie on 18-Dec-2006 at 01:32 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 18-Dec-2006 at 01:20 AM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 1:36:33
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3165
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@IonMane

Quote:
Genesi is aware of these requirements, they want use of "the name" but are unwilling to pay the price for that use. Thats it in a nutshell. I know this for a fact.

Amiga treats one of his costumers [Genesi] by continuously diverging from what they had signed, do all the cheap shots possible, still Genesi are the ones blaming? It seems they have interest and already had paid for it, for the right of selling it with their hardware. Are they to blame that Amiga wasn't able to deliver? If they have nothing valuable at least they present something that is...

How safe would one be with a Amiga contract if Amiga keep changing its terms?

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Samwel 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 3:41:47
#159 ]
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Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
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@pixie

I think you and Saimo are tripping over semantics..

IMHO Saimo has been trying to tell you the following..

1. Yes of course *ANY* hardware would help the OS4 team. That's a given!
2. Genesi has *NO* chance as long as Amiga Inc. will *NOT* give them a licence or they refuse to pay for it, if that's what Amiga Inc. requires.
3. It may well be Hyperion that requires the cost of porting to be payed stopping any deal with Genesi. Simply, we don't know!
4. Thus can't Genesi be of any help for OS4 *IF* any of these conditions remain.

But I understand what you mean aswell. Yes, Genesi's hardware would of course help. That would be a way for them to help OS4.

H-J seems to have no problem with Genesi hardware (as has been told in this thread), so one could conclude that this is either a Amiga Inc. / Hyperion vs. Genesi problem.
But according to statements by H-J Hyperion seems unlikely to be the cause.

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Samwel 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 3:53:37
#160 ]
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Joined: 7-Apr-2004
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From: Sweden

@pixie

Quote:

Amiga treats one of his costumers [Genesi] by continuously diverging from what they had signed, do all the cheap shots possible, still Genesi are the ones blaming? It seems they have interest and already had paid for it, for the right of selling it with their hardware. Are they to blame that Amiga wasn't able to deliver? If they have nothing valuable at least they present something that is...

How safe would one be with a Amiga contract if Amiga keep changing its terms?


And please tell us how *YOU* know so much about the inside stuff that happened between these two companies?
Listening to one side cannot be a good way of obtaining facts.

IMHO both did things that made the deal break. If I remember correctly wasn't Genesi supposed to provide Amiga Inc. with docs on the Pegasos2 hardware so porting of AmigaDE could be made? It seems to me neither was interested in the deal anymore after the court ruling.
OS4 is a completely different thing. This is what I suppose BBRV really wanted from the beginning, but Amiga Inc. said AmigaDE was the "only" future at the time. So they got what they signed for. No reason to cry afterwards.

Last edited by Samwel on 18-Dec-2006 at 03:55 AM.

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